Do Rescues contribute towards over population? [Archive]

Bob

04-09-2004, 10:41 AM

There have been some interesting debates regarding “breeders” here and their “contribution” towards the rescue population. I have my own opinion on the reasons why animals end up in rescues and it has nothing to do with any group.

However, in the interests of balanced debate, I wonder how many of you have actually considered the impact that the existence of “rescues” themselves actually contributes towards the numbers of abandoned animals today or indeed that not all “rescues” are the same and there are bad and good rescues out there just as there are good and bad pet owners and good and bad breeders?

A delicate subject as many of you are rescuers!! I am not posting this to stir up bad feelings or encourage a negative debate. I do know and appreciate that, taken the wrong way, this could lead to a flame war. I simply feel that it is a valid point and needs debate.

I promise to be on my best behaviour if you will LOL! I probably not even get any replies but if you do, and you are a rescuer, please do not take this personally!

There are good and bad in every aspect of society out there and I do not group them all together under one heading. Equally I do not feel that it is right to ignore the bad things or the negative effects that the good things might have simply because it is not politically correct to do so…

Dons tin helmet......

AmberUK

04-09-2004, 10:55 AM

happybunny

04-09-2004, 10:59 AM

bunnyhuggger

04-09-2004, 11:04 AM

Do some people (the kind that should never be allowed to have any) purchase animals knowing that when they get bored they can hand them over to a rescue centre without hassle? In some cases trade the old version for a baby?

Sadly yes this does happen, when we agree to rescue a bun we always remove all the rabbit's belongings ie. hutch, run, bowls, bottles, hay, sawdust etc., so that if they decide to get a new bun, they have to buy all the equipment all over again.

bunnyhuggger

04-09-2004, 11:11 AM

I have my own opinion on the reasons why animals end up in rescues and it has nothing to do with any group.

Bob, can I ask what your opinion is?

Bob

04-09-2004, 11:28 AM

Bob, can I ask what your opinion is?

ROFL I knew that was coming! It is no great shakes and I hope that this debate will naturally lead onto it.

What is your opinion on this actual topic? do you think that Rescues actually contribute towards the problem?, do you think that thier are bad and good rescues just as there are bad and good pet owners or breeders?

nicola

04-09-2004, 11:35 AM

I think sometimes certain rescues make it TOO easy for people to give up their animals but then on the otherhand if they didnt make it easy animals would be badly treated if the owners didnt want them anymore.I do know of a rescue who as far as i am concerned is adding to the bunny population.The lady concerned breeds a few of her rescue bunnies before getting them neutred to sell to make money to run her rescue.Now i agree it takes alot of money to run a recue but i dont think breeding bunnies to sell for profit is the way to fund it.

Tamsin

04-09-2004, 11:37 AM

I think removing the hutch etc. is a good way to stop people going straight back out for another bunny.

Some rescues are better than others, I think neutering is quite important. Most rescues wouldn't let a dog or cat go without neutering but there are still some that need to catch up on rabbits.

There are also some places that call themselves rescues that the majority of other rescues wouldn't want anything to do with.

I'm not sure whether many buy thinking its ok I can dump it at a rescue though, as a lot seem unaware that rescues exist and just dump anywhere.

It is an interesting thought on the government, rescues do a lot of work and get no susidy for it. If the govt was instead left to deal with it all they might be more inclined to do something. Not a very practical option though ;)

Tam

AmberUK

04-09-2004, 11:43 AM

Its amazing that the only recognised voice animals have is a charity - The RSPCA. There should be a government body for it that way you know when you have a problem it doesn't just get lost in the mass of other work they do.

bunnyhuggger

04-09-2004, 11:44 AM

Bob, you're a toe-rag :lol:

This is one of my thoughts:
If there were no rescues, what would happen to the unwanted rabbits? I have already been in the position of having to decide wether or not to take a litter of 6 12 week old kits, I decided not to take them on for several reasons, but the main reason being I was not going to clean up after someone else had made the mess. The owner was advised about neutering however, this was ignored (and still is being ignored). He has decided to keep 4 of the original litter and wants to get rid the the mentioned 6 remaining ones (again, no intention of neutering) I cannot begin to tell you how guilty I feel about not taking in the 6 kits. But why should I make life easier for him by thinking he can use our rescue as a dumping ground. He made his bed, he can lie in it.

What will happen to the kits? Who knows...............

If there were no rescues, I expect many would be culled, release into the wild, sold at pet auctions, left to die...........

