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Holly Go-Lightly
12-09-2004, 02:05 PM
Bah!

I've got 3 buns with snuffles! All on Baytril. Any idea how long it takes to get rid of? It doesn't seem too serious as they are all pretty spry and are jumping around but I can tell you right now they hate taking their meds!

Lizzie
12-09-2004, 02:39 PM
Well, I don't have any personal experience of it - touch wood - but when I mentioned to my vet that one of my wabbits was sneezing a lot, he mentioned snuffles and how tenacious it can be!!! Fortunately, it turned out to be a blade of grass about 4 cm long up Florence's nose causing the sneezing but he was most adamant that I should bring her in if it were snuffles. I daresay it varies from bun to bun and if it hasn't hit them too hard perhaps it will clear up fairly quickly - hope so anyway. :wink:

Adele
12-09-2004, 02:51 PM
Hi Holly, I think you should see a difference in about a week(but it could take several weeks to a month to clear properly), but I believe that although Snuffles(Proper) can be controlled, bunnies always have it in their systems with flair ups when the bunny is low (or stressed) for any reason.
It is afairly common condition though and if managed properly it should not affect bunnies too much.
Just a query...when you say SNUFFLES..are you just describing their symptoms..ie running noses etc. or are you saying they have SNUFFLES proper as there is a difference.

The risk is if the bunnies should get secondary infections, so Baytril and the Herb extract Echnicacea is quite good as it helps build up their immunity.
If you want details about Echnicacea, please email me later..I am going out now so may not be able to get back to you today, but just as soon as I can I will :D

Fluffybunny
12-09-2004, 02:55 PM
Hi.

Snuffles (or Pasturella as it is called) is always in the system - it just shows itself upon times of stress when the rabbit is run-down & unable to fight off the disease.

Unfortunatley you will never get totally rid of the disease - I know of some being on Baytril all their lives. :roll:

How many bunnies in total do you have? Chances are these will get it too unless the 3 with Snuffles are quarentined away from the others, and you wash hands/clothing before touching the healthy ones. They can share nothing between the helathy & unhealthy ones, eg run, hutch, toys, food bowls, lawn etc.

Sorry to put a negative spin on things but this is how devastating this disease is - it can travel by indirect contact, just being blown by the wind :cry: :cry:

Rachel x

Tamsin
12-09-2004, 03:04 PM
Jasper had snuffles, his was really bad though and took about 6/8weeks of daily baytril injections to clear up the symptoms, it was complicated by teeth problems and and abcess that formed in his nose though.

He did have a couple of later flare ups but they were relatively mild and were gone by the end of a 14 day course of baytril.

Tam

Holly Go-Lightly
12-09-2004, 03:39 PM
Hmmm it is pretty contagious. Cleo had it first and because she was so energetic and happy the vet and I put it down to allergies. Her chest sounded fine. Now Caesar and Charlie have it too. They are all sneezing, soooo back to the vets. She checked their chests which sound fine too but they are a bit wet around the nose, although not discoloured. They are all in with Holly (clan of 4) and she has zero symptoms.
I am keen not to take her away from Caesar as they pine for each other.
Could they all just have a cold? Or is it the same thing?
They are defo not stressed. They all live in the house and are the most relaxed friendly rabbits in the world.
Hopefully the Baytril works quickly. Adele can you givde some more info by PM on the E-stuff (can't remember word)? Ta.

Holly Go-Lightly
12-09-2004, 03:42 PM
Just a query...when you say SNUFFLES..are you just describing their symptoms..ie running noses etc. or are you saying they have SNUFFLES proper as there is a difference.

Wondered about that actually. I am describing symptoms. My vet said it was Pasturella virus. But they don't really seem that ill. They just sneeze alot and have wet noses.

The risk is if the bunnies should get secondary infections, so Baytril and the Herb extract Echnicacea is quite good as it helps build up their immunity.
If you want details about Echnicacea, please email me later..I am going out now so may not be able to get back to you today, but just as soon as I can I will :D

Yes please Adele :D

Tamsin
12-09-2004, 03:49 PM
I wouldn't seperate a group that live together, chances are if it is pastrulla then the others would already have caught it living so close together.

If you have other groups of buns then it would be a good idea to try to minimise the possibility of cross infection. :)

Tam

Holly Go-Lightly
12-09-2004, 03:49 PM
About secondary infections.....

