Rabbit Vaccinaton Testing

[anon101]

A tough subject I have recently come across is:

Rabbit's are tested on to see if Myxi and VHD vaccination's work and are safe to use on our pet buns.

http://www.rds-online.org.uk/


I've been looking into Homeopathic remedies to help prevent VHD, Mxyi and Pasturella in Rabbit's.

I think it’s morally wrong to vaccinate your bun's when other bun's have to suffer to see if the vaccine is safe etc. Saying that mine are done but when they’re next due I will seriously be considering the Homeopathic approach.

It seems so hypocritical that we boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble who test on animal's but then we get our animal's vaccinated with vaccine's that have been tested on animal's.

Strange world we live in!

What are people's views???

Louise

[Tamsin]

When human medical research comes up one arguement is that results of animal testing aren't reliable for human use. Instead we should test on people - which sounds logical. If you want drugs to exist for animals then there is going to be a need for testing of some kind on the animals they are for.

Vaccines already exist, not using them is likely to result in more animals suffering than not using them.

Homeopathic medicines need to be tested as much as non, if they are not how can will tell if they offer any protection?

Testing does not necesaily mean suffering. Giving x rabbits the standard vaccine and x the homeopathic and monitoring which get the disease is a form of testing too!

Tamsin

[Adele]

Louise I understand your thoughts on this subject, but vaccinations (despite possible health risks and ethically dilemas) are the only way to protect your bunny as far as possible.
I know that sometimes vaccinations can fail and rabbits occasionally develop problems post vaccination, but in over 400 rabbits, we have experienced few side affects and most of our bunnies have been aged 5 years plus and not in ideal health when vaccinated.
I think to personally have the experience of a bunny infected with full blown Myxomatosis or VHD is heartbreaking to out it mildly, and I for one am not prepared to take any risks by leaving the bunnies unvaccinated in the name of using Natural alternatives.
The homeopathic approach is a reasonable option say if for example your bunny had a severe reaction to a vaccine previously and you were advised it was unsafe for your bunny to be vaccinated the standard way in future.
All the current research supports the fact that vaccinations offer the highest level of protection available for your bunny, and although some vaccines may fail, or side affects develop, the majority of bunnies are routinely vaccinated and live long and healthy lives.

[anon101]

I believe lab Rabbits have actually been given Myxi etc and then vaccinated to see if the vaccine work's.

"Homeopathic medicines need to be tested as much as non, if they are not how can will tell if they offer any protection? "

The thing with Homeopathic remedie’s is there natural and has very minor if any side affects. They’re safer to use. Cheaper and less stressful for the animal.

Vaccine's have many side affect's, there not reliable as we have recently found out with the Mxyi vaccine, there expensive, its stressful to the buns giving them.

The company’s who make vaccines have got us in an iron grip. We don’t know any better. They make millions out of us. I know for a fact a rabbit vaccine on average costs around £2.00 to make/produce and our Vets charge us around £20.00 for it! There's got to be a con somewhere.

Homeopathic medicine has been proven to work in humans so I don’t see why it shouldn’t in animals. I am still looking into it for Rabbits, as I believe this is a relatively new thing for them.

I would be interested to know how many Rabbits actually died of Mxyi and VHD before the vaccines came out and how many still do. Anybody know where I should look for this info?

Louise

[Tamsin]

The thing with Homeopathic remedie's is there natural and have very minior if any side affects. There safer to use. Cheaper and less stressful for the animal.

I don't neccesarily mean side effects but whether the remedie actually prevents myxi/vhd. Currently there is no evidence either way so there is no way to tell whether homeopathic treatment is more, less or equally effective.

Homeopathic medicine has been proven to work in human's so I dont see why it should'nt in animals.

It might well do but I don't want to risk my rabbits to "might do" or "should dos". Baring in mind some drugs work on animals but don't on people, rabbits have different digestive mechanisms and metabolisms to humans and treatments would need to be adjusted for this. Without testing how can we tell what the correct adjustments are?

I'm not saying its not a viable alternative but I would want some sort of scientif evidence before betting my buns life on it.

Tam

[Bob]

Louise, could you point me to some research that the homoeopathic solution towards both myxi and VHD actually works? I have looked into this and was put off by the lack of suitable reference material to prove that it actually works.

[emilou]

A woman came into my shop the other day and told me none of her children have been vaccinated for anything...that is how epidemics are caused. Sensitive and interesting issue.

[bunnytales]

This is a heart wrenching topic and I also feel that its a terrible thought to think of bunnies being injected with these two viruses in the name of research but I think until there is a proven alternative which has the medical stamp of approval I just couldn't risk my buns to an alternative.