As well as rescues, there are sanctuaries. For the interest of debate, do you have any opinions on those?

happybunny

04-09-2004, 12:20 PM

Although I posted earlier that some people are encouraged to buy animals at they know they can get rid as and when they want I believe the problem is really down to the goverment and pet shops (and of course the people who buy animals without fully understanding the commitment and responsibilty).

The goverment should enforce stricter laws and pet shops should not allow animals to be bought on a whim.

Should all animals bought from pet shops be neutered (where possible!) to stop home breeding? I know far to many peolpe who think its sweet to at least have 1 litter before get the animal neutered (which in most cases only occurs to them when it is a cat or a dog).

Is 16 really a good age to allow a child to buy an animal and also is this actually enforced?

sunshine

04-09-2004, 12:27 PM

I'm with you on this one Lynda. Although it was hard for you not to take the kits, probably the same thing would have happened again and so the the vicious circle perpetuates itself.

I feel that if wasn't for rescues then many more rabbits would be killed or put to sleep as the same number of appealing and oh-so-cute little bunnies are still going to be sold from the same pet shops to the same types of people who after the initial novelty quickly wears off will want to get rid of the "burden". Every week in the yellow paper there are a number of "rabbit/s free to good home" or even more cheeky people trying to sell them for money.

I don't know about the RSPCA I know the the Scottish SPCA are grossly underfunded (I might be misquoting this but I'm sure that it costs £22,000 a day to run the SSPCA) and last year they almost had to close a couple of their rescues. So I think the SSPCA basically deals with the worst cases of animal cruelty but cannot do much more than that. Therefore I definitely see the need for animal rescues as they save the lives of numerous animals without which who knows what fate would befall them. In most cases when animals are rehomed from rescues the new owners undergo an intensive "interrogation" to make sure that they will provide adequate care for their new pet. I feel that these animals are the lucky ones in a way.

Like you said Bob there are good and bad in every area and many pets originally bought in petshops will live quality lives and be well looked after but many won't and if rescues and sanctuaries can help improve the quality of life for some of those rejected by the original owners and also educate people about rabbit welfare then I'm all for that.

Adele

04-09-2004, 12:31 PM

Hi Bob, I think you have raised an interesting topic for a debate, but please be gentle with all the kind hearted folk who run Rescues, as most work very long hours, and have constant drains on resources, just to see bunnies rehabilitated and then sent on to a forever home.
Our Sanctuary offers bunnies a forever home, but we keep the numbers of bunnies to a quite low level as we strongly endorse quality care and not quantity care. We are certainly NOT putting down any other Rabbit Rescue set up that chooses to operate in a different way, everyone does what he/ she feels comfortable with.
We Rescue some bunnies to later rehome that need rehabilitation and help with socialisation.
We take in bunnies where the original Owner is prepared to take some responsibility for the ongoing care and welfare of the bunny, usually by making some financial contribution to the bunny, especially if we offer a forever home.
This aspect is not about money, and in reality we are lucky as a Charity if we break even with costs at the end of the Year, but this is more about asking folk to take responsibilty in some way, even if they physiaclly cannot cope with looking after the bunny any longer.
We are strict about this, as we have to be, else the bunnies already here would suffer and not have all the care and attention they deserve.
It is very hard constantly turning bunnies away, but we assist in finding spaces elsewhere in other Rescues, Sanctuaries if we cannot accommodate ourselves. We have a list of Fosterers that are prepared to take bunnies in temporarily until a permanent space becomes available at the Sanctuary.
I suppose it depends upon what your personal work involves, and as mine is to rehabilitate bunnies with ongoing health or emotional problems, then this is time consuming and I could not take in huge numbers as do other Rescue Centres.
I am not sure that I agree that Rescues are themselves compounding the problem of the number of bunnies seeking a forever home. The fact is that these bunnies are HERE and do need a forever home for whatever purpose.
I believe that good Rescue Centres have more to offer than just simple Rescue......good ones offer education on bunny care and welfare in general, and ongoing help and support once the bunny is found its forever home.
:D
Please could you expand on why you feel that Rescues may be making the situation worse, we would be happy to hear what you are thinking :D

Bob

04-09-2004, 12:42 PM

I am a gentle old soul at heart :roll:

I just wanted to raise a point of debate that is rarely discussed and that is the contributions that Rescues may, or may not, actually make in contributing towards the actual rescue problem. I have the utmost respect for those that put out their own time and money to care for animals in so many ways. That however was not what the debate was about!

