how far will you go?

shazlew · Sep 18, 2004

hi all this is something to get a good gossip going i think?
i have been thinking a lot as of late to pet rabbits health!
as i breeder i know the stick i have to contend with to me it means nothing just something to occupy the bored minds of some to others they take this much to heart but thats another story!
i as both a breeder and rescuer tend to like my buns to be buns sure they all are pets all get treated as such at times too but i like them to live as near as normal rabbit life as poss!
i mean by this space diet exercise housing amusement you know?
but what i want to know is how far would you go to keep a much loved pet alive?
i am not talking how much one can afford more like what you would see kind to put a sick bun through?
i had a bun of my boys very nice boy who will never be replaced in any other bun to cross my doorstep he had abscess in jaw and i spent 400 quid on 1 op! that was easy bit the vet didn't want to do it i begged they did and i am sure my poor little man suffered a great deal no i know he did! he ate he run about the house did bun stuff but this means nothing a wild rabbit would do the same until eaten or killed!
at the time i thought i had done a great thing and yes he got better took a long while but now i think was i cruel?
if it was me i wouldn't want to live like that so why should he?
now i thought how far will you all go to save a pet when do you draw the line?

Tamsin · Sep 18, 2004

he ate he run about the house did bun stuff but this means nothing a wild rabbit would do the same until eaten or killed!

I think the trouble with comparision to a wild bun is that a pet bun can have treatment/support. A leg injury in a wild rabbit would be a death sentence where as in a pet rabbit it could just mean two weeks cage rest. A wild rabbits lifespan is shorter than a pet bun because the slightest problem renders them more vulnerable than others in the group (survival of the fitest). Rabbits do hide illness well but only up until a certain point. Perhaps one of the members with experience with wild bunnies, I think one or two have done studies on them, can shed a little more light.

I think this article is good - http://www.rabbit.org/journal/2-8/quality-of-life.html

It asks

1. Appetite: does she still like to eat?
2. Affection: does she exchange affection with you or any other companion?
3. Attitude: is she interested? Does she like to watch, sniff, and listen to the things going on around her? Does she still show pride and try to groom herself?

Tam[/quote]

shazlew · Sep 18, 2004

1. Appetite: does she still like to eat?
2. Affection: does she exchange affection with you or any other companion?
3. Attitude: is she interested? Does she like to watch, sniff, and listen to the things going on around her? Does she still show pride and try to groom herself?

Tam[/quote][/quote]

now here i have to disagree as a very sick bun can still eat!
a very sick bun can still like a fuss!
and also can show some intrest in there surroundings!

i have had many many buns share my life 1000's in fact!
either my own or rescue and i have seen many sick and many sicknesses!
my mum had a little chap who broke his leg it was waving in the breeze broke through so it bled! painfull a?
he hopped about spreading his blood he ate he lived life to the full the vets couldnt understand they had to sedate him for a few days after the op as he wouldn't calm down and he had his leg pinned which needed to mend!
so will this mean he didn't feel pain?
i think not many still think rabbits are like humans and treat them as such but this is not the case at all.

Tamsin · Sep 18, 2004

So are you saying that there are no indications of whether a bun is in pain or not?

Tam

taylor v 109 · Sep 18, 2004

Just to but in till you get a reply some rabbits react differently, some show they are in pain and the majorety dont, they will carry on not wanting to show any weakness. I to have had some appaling cases come in, one forinstance was a rabbit that had no bottom left he was being eaten alice by maggots all you could see was a capping hole were his rear end was. This rabbit continude to eat, would you say it was not in pain? . I know that the maggots release a numbing efect when they start feeding, but when it had lost most of its rear end youve got to agree there is pain. To many people only think of there own pain at the thought of loosing a much loved pet and dont do the right thing. I also know someone who LOVED their rabbit so much that when it was paralized in both back legs he thought it was okay to keep it indoors on a rug. The rabbit was okay he was eating and drinking okay, he was washed once a day when the owner came home from work, got a bit sore through wee burn but that was okay. Then after a month on the rug it developed bed sores because it couldnt turn over still eating and drinking must be okay. Eventualy the sores turned into ulcers, hes on painrelief now hes allright he can still drag himself a few yards, still eating and drinking. After another week had gone by this man is still saying hes alright theres life in him yet it not his time yet. The rabbit after all this pain and suffering gave up and stoped eating, only then after the rabbit had lost 3 pound in weight did he put him out off his misery. Would you call this right.?Did this rabbit diserve better. We have complete control over our pets and we must know when to draw the line. If you carnt then dont take the resposability for their wellbeing. val

Tamsin · Sep 18, 2004

I'm not saying that eating or not is the yes/no judge of whether a rabbit is suffering. There are many things I would take into consideration one of which would be eating habbits.