Hmmm. Charlie has a lump on her back where she had a Myxi jab a couple of weeks ago. It is perfectly round (3/4 inch). My vet said it might be some type of scar tissue. I am starting to think not. She has developed a smaller perfectly round lump directly beside it.
When I got Holly and Caesar from the petshop (my first buns), Caesar was badly bitten and developed a nasty abscess.
Charlie has never broken her skin and it feels softer than an abscess. Anyone had any experience like this? Do rabbits get tumours?

The vet is going to put her out on Wed to have a look see. I'll keep you posted.

Dorothy
12-09-2004, 04:49 PM
I have 3 bunnies with Pasteurella. They get various symptoms such as sneezing, thick white nasal discharge, thick white eye discharge. They are off and on Baytril, blocked up nose is loosened using Bisolvin powder you get from the vet and disolve in water and syringe oraly, I call it their snot dissolving medicine :roll: :lol: . Echinacea is also good to boost the immune system. Also the Bach Flower Remedy Crab Apple is good to cleanse the system of toxins.
I keep my bunnies separate from my others at all times as it does spread between bunnies easily. With proper management you can keep it under control. The most important thing is to give Baytril when needed to stop any upper respiritory tract infections going into the lower respiritory tract where the infection is more difficult to treat and more serious.
Your bunnies don't sound too bad at the momment. If the nasal discharge is clear it may just be an allergy. You need to dicuss it more with the vet. I have had different opinions from vets in the same practice. One said I could keep the bunies with my others when I got things under control. There is no way I would take that advice as I would not put my other bunnies at the slightest risk.
Good luck with the bunnies and keep us posted as to how they are.
Hope Charlie is ok. Sometimes bunnies get fatty lumps. But yes they can get tumours, often they are benign. Let us know what the vet finds.
Good luck.

Adele
12-09-2004, 07:02 PM
Hi Fluffy bunny

Echnicacea extract...give two drops of ecnicacea extract in a full bottle of water each day for a week but no more.
Then give a two week break, and on the third week repeat as above.

You can buy Ecnicacea from all good health shops.
Also give vitamins in water(Must be Rabbit Vitamin drops specifically from a Pet Shop) ..follow dosage on bottle carefully...follow dosage for one week, leave off for two weeks and then on the third week, give vitamins daily.
We do not give vitamin drops continuously though as bunnies can have too much of a good thing and become toxicated so follow instructions carefully and just give for one week in three.

Dorothy mentionned some other things to help your bunnies too...best of luck and please tell us how they progress.
We find that the above routine helps prevent the amount of time Snuffles reoccurs and lessens the severity...it is not just about treatment at the time, but preventative husbandry too(boosting immunity with Echnicacea etc)...hope your bunnies are fully recovered very soon :D

Lazylops
12-09-2004, 07:29 PM
Hello I think some excellent advice has been given and baytril is at the moment the best medical control, although as someone experiencing it at the moment am certainly investigating the echinea supplement as well.

As Fluffybunny has already said pasturella is alway present it is just dependent on whether it manifests itself in the form of snuffles or not. Not all bunnies with sneezes have snuffles. This can be tested for and then your vet can then prescribe the most effective antibiotic for it. Once the bunny has it, the immune system is weakened so a good diet is necessary to help maintain the rabbit at optimum health to try to keep it able to fight. Snuffles can lead to Upper Respiratory problems (Rhinitus), but with correct care and medication they should be able to cope. It can be more stressful for the rabbit with snuffles to be separated from its friend, so confirm that this is the issue prior to taking any action.

gina paul
12-09-2004, 08:52 PM
Bah!

I've got 3 buns with snuffles! All on Baytril. Any idea how long it takes to get rid of? It doesn't seem too serious as they are all pretty spry and are jumping around but I can tell you right now they hate taking their meds!