Predictably, that discussion seems to be drifting!

Tamsin

04-09-2004, 12:48 PM

In what way do you think they might contribute Bob? If you want us to dscuss something specific you have to say what it is ;)

Tam

Bunnyboarding

04-09-2004, 12:51 PM

[quote

when we agree to rescue a bun we always remove all the rabbit's belongings ie. hutch, run, bowls, bottles, hay, sawdust etc., so that if they decide to get a new bun, they have to buy all the equipment all over again.[/quote]

And quite rightly so, after all, you are doing taking on the work & COST of rehoming a rabbit- it seems only fair it at least comes with some belongings even if it to be used on other rescues too.

Very wise as it also removes a little temptation too.

Bob

04-09-2004, 12:56 PM

In what way do you think they might contribute Bob? If you want us to dscuss something specific you have to say what it is ;)

Tam

Tam - I think that my opening post was adequate for that :?:

bunnytales

04-09-2004, 01:03 PM

Hi Folks - Long time no speak - had a mad week this week so I'm just catching up on things on the Mad Bunny Forum.

This is a real interesting debate - but I kinda think that two things lead on from every thread which is emotive in Bunny Welfare and thats Regulation and Education.

I think without these two areas being enforced at some kinda Government Level we can only strive to chip away at Welfare Issues and make small steps of change where we can (albeit I think any change which helps animal/bunny welfare is a step in the right direction!)

Only last weekend I had a sleepless night as the two little girls next door who already have two hamsters with which they have both now become bored with and their mum has to do all the cleaning out etc had suddenly decided on impulse that they might want a bunny!!!!

I got up real early Sunday morning and did some leaflets for them on the responsibility of bunny care and mentioned that I have many good contacts for Rescue bunnys and really tried to sell the idea of not buying from a petstore on impulse - even to the extent that I offered both the two girls and their mum a crash week of bunny care helping with my two pesky bunns so they could see first hand whats involved.

Well so far it seems to have worked and no impulse bunny has arrived but I wonder for how long? :!:

But Bob - sorry I strayed slightly from your point here - the jist is I think quite rightly as you mentioned there is good and bad in all - I know Rescues who Neuter and Vaccinate all their rescue bunnies and this has got to be step in the right direction, a lot of rescues also now provide their bunnies as bonded pairs which again is brilliant and saves the bunny the solo life. :(

But just imagine if there was a government policy which enforced strict codes of conduct (not achievable me thinks!!) with perhaps an audit body who could pay visits unannnounced to Petshps/Stores, Breeders and Rescues - If they were abiding by the Welfare Bill they would have no worries about visits :idea:

Bunnyboarding

04-09-2004, 01:04 PM

My opinion on the actual question is that if the rescue is one of the genuine rescues (that neuters & does not become tempted to breed & sell babies themselves from what they are given!) then they are at least giving the animals a chance of LIFE. Other than that Bob, well you & I know what will happen to them them - it would only mean a mass cull policy. I don't beleive these rescues ADD to the number of rabbits around, I believe that society itself causes the problem in this day & age of convenience, choice & fashion

The 'bad' rescues, well, they create problems of their own!

And i agree with Lynda that you do have to be tough on people because otherwise they take everyone for a ride - i would have told the owner the same thing too. All or nothing, take your pick!

On the subject of exhibition breeders however, there are still many breeders that believe in culling (not trying to be anti breeder or anything) & their strong belief is that it is their responsibility to keep or 'deal' with surplus stock they have bred themselves as in their eyes it is far worse to end up as just another number in some of the bad pet shops & rescues. I can understand their rationale to a degree but not something i would be comfortable with in the name of a hobby.

Tamsin

04-09-2004, 01:22 PM

Well, on the face of it rescues themselves contribute very little to the population of rabbits that end up in rescue. Rescues don't generally breed and statistics point at rabbits coming into rescues that were orginally obtained from a rescue is only about 3% of the total, baring in mind many rescues have contracts stating the rabbit must be returned to them not rehomed elsewhere. Rescues in essence 'recycle rabbits' that are already part of the rabbit population.

Thats not to say rescues don't contribute in less obvious ways, such as providing a crutch for people that obtain rabbits without due thought to the responsibility.

Like breeders there are many different rescues, those that provide a perminant sactuary, those that rehome/take in etc. and the policies on rehoming and intakes varies a lot. The contribution no doubt varies as well.