[Bob]

It seems so hypocritical that we boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble who test on animal's but then we get our animal's vaccinated with vaccine's that have been tested on animal's.
Louise

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".

Would you describe yourself as an animal rights activist?

[Tamsin]

I think Louise may have been using the royal "we". Proctor and Gamble are probably the best known/biggest company associated with animal testing.

Would you describe yourself as an animal rights activist?

Thats quite a general term. Also bare in mind members affiliations to groups are entirely their own business.

Tam

[taylor v 109]

Id love to use a homipathic vacine but whos rabbits are going to test it? How are you going to know if its works unless they are given mixi or vhd. I do not like testing on animals any more than anyone else but how would you do it.? val

[Adele]

Val you have got to the very heart of the dilema...who is going to risk their beloved bunnies to try and test the homeopathic nodules.
:?

In reality if anyone tried to do test this on a large scale and in a laboratory set up, there would be uproar from many quarters saying that it was wrong and not done with consideration to the bunnies welfare.

It is very well saying that alternatives to the standard practice are good to use, IF alternatives can be realistically offered and practical difficulties overcome to test them properly.
Unfortunately I do not believe this is the case at the current time, but we have to keep working towards change for the future, and hopefully someone forward thinking will throw up an answer as to how to proceed for the best., without putting bunnies lives at risk in the process.

I am happy to stay with the 98% plus success rate of the current vaccinations though, as 98 bunnies out of 100 saved from these vile diseases is worth what is realistically a minimal risk.

[Bob]

Tamsin it was a very valid question and I don't doubt that Louise is more than capabale of answering herself considering her verbose comments here.

I asked a specific question which was not a "general term at all". Again, Iam sure that Louise, who is very vocal, can manage to answer that without your help...

The question was put towards her in responce to a debate that she instigated. I think that she should be given the courtesy of replying.
_______________________
Footnote :

Tht sounded really heavy and serious - sorry but my point is still valid, just did not want it to sound so serious!

[emilou]

I think this forum is for giving your opinions while accepting other peoples opinions may be different from yours and not superior. Nobody has taken away Louise's rite to reply, i find your aggressive acusory messages very offensive in this environment where we all air our opinions freely, Tamsin was not speaking on Louise's behalf anyway she speaks of her own volition nobody here believes Louise needs help to answer your messages Bob.

[Adele]

Hello sorry to interupt this thread, but I feel that the discussion is going away from the question posed by EllePotter originally, which was to do with testing vaccinations for rabbits.

We appreciate that you may feel very strongly about certain issues, and discussion is freely allowed, but if postings are becoming personalised and asking questions of Members that could possibly infringe their privacy then the Diplomats are at liberty to step in and offer advice where we can.

EllePotter can answer your Questions Bob if she so wishes, but please can Members be careful not to inadvertently corner other Members into discussing things that they may, or may not wish to remain confidential.

The Forum is not the place for challenging people to present personal information, just a general debate amongst rabbit loving friends and associates.
Please remember that the Forum Charter asks you to show respect for other Forum Members, whatever their personal beliefs.
Thank you :D
Please continue the debate, as it is a very interesting topic.

[Tamsin]

I'm sure Louise will answer for herself too :)

Perhaps I could have explained better, when I said general term I intended to remind people that a single term for something can lead to misconceptions. For example, we have recently found out how refering to all people that produce rabbits as breeders without any qualification can lead to offence. Similarly peoples ideas of what an animal rights activist is no doubt vary. So if Louise simply answers yes/no to your question what she thinks she is defining herself as might be very different to what you, I or other forum members think that means.

I hope that explains it a little better. I'm just trying to anticipate possible problems in advance so we can keep discussions going smoothly :D

Tam

[taylor v 109]

Adele, the point i was making was if you have a treatment for anything how do you know if it works, if you want to use a completly natural remedy for say mixi how are you going to know it works unless your rabbit gets mixi, on the whole i dont agree with testing but if none were ever done were would we be. val

[Bob]

I have just spent ages working on a reply and then told to shut it. i DO NOT agree with the closure of this debate. If you wanna get dictorial then make it consistant. Sheesh and I thought breeder debates were cencored!

BUT I will comply and not post my reply

[Tamsin]

We haven't told members not to post/discuss any topic just asked that you be careful about the way you do it/asking personal questions. Nor have we removed any postings or dictated what people can discuss.

I'm confused why you think we are censoring or in what way we have been inconsistant.

