EC - can it keep reappearing after treatment?

My 11 year old Mr Bubble has been treated for ec twice now, with only about a month between treatments. His initial blood titre was very high, but had gone down on the second test.

All was fine until he was at the vet on Wednesday. He gets terribly stressed at the vet, and now I'm sure I see signs of ec starting again. Can it keep reappearing? He finished the last treatment about 19 days ago.

I am not a health expert but I would imagine it can. Maybe they never get rid of the EC and it rears its ugly head at a time of stress.

From my experience and loss with E.c, yes the bun can relapse Stress is always a big factor with illness and I agree with Tonibun, I don't think it ever leaves.

Thank you both. I'm worried he relapses so quickly.

I'm just waiting for the vet to open to try to speak to his usual vet. I really don't want to drag him in and add to his stress.

I have had a couple of rabbits who needed repeated EC treatment. One was a very severe case who was permanently on metacam and frequently on the 28 day Panacur course (sometimes for 2 consecutive cycles). If I have a rabbit who has had an episode of EC, I now automatically do another round of Panacur if they seem to be going downhill at all. From my experience, they do seem to to be prone to repeated episodes if they have shown classic symptoms which have previously responded to EC treatment (ie head tilt, rear leg weakness). They do seem to respond to the treatment (eg within 2 weeks), which makes me suspect that some never completely shake off the EC organism.

I think it may pay to be extra vigilant on the disinfection for susceptible rabbits eg weekly bleach all hard surfaces as routine and avoid being on grass (or move the area they are on monthly and leave a big gap before using the same areas again for any rabbit) to manage the risk of reinfection either from themselves or from other rabbits nearby.

Shimmer said:

I have had a couple of rabbits who needed repeated EC treatment. One was a very severe case who was permanently on metacam and frequently on the 28 day Panacur course (sometimes for 2 consecutive cycles). If I have a rabbit who has had an episode of EC, I now automatically do another round of Panacur if they seem to be going downhill at all. From my experience, they do seem to to be prone to repeated episodes if they have shown classic symptoms which have previously responded to EC treatment (ie head tilt, rear leg weakness). They do seem to respond to the treatment (eg within 2 weeks), which makes me suspect that some never completely shake off the EC organism.

I think it may pay to be extra vigilant on the disinfection for susceptible rabbits eg weekly bleach all hard surfaces as routine and avoid being on grass (or move the area they are on monthly and leave a big gap before using the same areas again for any rabbit) to manage the risk of reinfection either from themselves or from other rabbits nearby.

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Thank you Shimmer. Bubble is indoors but I will pay more attention to deep cleaning.

All seemed fine with him, until the visit to the vet this week. Bubble hasn't had head tilt yet, he usually urinates anywhere, has eye problems and just seems quieter. This time he has been circling a bit as well as the urinating, and isn't eating great, even with 2 gut stimulants.

Whilst I don't think I am fully up to date on it all, I think the situation is that the treatment (word I can never spell - active ingredient in Panacur and Lapizole!) only reduces spores down. I have a feeling that rabbits probably naturally carry it anyway (like humans with candida), and it can just get out of control, in either its form or amount in the body.

Plus there is the issue of the ideal length of the course, which seems open for debate. Also, the cleaning of the environment to prevent reinfection.

Added to this, there is the fact that EC permanently damages organs, so you never know exactly what is causing the symptoms.

The vet wants him started on treatment again. Bubble was due an X-ray on Tuesday for a crackle in one lung. I really think it will knock him back too much . He has no outward symptoms with the lung, but I know that doesn't mean that it's ok.

Unless ec can cause damage?

SarahP said:

Whilst I don't think I am fully up to date on it all, I think the situation is that the treatment (word I can never spell - active ingredient in Panacur and Lapizole!) only reduces spores down. I have a feeling that rabbits probably naturally carry it anyway (like humans with candida), and it can just get out of control, in either its form or amount in the body.

Plus there is the issue of the ideal length of the course, which seems open for debate. Also, the cleaning of the environment to prevent reinfection.

Added to this, there is the fact that EC permanently damages organs, so you never know exactly what is causing the symptoms.

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Thank you Sarah. Bubbles last course was quite long, just over the 28 days. I'm sure it's been the stress of the vet visit because he was doing really well until then, and he always gets so stressed out going there.