Tamsin

taylor v 109

04-09-2004, 02:00 PM

I think the fact that rescue centers exsist dos perhaps make it to easy for people to give up on a pet. All centers should charge i think for taking in a pet for rehoming and all extras should be taken so its more costly to get another. On top of this i think they should bring back a licence for dogs.On the other hand you have to think whot would happen to an animal that was not wanted and there was no way a person could get rid of it. I can just imagine the fate of a neclected bunny at the bottom of the garden. It dosent bear thinking about does it. Dogs abanded on the moterways, rabbits let go in the wild. We have to be their for them, There are always going to be animals in need we have to deal with it. val

nicola

04-09-2004, 02:06 PM

How on earth can the scottish sspca spend £22,000 per day????

Tamsin

04-09-2004, 02:14 PM

How on earth can the scottish sspca spend £22,000 per day????

You can find their annual report including expediture here - http://www.scottishspca.org/about/whatwedo.html

AmberUK

04-09-2004, 02:15 PM

I think if rescued charged you would get more dumping. Look at fly tipping since they started charging buinesses. People don't like paying for something they are getting rid of. I also think some people get rid of animals as they cannot afford to look after them.

I will be the devils advocate.
I think that if rescues closed their doors tomorrow (for all types of animals) there would be a problem for a time that would come to ahead as the wild population grew due to dumping. I think that one of two things would happen either they would try and introduce a disease, but this would not be an option as there are too many types of animals to do this. The only other option would be a cull and then hopefully (but only if someone had forsight) laws to restrict ownership of animals and have owners being more responsible. Animals suffer each day due to lack of knowledge and neglect, a cull would be harsh but if it sorted out the problem in the long term I would grit my teeth. Animals die each day by the hands of people and this would be no different. But I think with human nature even a cull would not sort the problem out, long term the attitude towards animals needs to be changed. The problem is that we eat animals and test on them for medicines and so we have a double standard. Because on one hand we dote on them and then the other force feed them this problem will not easily be sorted out.

Adele

04-09-2004, 02:18 PM

How on earth can the scottish sspca spend £22,000 per day????
Nicola perhaps you could write and ask the SSPCA what their expenses go on, as it may be interesting to find out ...I do not know much about the SSPCA so cannot comment here on that Organisation, but I can say that my own much smaller and insignificant Organisation, which is a small Rabbit Sanctuary, that you would be shocked at how much our annual expenses bill amounts to, animals are very expensive to care for, especially of you provide them with everything they require to the best of your ability.

anon101

04-09-2004, 02:29 PM

Bob,

Rescues do, in some small way, contribute towards the rabbit problem in that it does make it easier for people to dump their rabbits "concience free". However, if rescues did not exsist they would in all probability just dump them in the woods. It isn't that uncommen to see multi-coloured bunnies when you go for a country walk. From the Rabbit population point of view, good rescues neuter, bad rescues dont.

It would be nice to hear your opinion Bob. You have been asked for it a few times.

Do you actually have one?

Louise

anon101

04-09-2004, 02:43 PM

Its funny cos I was thinking about this yesterday. If there were no animal rescues at all (for any type of animal) would the problem become so bad that there would have to be something done by government or a change in attitude?

If there where no animal rescue's what do you think people would do with there animal's? They would dump them!

It would probably make a minority of people think twice about getting rid of there animal's but the vast majority of people would just dump them.

It happen's now!

What would the goverment do if this dumping got out of hand due to no rescues?

If it where dog's being dumped they would sit up and take note. As dog's would move around in pack's and cause trouble. They would terrorise people, maybe even attack small cildren and animal's. The goverment would impower dog warden's to capture and kill these dog's as there would be no where for them to go.

Rabbits being dumped on the other hand would be different. Who's going to notice or mind Rabbit's being dunped? There not going to harm anybody or cause trouble. Think how many coloured Rabbit's you see in the countryside already! 10,000 more is not going to make much difference. The majority of them would die as they wouldn't be able to fend for themselves. Disease, prey, foraging for food, all things domestic rabbit's arent used to.

A world without rescue center's would be a very bad one to live in for animal's.