Tamsin

[bunnyhuggger]

Bob, nobody told you to shut it :lol: and nobody said they were going to close it either UNLESS it starts to offend individuals, what's wrong with that. I think it would be a shame to cut this topic at this point due to pettiness. Surely we can all toe the line and remain civil to each other?

[Lizzie]

I would just like to say something from a very personal and extremely poignant viewpoint! There is never a scientific answer without a "control". My beautiful and very precious cocker spaniel, Harriet, had to have her left hind leg amputated in April this year due to what we now know to be a pernicious osteosarcoma: there was no way that I was going to subject my faithful pal to chemotherapy, which is much less refined in animals than it is in human beings, so I opted with my lovely vet's fervent approval to go down the homeopathic route and we have been administering such medication now for 16 weeks - it has been extremely time-consuming, taking 2 hours every single evening of every single week but oh so well worth it to see how well Harriet is doing.

However, none of us knows for sure just why she is doing so well - is it the homeopathic medication? Or is it the fact that the original surgery was, by my vet's recent admission, so very radical? The truth is we do not know - my regular vet was obviously quite impressed when examining her 2 weeks ago to find her in such good condition but without a "control" we will never be sure whether this is due to the radical and timely surgery or the homeopathic medication. The one certain thing is that I was and would never be prepared to take any chances but without some chances being taken somewhere along the line, there would be no progress and I daresay that my precious girl would not be where she is today, in the condition that she is, if someone had not dared to risk an experiment at some point.

Whatever the answer is I will always be grateful to both my conventional vet and my homeopathic vet for the extra time that I have been able to spend with this lovely, adorable and very precious creature.

[sunshine]

:thumb: Well said and done Lizzie!

[anon101]

Louise, could you point me to some research that the homoeopathic solution towards both myxi and VHD actually works? I have looked into this and was put off by the lack of suitable reference material to prove that it actually works.

As yet I have not come across any research that show's the Homeopathic way work's. Hence why I say in my posts I am still looking into it.

I am as we speak in touch with two company’s that make Homeopathic remedies. I am hoping to find out more information over the next few weeks.

At the moment there is no Vaccine for Pasturella. There is a homeopathic remedy out there to help protect your bun's from it.

If I don’t try the Mxyi and VHD one's I will certainly be trying the Pasturella one.

I believe Shantel on this form is using the Mxyi Homeopathic remedy??

Maybe she could let us know how she is getting on?

Louise

[anon101]

A woman came into my shop the other day and told me none of her children have been vaccinated for anything...that is how epidemics are caused. Sensitive and interesting issue.

I also know a family that would not let there then children have their vaccines. There all now well into there 20's and there some of the healthiest people I know.

I think there reason's where that a close friend to them had, had there child vaccinated and had some very serious side affects from the vaccine resulting in server disabilities.

After hearing something like that especially from a friend it would certainly make me think twice about vaccinating my child.

Another example would be my OH family. All his brother's and sister's we never vaccinated against anything and they have never caught anything. There all in there 30's now.

I would not say these are the people that start epidemics. These are people that are going with what they believe is right.

It must be an extremely tough decision for parent's to make with all this conflicting information on vaccines.

Louise

[anon101]

It seems so hypocritical that we boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble who test on animal's but then we get our animal's vaccinated with vaccine's that have been tested on animal's.
Louise

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".

Would you describe yourself as an animal rights activist?

Why do you ask?

Are you?

I'm an animal right's supporter not activist.

Louise

[anon101]

[quote=ellepotter]

It seems so hypocritical that we boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble who test on animal's but then we get our animal's vaccinated with vaccine's that have been tested on animal's.
Louise

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".quote]

I meant people who believe in animal right's/welfare and avoid products that are tested on animal's. I would assume that would be the majority of us.

Do you avoid company's like P&G Bob?

Louise

[Bob]

Interesting comment. What do you mean by the "we" boycott companies like Proctor and Gamble".

I meant people who believe in animal right's/welfare and avoid products that are tested on animal's. I would assume that would be the majority of us.

Do you avoid company's like P&G Bob?

Louise

Thank you for clarifying that Louise and no, I do not avoid P&G at all. I am actually rather partial to thier tea bags :wink:

On a more serious note, I possibly share your passion for animal welfare but have little time for animal rights.
Animal rights (IMO) is more about making people feel better rather than actual doing anything worthwhile for animals.

Perhaps on this one we had better agree to disagree!!