I've had a bun paralized in the backlegs. He lived inside and got around a room without problems, the type of injury meant it wasn't causing him pain. However when he later developed urine scolding that was painful and wasn't going to go away, that was the point he was pts. From your description of the other bun yes personally I would probably have drawn the line earlier, unhealing sores and weight loss are to me a sign that a bun could be suffering and if as in this case there is no chance of recovery I would have had the bun pts.

Another bun of mine had pastrella and needed several weeks of nursing including daily meds and at one point syringe feeding. However throughout this he still had an interest in life and got up to mistief. He fully recovered and lived another two years. I don't think a bun is smart enough to play with a toy to make a preditor think he's not in pain.

I think people have to make there own mind up in conjuction with their vet, each case is different so its not possible to set a precise point at which a bun should or shouldn't be pts.

Tam

taylor v 109 · Sep 19, 2004

Pasturella is a different matter a rabbit can be got back on an even keel with that, provinding you only have the one rabbit i see nothing wrong with that, but if your rabbit hasent got the use of its back legs then that is no life for an active animal and is only a question of time before it turns into pain why let it get that far why not pts before it gets that bad, i know whot id do. val

Tamsin · Sep 19, 2004

Because he wasn't in pain and he was still interested in life and doing bunny things, he could eat, cuddle, play, interact with other rabbits and move around. The only thing he couldn't do was cope with multiple levels. I don't think he was suffering or had a poor quality of life, that might not be the same for another rabbit in the same situation but it was true for him. He wasn't the sort of rabbit that raced up and down he was a lazy, lay about sort of chap to start with. As for pain, the only possible pain was from sore skin which in a bunny that had the potential to heal would not of been bad enough to warrant putting to sleep.

Personally I wouldn't put down a happy animal that wasn't in pain or distress. That doesn't mean I don't reassess how that animal is constantly so if it does have the potential to start suffering I would change the decision. I don't think any any point he sufferered, he certainly wasn't in any real pain from the sore skin but at that point I knew if he was left he would start to be in pain and suffer and he had no chance of recovery so he was pts.

The bun I'm refering to (Rusty btw) was in a stable condition for many months. Treating a bun with pastrella or another illness you don't know what the outcome will be. A bun with an illness will suffer to some degree or other, for example a bun with bloat will be in pain. However I'm sure the majority of owners and vets would still treat rather than pts. There are almost two seperate issues here, long term quality of life and with illnesses what level of short term suffering is justified by the potential of recovery.

Tam

Bertie · Sep 19, 2004

I would not only base my decision on how ill the rabbit was at the time, but his quality and length of life after he'd recovered. A younger rabbit would have that much more life to look forward to at the other end, that a couple of months of suffering would mean a lot less in the scale scheme of things. It sounds a bit mercenary, but without the luxury of the rabbit telling you what's wrong and how he feels, it's necessary to bring in other criteria to judge by.

It's easy to just assume the animal is in pain and give up, and it's easy for people's comments about cruelty to get to you when you're treating a sick animal because you'll always have that doubt in the back of your mind about whether you're doing the right thing.

I suppose I just tend to assume that they are in pain, or at least feeling very sorry for themselves and then think ahead to how long they'll feel like that and if they're likely to make a full recovery. I'm not sure how fair it would be for me to keep a paralysed rabbit alive with all my other rabbits in the house, or how much time I could really devote to it, so that would be a very difficult decision. I think a lot would depend on how my other rabbits treated it.

Basically, I would make each decision based on the rabbit, the illness, the likelihood of recovery and just exactly how much the bunny would have to go through on the road to recovery as well as my ability to care for that rabbit and nurse it through.

anon101 · Sep 19, 2004

Bertie said:
Basically, I would make each decision based on the rabbit, the illness, the likelihood of recovery and just exactly how much the bunny would have to go through on the road to recovery as well as my ability to care for that rabbit and nurse it through.

I would agree with this 100%.

Louise

shazlew · Sep 19, 2004

how do you all know what quailty of life it would have?
i know a nice little girl or should i say knew icey she was a star she had middle ear infection you know the sort causing them to roll around in circles we took her to vets in 4 months it had come back 5 times yes she improved after everytreatment then that wore off and back to square one we had high hopes for her future thought she would be ok but she went on to suffer this 5 times till we said goodbye!
saying goodbye to a animals is not a easy thing but it is the last thing you can do when time is right!
what i want to know is when do you know the time is right? how do you know you have done enough maybe more harm than good?
with our charity they put a lot of money into a local vet who fights hard to find cures for various things but even they will tell us you have done enough let them go!
i now know when is enough i think! but what would you put your rabbit though to keep it with you a few more months?

Tamsin · Sep 19, 2004

Unfortunately none of us can predict the future. When you treat an illness there is the knowledge that it will all be in vain and the bun will die anyway. But unless you are advocating putting a bun to sleep at the first sign of any illness thats a calculated risk you have to take.