I'm sorry Bubbles is poorly I think the truthful answer is that no-one really knows whether ec ever goes away or not. From memory, in the original tests done for panacur it was shown that ec was not found in the brains after death...BUT those tests also involved giving panacur before the ec challenge, which is not the same as treating once the ec has become invasive. FHB told us about a rabbit who had titre tested as ec+ and then several years later was tested again and was ec-ve , which does suggest that it is at least possible for it to be eliminated.

What is known is that ec can cause permanent damage as Sarah says, so whether any recurrent symptoms are due to a rearing up of a latent ec infection, or whether it's purely down to damage already caused, it's probably pretty hard to tell Hope Bubbles is ok x

Thank you Santa. I'm quite worried about him. As well as the urinating anywhere, he has been circling and seems to spend most of his time lying around. I wish I hadn't taken him to the vet because it was just for a recheck

weedug said:

Thank you Santa. I'm quite worried about him. As well as the urinating anywhere, he has been circling and seems to spend most of his time lying around. I wish I hadn't taken him to the vet because it was just for a recheck

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Just wanted to ask, is the circling due to loss of balance? Is he trying to balance himself out but gets himself into a constant circle?

Unfortunately, you had to take him to the vets. That's not your fault and it's better he's checked up on than left. I do hope he's okay, I have a soft spot for those that have had E.c. Keep us in the loop.

Although never correctly titred, Mimzy was most likely a victim of EC that caused his head tilt. We gave him and the other two bunnies the panacur regimen, I cleaned like a madwoman EVERY day of the first 30-60 days and then just got into a regular routine of doing so out of deference to my OCD more than anything else. No, I don't think once they have it that it ever really goes away. Sadly, like mites, it can come out when they are stressed or immune compromised, at least that's my experience.

Mimzy never traveled well after tilting, which was why I really had to evaluate bringing him to Oregon with me on the plane. But he did surprisingly well with the journey, it was only about a week after arriving that I saw his health plummet...a bit of a delayed reaction but we got him on baytril to right him again and had to do an extra long course. He doesn't tilt, anymore per se, he just gets 'down' and you can tell he's not feeling well.

I can completely empathize with Bubble's condition, it sounds very familiar. I really hope you're not going to have to take him anywhere again, although if he's already not well and this has to be an xray under GA then it's unlikely your vet will want to do it until he's feeling stronger again.

Is there anything they can do prophylactically (is that even a word?) that will help with the lung crackling? I am assuming they do not want to randomly prescribe abx but perhaps if it's a matter of the devil you know, then it might be worth the risk? Only you know how Bubble will do, but I hope something can help him out. I can imagine the stress must be affecting you as well. (((((((((((Huge hugs)))))))))

All the best for Bubble to come out of this latest relapse and be feeling more himself again soon. xxxx

The RWAF provides this leaflet about EC

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/pdfs/Ecuniculi_Lft.pdf

Thank you for the replies.

Limit - I'm not sure if he is off balance. It's not constant but is obviously distressing him when it happens. Sometimes it's just a few hops and sometimes he goes round a few times. It's a very tight circle, not the circling round my feet he used to do. Thankfully he's not had such a bad episode as yesterday morning, just shorter spells of it.

MimzMum - maybe it is just the journey rather than the actual vet that causes the problem. Bubble is due at the vet again on Tuesday, to have his eyes rechecked to see if the expensive drops are helping and for the X-ray. I'm not happy with the X-ray just now, because Bubble has reacted so badly after his last visit. And if I put it off until he feels better, it will probably just set him back again. I've already asked for abx, but he was on a 2 week course of Baytril which finished a couple of weeks ago. He had the crackle before and still has it. I don't know how much the X-ray getting done would be for Bubble's benefit rather than just knowing what's going on.

Jane - thanks for the leaflet. I wonder then if the stress is just aggravating the damage, rather than an actual reinfection. We've always assumed it was ec because after a short time on treatment, Bubble always improves, until the next vet visit. I will retreat again this time because of the circling, but am not sure what to do about the vet visits. The vet wants to check his eyes regularly because if the ulcers and I'm not sure how happy they would be to give me the dye to use at home.