Best wishes

[Yvonne]

re: pasturella vaccine - a vaccine has been trialled and the results were postive but the cost of mass producing the vaccine against the expected return means it is unlikely it will become available in the near future. 3 of my rabbits were vacinated against it as I purchased them from a breeder involved in the trials but this was over 12mths ago so I doubt the vaccine is still effective.

Yvonne

[Adele]

re: pasturella vaccine - a vaccine has been trialled and the results were postive but the cost of mass producing the vaccine against the expected return means it is unlikely it will become available in the near future.

Yvonne
Thats very interesting to know Yvonne, shame it all has to come down to money in the end isnt it, never mind, there is some hope on the horizon at least :D

[Pendragon]

Getting back to the original subject - personally I am dubious about homoeopathic vaccines and would not choose to use them against life-threatening diseases.

For those illnesses and diseases which don't have vaccines, I might consider it.

My reasons are thus: some years ago a well known breeder of Burmese cats decided to use homoeopathic vaccine against Feline Infectious Enteritis (also known as Panleucopaenia) which is a killer. She ended up with an epidemic of FIE in her cats and lost several.

All cats taken to shows muct have current up to date vaccination certificates for FIE (Feline Calicivirus and Herpesvirus inoculations are optional), and the GCCF (Governing Council of the Cat Fancy) now states that homoeopathic vaccines for FIE are not permissible.

In the olden days before vaccines were available, FIE was known as "show fever" and a great many cats would die from it after a show. In Victorian times when cat shows began, it was said that a show appearance was a "death warrant" for a cat.... When vaccines became available in the 1950's, the changes were amazing and it became safe to show them for the first time.

FIE is now fairly uncommon as most cats are routinely vaccinated against it, but can be endemic in unvaccinated feral populations. The experience above using homoeopathic vaccines illustrates how much the conventional vaccination does protect them.... and I wouldn't like to gamble with a killer disease.

[anon101]

Getting back to the original subject - personally I am dubious about homoeopathic vaccines and would not choose to use them against life-threatening diseases.



One thing I would like to make clear is these Homeopathic remedie's are not in a vaccine/injection form. There in a tablet form or a tincture (liquid form) that you dilute in the Rabbits water.

Louise

[Pendragon]

One thing I would like to make clear is these Homeopathic remedie's are not in a vaccine/injection form. There in a tablet form or a tincture (liquid form) that you dilute in the Rabbits water.


Good point Louise.... you are correct there :)

However, knowing about the experience of the cat person, I will choose full conventional vaccination or no vaccination at all... half-measures - to me - don't appear to be worthwhile and can induce a sense of false security.

During a myxomatosis outbreak in my own rabbits 28 years ago I had to specially order vaccine from my vets.... it took a week to arrive and I was shown by the vet how to vaccinate my own (I was 14 years old at the time!). That vaccine was "Fibroma of Shope" which was the only one available back then.

I do wonder about "live" vaccines as in cats, as giving a live Calici/Herpesvirus vaccine can induce a temporary mild form of the disease while it activates the antibodies.

Hearing that the current Myxomavirus vaccine is live makes me cautious, since in some cases, while cats are undergoing the transition, they can end up with permanent problems with calici/herpesvirus. In most cases drug companies are choosing to give killed vaccines wherever possible and I don't think any "live" cat vaccines are available now... they were hard to find even 20 years ago.... I had my first litter of kittens done by live vaccine as that is what my local vets used, but never again.... they really did get sick, and I had to tell their new owners that, and they could not go to new homes for another 2 weeks... nobody anticipating welcoming a fit & healthy new pet to their home is going to like hearing that, regardless of the cause! Many dishonest breeders used that kind of thing as an excuse, to cover up a subclinical infection of calici/herpesvirus... but mine were tested clear.

The main problem is that while the cats were going through the transition after vaccination, they were actually shedding the virus which could infect susceptible/non vaccinated cats, or even induce a flare up in vaccinated ones. It was said that ones vaccinated by the live virus were stronger and more resistant than ones given killed vaccines, but at what cost?

I am cynical yes - and I am also wondering if the current Myxoma vaccine is possibly triggering effects.... our hands are in the drug companies and if they'd made a faulty batch, we'd know about it first.... it would probably take a lawsuit to persuade them they were wrong or had made a mistake, ****-up or just got it wrong. It happens in cat & dog vaccines all the time! Why not rabbit ones? And also consider: why did the cat vaccine manufacturers abandon live vaccines at least 15 years ago, in favour of "killed" ?

Hmmm..... I am pondering and thinking aloud here but I am sure this angle of thought will be new to some....