I couldn't predict how long Rusty would have what to me was a good quality life it could have been weeks, months or years. I wouldn't put an old rabbit to sleep just because they are unlikely to have much time left either.

Tam

Bunnyboarding · Sep 19, 2004

Hi Shaz & Val,

As a person involved very much with the welfare of animals I have, up until now, enjoyed visiting such forums & being able to give the benefit of my knowledge in order to help others.

However, just recently i have discovered areas of rabbit ownership that i no longer want to part of & have been very saddened at the state of affairs on several websites involving illnesses of various rabbits, & the attacking of anyone who dares offer any well-meaning advice. Is it just me, or does there seem to be a lot of very sick rabbits out there at present? What a concerns me is how far an individual would determine reasonable until making the tough decision to 'call it a day'. There are individuals & groups who are not only anti-breeder but anti-euthanasia, & it is this bias that is influencing the judgment of others. I feel equally as sad for the lovely lady who bred one of these bunnies to turn on her computer & see shocking images & storyline of the continuing struggle of a rabbit she so reluctantly let go. Yet we still hear anti-breeder.

I have studied bereavement in pet owners & how human beings deal with these situations. After following several of these stories, I personally feel sorry for these owners as I feel they are actually struggling to come to terms with their own grief of letting their beloved pet 'go' & therefore delaying the process.

I think its great people are so dedicated to try & save their pet but think people should realise that what goes on inside a rabbit is often more involved than what we see on the 'outside' Bit like a story Sharon mentioned recently regarding her friend's rabbit who had been fighting myxo for weeks (or was that months, Sharon?), although still eating & when they decided enough was enough, the rabbit was post-mortemed & to their horror was gangrenous inside!!

Its also a bit like my rabbit with Snuffles who was eating fine but sneezing out muck(who i isolated). I put it off a few weeks before having him PTS & when he went, rivers of fluid poured out of his poor lungs. I'd never have guessed he had that much in his lungs. The suffering goes on inside.A rabbit as a natural animal of prey, will 'hide' its pain & suffering so that a predator (which, we, as humans still are!) will not spot its weakness & attack it.

I wish you all well whatever you all do, I hope everybody makes the right decisions for the best of their pets & any other pets they may also own at the time of disease.

Tamsin · Sep 19, 2004

So your saying that at the first sign of an illness such as snuffles a rabbit should be pts?

Adele · Sep 19, 2004

Hi there, this is a really difficult and emotive issue, and I can see elements from most of the previous postings that I agree with.
Looking at rabbits firstly as prey animals, this means that they do indeed hide pain, and illness very well in most cases, and I understand why Cheryl is concerned that we cannot rely upon external gauges per say to tell if a bunny is really suffering or not.

On the other hand, we do have some good clues to follow as guidelines(But I stress these are GUIDELINES only), such as is the rabbit still eating, mobile, interested in its environment etc.

It is about finding a balance and this is truly very hard to do, especially when ones own emotional attachment to the bunny comes into play.
Personally, we have many old bunnies(and probably well over 500 rabbits in our care over the years) with ongoing health problems in the Sanctuary, and I guess i get a feel for an individual bunny, and notice when things change.
For example, we had one rabbit with a medley of problems and the Vet suggested that she be PTS....the bunny was active, interested in hopping around the house and eating well....I then asked the vet in light of this, why he felt the bunny should be PTS.
His answer was that as the rabbit was incontinent it was a lot of work for me to keep cleaning up after her, and keeping her dry and legs free of sores from scolding of urine.
In my personal situation though, I was happy to do the necessary work, but can understand that some other people may not have the confidence or experience to care for a special needs bunny.
I decided to keep the bunny going until I one day noticed that she was hanging her head and looking depressed....she had been lively and her usual active self until the day before.....we took her to the Vets that day to do the deed, as she had told me that enough was enough.
Every rabbit is an individual though, and we have to be careful not to treat every bunny the same, but watch them carefully and make decisions as to the best of our capabilities for that individual bunny.

I have had paralysed bunnies too (Like Tamsin) and although I agree that life is somewhat limited mobility wise, that if the Owner of the rabbit can provide a good, stimulating environment , then the rabbit can still have a good quality of life.
I feel that Pet rabbits should not be compared to Wild Bunnies as a guide on which to base decisions such as if a rabbit should be PTS or not.
Domestic rabbits tend to survive more illnesses than wild rabbits as they have benefit of medicines and different (and normally!) much less taxing environmental conditions to live in.
A paralysed rabbit for example(who is fit in every other way and not suffering as such..apart from loss of some mobility) would not survive in the wild, but may thrive in a house environment with the proper husbandry.
If we euthanaised Humans who were not perfect limb wise, then think of all wonderful individuals and their input in the World we would loose....I do not think Rabbits who are not the ideal should be condemed to be PTS automatically as they are not perfect in our eyes...it truly depends on other factors too, and Tamsin sounds like she found a good balance with her paralysed Bunny.
We all have to make decisions that we feel personally comfortable with, and what is in our eyes best for our rabbit(s).
Where there is life there is hope, and we all suffer both emotionally and physically at some stage, that is life for you.
We cannot protect rabbits from all pain and suffering much as we want to....the suffering is worthwhile IF it ends in health bein regained, suffering is not worthwhile if the prospect is to remain the same (at best) or deteriorate yet further.
We can only hope that we can find a coping mechanism when we find ourselves in the midst of ethical decisions such as this, and do our utmost to ensure to the best of our ability that a rabbit never suffers unnecessarily.