Hi , my rabbit cheeky has snuffles or should I say pasturella which is the same virus according to my vet . He has had this since he was 6 months old and he is now 5 and a half . He has been on baytril now for the last 6 months , only 5ml a day to keep on top of it . In many cases you will find that it doesn,t actually go away but can be controlled , I have done alot of research into this and found that there are so many strains and cultures , thankfully cheeky has an upper tract infection which causes the sneezing , runny eyes etc ... there is another culture which can cause organ failure , breathing probs etc.. As with any type of pasturella " which I,m assuming your rabbit has if the vet has called it snuffles " there is the risk of abscesses , cheeky had one in his mouth but thankfully the vet caught it in time .
Cheeky has lived for 5 years with this so it goes to show that it is not a death sentence and just requires careful monitoring by you and the vet .
Sadly I would have loved to have got cheeky a companion but he would pass the infection onto another rabbit so I can,t , it was recommended to me on the boards to give cheeky a drop of echinachea (1 drop a day for a week) and then repeat after 3 weeks , i spoke to my vet and he thinks it would not do any harm at all.
I,m also having to change cheeky,s litter tray 3 times a day as any odour from his urine causes the snuffles to get worse , it must be the amonia in it that troubles the condition . I have also eliminated sawdust from his hutch after learning from a rabbit specialist in Edinburgh that if the sawdust gets wet it gives of a chemical which can trigger problems as well .
Every day at about 5pm cheeky knows that its time for his medication and he always makes a run for the gap under the bed . ha ha , but what I have done is added a tiny bit of sugar free ribena to it and it makes it that little bit easier for him , (my vet recommended that one ) . Apart from the odd little flare up which we are at the moment controllng , he is fine and the episodes between flare ups are getting farther and farther apart .
You may find that your buns will get over it and it can and does happen so good luck with that . I do say that the best tonic for my bunny is tlc and lots of kisses and cuddles .

Bunnyboarding
12-09-2004, 09:04 PM
Hi there,

Some good advice has been given by others on here, i would just like to add not to separate your existing group of rabbits from each other as even ones that do not look affected are either resistant to the disease or are symptomless carriers. Splitting them would make little difference by now & if anything would possibly upset them for being separated & depress them further, so carry on as normal.

Your main concern is keeping this group isolated from any others & if you do have other rabbits, see to them first & be cautious as to washing hands, changing your jumper if you've been cuddling the affected group first, etc

Best Wishes

gina paul
12-09-2004, 09:10 PM
Hi Cheryl , one quick question tho and i,m sorry that it seems depressing but I haven,t asked the vet , will the pasturella get him in the end ??? he is 5 and a half now and it does worry me . :(

Holly Go-Lightly
13-09-2004, 03:52 PM
Gag! Barf! That stuff smells!!!!!

Bunnyboarding
13-09-2004, 09:48 PM
Hi Cheryl , one quick question tho and i,m sorry that it seems depressing but I haven,t asked the vet , will the pasturella get him in the end ??? he is 5 and a half now and it does worry me . :(

Hi Gina,

No its a perfectly sensible question. Lets just put it this way, it is obviously a major weakness that your rabbit (or any rabbit with obvious symptoms) now has & once Pasteurella takes hold, as it obviously has, it is very likely (although not 100% definitive) that this is going to be a deciding factor at some point. Complications often arise such as Pneumonia, head tilt, etc. Although if the rabbit is happy & having a good quality of life then this is what matters. The time may come & it could be very straightforward & totally out of the blue, but for now you have to focus on what i have already said & that is for as long as a rabbit has quality of life then there is no need to worry any further.

This indeed sounds very harsh, but this is such a common problem in rabbits & many (reputable) breeders often have to make some serious decisions as soon as any such illness is detected, for the simple welfare of the rest of their rabbits. It does spread very rapidly & cause fatality, but what it also does is turn many rabbits into either symptomless carriers or chronic sufferers. What most people MUST remember is that because the vet puts the rabbit on Baytril (or whatever else) & it takes away all the symptoms, it does not take away the highly infectious element that remains & this illness will not go away without making itself known first.

So many vets tell you "Oh that's Ok, w'ell just put him/her on antibiotics" but many fail to mention that it is still infectious & by this time its infected any other rabbits too.
I, like most rabbit owners have encountered this in one of my rabbits & he had good days & he had gunky days, however, when the weight started dropping off & his teeth started to wear unevenly (not eating adequately due to illness) I quibbled with myself to have him put down. I finally plucked up the courage to do so (he was a favourite character) & knew as i held him as he drifted away, that i had made the best decision.... as a river of fluid was suddenly released from his lungs which poured almost continuously across the table & onto the floor....i could never have comprehended so much could be contained in the lungs of one little rabbit. It made me realise that it must have been more unpleasant for him than i'd known & rather like drowning. It is also known that rabbits hide their illness so we do not necessarily see it until it is in advanced stages. So this certainly provided more food for thought.