[shantel]

I use homeopathic medicines for my rabbits - for myxi and vhd. I've been using it for several months, and my rabbits are in good health. However, like everybody else I am aware there is no sure fire evidence that the homepathic treatment works, other than knowing other people who have 'vaccinated' this way for many years without any fatalities. I have given this route of a lot of thought, and have researched homeopathy as best I can and decided this was the right thing for my bunnies.

[gina paul]

cheeky is due his booster this coming thursday . he gets the myxo one first and then goes back for the vhd 2 weeks later . he hasn,t ever had any problems but this thread has caused me some concern and made me think , i,ll probably discuss it with his vet first .

[anon101]

Shantel,

Do you use Ainsworth's?

Louise

[shantel]

Yes I do Louise

[Jo]

I work as a veterinary nurse in a practice which is very rabbit friendly. I have attended many courses and C.P.D.s in rabbit health, anaesthesia and analgesia.I have seven rabbits at the moment and have kept them for over twenty years. I also rehabilitate and hand rear lots of wild rabbits.

I must admit to being a little astonished at the thread of "should we test rabbit vaccines on rabbits" where would you propose we test them?
I nurse bunnies with myxo quite often although most end up dead. VHD rabbits are more than likely dead before we see them and I have the joyous task of assisting in their post mortems.

Medicines, in my opinion, NEED to be tested and if it is a rabbit vaccine tested on a rabbit, so be it! Distasteful, but very neccessary.

I am also suspicious about homeopathic vaccines, a vaccine in itself works by introducing a very small amount of the disease into the body to allow the bodies antibodies a chance to recognise and then fight the said illness..........I really don't feel homeopathic vaccines can do this.

I suggest that anyone querying the value of a vaccination should spend a few weeks nursing myxo rabbits or wiping owners tears. In my opinion, vaccines are priceless!

Just my opinion....
Regards, Jo

[Bob]

Good evening Jo! ;-)

[Nix]

I am a bit worried by the attitude that "natural" alternatives are safer... Plant extracts or whatever are not necessarily without side effects or dangers, it's just that they haven't been tested thoroughly so we don't know.

Look at St John's Wort - natural treatment for depression, been around for ages. Then a few years ago it was realised that it interferes with the effects of the contraceptive pill! So if it can affect the working of a medicine what else could it be doing to you?

I think that just because something is natural doesn't make it better or safer. If you use a natural alternative because you don't agree with animal testing then this is another matter.

The Catch-22 is that the only way to be sure that a vaccine is safe is for if it to have been tested. If you want your animals to survive then other animals will have had to die. This doesn't necessarily mean in lab tests where they are deliberately infected; even in trials like the pasteurella one above, if there was a "placebo group" then some of them may have died in the pursuit of the vaccine.

I am against most animal testing (I mean this in the vivisection sense). I don't think that living things should die because I want a new brand of soap. As Louise has said testing medicine for humans on animals is pointless because there are documented cases where the treatments work on the animal but are ineffectual or even harmful to humans. But when the treatment is for animals who do you suggest we test it on then? The key, I think, is to find humane methods of testing these things. Yes animals may die because they are infected by the disease but I think I could live with that thought so long as it was not done deliberately.

[bunnymyhoney57]

I have been through hell recently after one of my 15 buns getting Mxyi from somewhere and 3 more of them succumbing to the terrible disease after that. I am ashamed to say that I had not had any of them vaccinated.I have had most of them for 7 years and due to the cost not bothered before. I am interested in the thread regarding a 'bad batch' possibility as one of the buns who caught it was well before the jab and became ill a few hours after having the jab !!!!!!!! My vet says its not possible he could have gotten ill because of the jab but I am suspicious. Anyone any thoughts?
lynne

[Andi, Boy of Destiny!]

There is considerable evidence that homeopathic treatments do not work any better than a placebo - a simple Google search will confirm this. The very method of preparation of a homeopathic treatment should make this pretty obvious!

[Tamsin]

I am interested in the thread regarding a 'bad batch' possibility as one of the buns who caught it was well before the jab and became ill a few hours after having the jab !!!!!!!! My vet says its not possible he could have gotten ill because of the jab but I am suspicious.

I suppose that if a bun was incubating myxi and had the jab the extra work the immune system was under because of the jab could give the myxi the opportunity to speed up its assult. Thats why your vet checks over the buns before vaccinating to make sure they don't have any signs illness. The jab itself isn't myxi so I don't think it can't cause myxi. The incubation period is 5-14 days so even if the jab was faulty it would have been several days rather than hours for the symptoms to show.

Tam