anon101 · Sep 19, 2004

Tamsin said:
So your saying that at the first sign of an illness such as snuffles a rabbit should be pts?

Tam,

After reading Bunnyboarding's post I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion?

Louise

anon101 · Sep 19, 2004

Adele said:
I feel that Pet rabbits should not be compared to Wild Bunnies as a guide on which to base decisions such as if a rabbit should be PTS or not.
Domestic rabbits tend to survive more illnesses than wild rabbits as they have benefit of medicines and different (and normally!) much less taxing environmental conditions to live in.

I agree with a lot of your post Adele but this point I don’t.

I believe Domestic and Wild Rabbit's are both very different but very similar. Domestic Rabbit's show Wild Rabbit behaviour.

For example the pain issue. Both specie's of Rabbit hide pain. This is a natural instinct of a Wild or a Domestic Rabbit.

I feel there's a lot to learn from Wild Rabbit's in understanding our Domestic kept Rabbits.

Domestic Rabbit’s haven’t been kept as pets that long. What a 100 years or so?

Louise

Adele · Sep 19, 2004

ellepotter said:
Adele said:

I feel that Pet rabbits should not be compared to Wild Bunnies as the main guide on which to base decisions such as if a rabbit should be PTS or not.
Domestic rabbits tend to survive more illnesses than wild rabbits as they have benefit of medicines and different (and normally!) much less taxing environmental conditions to live in.

Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of your post Adele but this point I don’t.

I believe Domestic and Wild Rabbit's are both very different but very similar. Domestic Rabbit's show Wild Rabbit behaviour.

Yes I agree with this Louise, but I also feel that we are in a better position to help domestic bunnies more readily to recover from illnesses, and with drug intervention can do so if we choose.
********************************************************

For example the pain issue. Both specie's of Rabbit hide pain. This is a natural instinct of a Wild or a Domestic Rabbit.

I agree with this fact also
***********************************************************
I feel there's a lot to learn from Wild Rabbit's in understanding our Domestic kept Rabbits.

I do not dispute this fact either, and we have several wild rabbits that were hand reared and now live in the Sanctuary.
It is very interesting to compare behaviours, and the wild bunnies do display different behaviour to some extent that domestic bunnies, or perhaps it is not so much different, as to more heightened behaviour than domestic bunnies....domestic bunnies are alert for attack by predators for eg, but not quite as alert as their wild counterparts as they do not need to be, living in a more secure environement.
****************************************************
Domestic Rabbit’s haven’t been kept as pets that long. What a 100 years or so?
I think it is even longer than that Louise.

Louise

Tamsin · Sep 19, 2004

ellepotter said:
Tamsin said:

So your saying that at the first sign of an illness such as snuffles a rabbit should be pts?

Click to expand...

Tam,

After reading Bunnyboarding's post I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion?

Louise

If a person believes that its not possible to tell whether a rabbit is in a pain/suffering then does that mean they assume it is and hense put to sleep?

For example, the bunny with snuffles that had fluid in the lungs... if you had known from the start then presumably it would have pts earlier? If you now have another rabbit with snuffles would you put it to sleep at the start to prevent a repeat? Or do you give it a chance knowing that a rabbit can make a recovery.

I hope that makes it clearer

Tam

shazlew · Sep 20, 2004

Tamsin said:
So your saying that at the first sign of an illness such as snuffles a rabbit should be pts?

no i am not but in some cases yes i guess so!
bit of both really we do rehome the odd snotty animals would never pass the rabbit on i have right now lucky for me i snotty i nasty and 1 teeth prob they have not been put to sleep!
if i had say myxi or vhd or some reacurring problem then yes i would say good bye!
i wouldnt allow a rabbit of mine to suffer!

how far will you go?

Warren Scout

Administrator

Warren Scout

Administrator

Mama Doe

Administrator

Mama Doe

Administrator

Alpha Buck

Banned

Warren Scout

Administrator

Alpha Buck

Administrator

Warren Veteran

Banned

Banned

Warren Veteran

Administrator

Warren Scout

Similar threads