In a pet situation, however you have been able to make the decision to keep your pet treated & comfortable to prolong his life & that really is all you can do for as long as he is eating well & happy :)

gina paul
13-09-2004, 11:13 PM
thanks for that advice , I really appreciate an honest answer . the vet has checked his lungs and taken swabs etc , he was also admitted to the animal hospital in edinburgh where the top rabbit vet "ann meredith" checked him over and she was very impressed at how he was doing . He now goes every 3 months to edinburgh for check ups and so far so good . But i,d never let him suffer as you rightly said as it would be selfish for me to hang onto him if he was suffering so much , I love him so much that if and when the time comes I would not let him suffer and give him the kindess end to the suffering .
As for now tho , he is doing brilliantly and there is no feeding him . :)

doorkeeper
14-09-2004, 10:42 AM
My vet said that Pasturella is endemic in the rabbit population and is passed from mother to kits rather than rabbit to rabbit. They say that most rabbits will have it in some form and that it is only when a rabbit is otherwise compromised that it will flare up.

This fits with the fact that Merlin has not infected any of my other rabbits with it despite having it flare up regularly.
I asked the vet about my becoming a fosterer as I put it off after getting approved by the RSPCA because of Merlin's snuffles. He said that that shouldn't be a concern as most rabbits will already be carriers, and that I should worry more about other rabbits infecting mine with other things.

How does this view fit with others experience? Has anyone seen a rabbit pass it on to a healthy fit companion?

Bunnyboarding
14-09-2004, 02:27 PM
The answer to that question Louise, is most definately, YES.

The rabbit i mentioned in my previous post went onto infect several unrelated rabbits of other breeds that had not been in direct contact with him, kept in hutches several feet apart outside.


Had i not taken the correct precautions there would've been more rabbits in this predicament.

This is when it all becomes endemic. No disrepect to your vet but i have worked with many vets of varying opinions on the subject & to be honest i've heard it all! :roll:

I'm open-minded about most things but once witnessed first-hand then certain things become very apparent.

All rabbit harbour the bacteria Pasteurella in a harmless form in their nasal cavities. However, it is not until a time of stress (eg. environment change, etc) that this bacteria multiplies to an infectious state.;Pasterellosis Once a rabbit shows these symptoms they must be isolated from others to prevent disease spread & a very close eye kept on the rest of the rabbits.

It is for this reason that sneezing rabbits with snotty noses are not allowed in show pens in rabbit shows. If this is noticed in an exhibitors rabbits then they are asked to box their rabbit up & remove it from the hall.

This is especially important to multiple rabbit keepers or breeders who would be irresponsible to let this disease run rife through their stock.

Adele
14-09-2004, 02:36 PM
Cheryl I totally agree with your above information on Pasturella, it is infectious as you correctly say, but only when it is really active in a bunny, as it has times when it can lay fairly dormant. :D

I think you have explained the situation very well, and I could not have said it better myself.
I would have tried though If I was not so busy here rushing around getting 36 rabbits ready for their vaccinations. I do not know who is more nervous at the thought of the needle, me or the rabbits!!....never mind, we always have a cup of tea and biscuits after the Vet has done his Sanctuary rounds, so that should calm me down a little, or the Vet can give me a shot of something else.
:lol: :lol:

Holly Go-Lightly
14-09-2004, 08:51 PM
Hiya,

Caesar was MEGA healthy and he caught "a cold" from Cleo after I bonded Cleo & Charlie with Holly and Caesar. It is defo contageous. I just hope that it is a good sign that they have all sneezed half as much after 2 days on Baytril. I am secretly hoping it's not too serious.

:(

Holly Go-Lightly
16-09-2004, 08:04 AM
Good luck with the bunnies and keep us posted as to how they are.
Hope Charlie is ok. Sometimes bunnies get fatty lumps. But yes they can get tumours, often they are benign. Let us know what the vet finds.
Good luck.

All are back from the vet and we go again on Monday.

Charlie was spayed yesterday and her lumps were removed. They were fibrous tissue right in the spot where she got her myxi jab. She has a couple of stiches on her back and also on her tum from the spay. I am trying to leave her alone and rest with her pals. She has other ideas. She has already eaten a bowl of food and a handful of spinach. I can tell she wants to go out and play. Maybe in a few more days. The Bayrtil has really helped her. I haven't heard her sneeze for 2 days and her nose is as dry as I've ever seen it.

Cleo was not spayed yesterday! That is because she is a he without the bits :shock:
You could have knocked me over with a feather. We are going to wait for another month to see if any testicles drop. If not the vet will go in and see if there are any in the abdomen that can be removed. I am just glad Charlie didn't get pregnant. What a nightmare. I must say that it explains a lot behaviour wise. I just thought I had a weird one for a while but now all has become clear :lol: Again the Baytril seems to have worked a treat for her/him.

Caesars sneezing is still pretty bad. I wonder if I can use something like Vicks Vapor rub near him or on him to make his breathing easier. He sounds very stuffed up but doesn't have the runny nose. Hopefully I'll know more on Monday.

Bunnyboarding
16-09-2004, 09:59 AM
You could put a couple of drops of Olbas oil on a swab in front of the hutch or something.

Or steam bath by putting rabbit in a wire basket & postioning in front of a steaming bowl with few drops Olbas oil in it, then cover both the rabbit basket & bowl with a large towel so that the rabbit can breathe the fumes.

Holly Go-Lightly
16-09-2004, 07:34 PM
Thinking positively...

As my buns have responded brilliantly to Baytril (3 days), could it be possible that this is not as serious as Pasturella? Maybe a bunny cold?
I am not that clued up on illness as this is my first one.
I am hoping that maybe it's not so terribly serious after all, or wishfull thinking?

gina paul
16-09-2004, 08:01 PM
it could just hopefully be a cold but cheeky who has had pasturella for 5 years is now on baytril for the rest of his life , he,s been on it , off it , on it , off it and so on , he has got better but then only got ill again when the baytril was stopped . He has now been on the baytril for 4 weeks now and is only getting 0.5 ml a day but fingers , toes and everything else crossed , he is doing brilliantly . it seems to be doing the job .
its hard to say if your rabbits have pasturella until either they come off the baytril and get ill again or the vets takes a swab from their noses and checks the culture. Cheeky had this done and it came back as pasturella , but hey , chin up , Cheekybun has had it 5 years and he,s still here , i,ve treble checked with my vet and the edinburgh small animal hospital that he is not suffering as I would not have him go through that .
as long as you keep an eye on them , they eat well , and most importantly have you then they will hopefully just live with it like cheeky does and be none the worse for it . it just takes a bit of nursing on your part which i,m sure you are great at .

gina .

Holly Go-Lightly
16-09-2004, 08:04 PM
it could just hopefully be a cold but cheeky who has had pasturella for 5 years is now on baytril for the rest of his life , he,s been on it , off it , on it , off it and so on , he has got better but then only got ill again when the baytril was stopped . He has now been on the baytril for 4 weeks now and is only getting 0.5 ml a day but fingers , toes and everything else crossed , he is doing brilliantly . it seems to be doing the job .
its hard to say if your rabbits have pasturella until either they come off the baytril and get ill again or the vets takes a swab from their noses and checks the culture. Cheeky had this done and it came back as pasturella , but hey , chin up , Cheekybun has had it 5 years and he,s still here , i,ve treble checked with my vet and the edinburgh small animal hospital that he is not suffering as I would not have him go through that .
as long as you keep an eye on them , they eat well , and most importantly have you then they will hopefully just live with it like cheeky does and be none the worse for it . it just takes a bit of nursing on your part which i,m sure you are great at .

gina .

Didn't know about getting a swab to tell for sure. I'll do that this week. I prefer to know.

KR
Andrea

Bunnyboarding
16-09-2004, 08:37 PM
Hi hate to say this but there is very rarely such a thing as a bunny cold - as i said Baytril clears the symptoms lovely, BUT it is not actually getting rid of the problem itself.

Also Pasteurella swabs are often inaccurate, a negative result does not necessarily mean they are clear as what is swabbed from a distal site such as the nose does not necessarily give a true indication of what is in the rest of the respiratory tract. You can also get a false positive result as rabbits naturally harbour the Pasteurella bacteria in its harmless form.

Yes, it is all totally confusing stuff, but that is really how it is.

gina paul
16-09-2004, 08:42 PM
it is really really confusing . Cheeky has had the swab done twice and both came back postive but I understand what you are saying. As you may know already , Cheekys is defo pasturella , I wish his swab was wrong but I wouldn,t be as lucky as that .

Bunnyboarding
16-09-2004, 08:46 PM
The thing is, Pasteurella is so common, that more often than not, this is what it is. If your rabbit is sneezing/has been sneezing white or yellow gunk, then i would say its better to assume that it is this.