Louise

Adele

04-09-2004, 02:44 PM

[quote="ellepotter) From the Rabbit population point of view, good rescues neuter, bad rescues dont.
Louise[/quote]

Hello Louise and thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas with us.
I am just a little concerned that this is quite a sweeping statement, as although I understand what you mean from the rabbit population front, I feel it is unfair perhaps to put Rescues into the good or bad basis on the one point whether they neuter their bunnies or not. :?
For example, take our individual set up that takes in elderly bunnies or those with ongoing health problems (but still capable of breeding) where we have to weigh up the pros and cons of putting frail bunnies through major surgery or not.
We often opt not to, but we are not in any way contributing to increasing the bunny population, as we take responsibilty for grouping the bunnies very carefully and ensuring that un neutered bunnies remain in the Sanctuary and do not go elsewhere to be used for breeding purposes.
I hope you did not mind my using this example as an illustration, as every circumstance is unique and should be taken on its individual merits. :D

anon101

04-09-2004, 02:47 PM

Tamsin

04-09-2004, 02:48 PM

I don't think anyone is saying we should get rid of rescues! But looking at these sort of issues can help rescues find new ways to address problems and improve on their already excellent work :D

anon101

04-09-2004, 02:53 PM

In what way do you think they might contribute Bob? If you want us to dscuss something specific you have to say what it is ;)

Tam

Tam - I think that my opening post was adequate for that :?:

Can you elaborate please Bob?

Your original post isn't really that clear on what YOUR opinion is.

Louise

anon101

04-09-2004, 02:56 PM

How on earth can the scottish sspca spend £22,000 per day????

It's only just over 8 million a year when you work it out.

I can well believe they spend that. Think of all the wages they have to pay as well as the animal running cost side of things.

Louise

AmberUK

04-09-2004, 02:58 PM

[quote="ellepotter
If there where no animal rescue's what do you think people would do with there animal's? They would dump them!

It would probably make a minority of people think twice about getting rid of there animal's but the vast majority of people would just dump them.

It happen's now!

What would the goverment do if this dumping got out of hand due to no rescues?

Louise[/quote]

I think if there were no rescues of any type then there would be enough of a problem that something would be done. Probably the problem would come from too many dogs/cats as rabbits and rats etc would just blend into the wild population more.
Unfortuantly most people don't tend to do things untill there is a crisis. We wait for too many deaths froma certain drug or too many people starving in a country. If its just one or two deaths we are too busy getting on with our lives to notice it quite often takes a crisis to make people stop and think. That doesn't always mean the solution is good. I wonder if all the recuses stopped taking animals tomorrow and put all that animal care time and effort and money into trying to get new laws in or eductating the public if that would change things more. (I am not saying they don't do that at the moment but just if that was what they did soley)

anon101

04-09-2004, 03:00 PM

All centers should charge i think for taking in a pet for rehoming

If all rescues did that nobody hardly anybody would take the animals to rescue centres.

Louise

anon101

04-09-2004, 03:06 PM

[quote="ellepotter) From the Rabbit population point of view, good rescues neuter, bad rescues dont.
Louise

Hello Louise and thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas with us.
I am just a little concerned that this is quite a sweeping statement, as although I understand what you mean from the rabbit population front, I feel it is unfair perhaps to put Rescues into the good or bad basis on the one point whether they neuter their bunnies or not. :? [/quote]

Sorry this point was not clearer.

I meant from a Rabbit population point of view those rescues that dont neuter and then rehome there bun's out are adding to the rabbit population problem as there is always the risk of an accidental breeding with an un-neutered bun however careful an owner might be, therefore they are a bad rescues in my eyes.

Louise

anon101

04-09-2004, 03:12 PM

I think if there were no rescues of any type then there would be enough of a problem that something would be done. Probably the problem would come from too many dogs/cats as rabbits and rats etc would just blend into the wild population more.
Unfortuantly most people don't tend to do things untill there is a crisis. We wait for too many deaths froma certain drug or too many people starving in a country. If its just one or two deaths we are too busy getting on with our lives to notice it quite often takes a crisis to make people stop and think. That doesn't always mean the solution is good. I wonder if all the recuses stopped taking animals tomorrow and put all that animal care time and effort and money into trying to get new laws in or eductating the public if that would change things more. (I am not saying they don't do that at the moment but just if that was what they did soley)

I wasn't saying the goverment would not do anything. What I meant as WHAT would they do?

They would cull as there would be no where for these animals do go as there would be no rescues.

As mentioned in a previous post that would be a horrible world to live in for animals.

Louise

Adele

04-09-2004, 03:13 PM

Thank you Lousie for expanding on that, I understand what you mean now, and agree with you.
We certainly would never rehome an un neutered bunny unless we were 100% sure that it would not be used for breeding.
We are very, very careful to whom we rehome bunnies to, and we have been pleasantly surprised how many responsible and compassionate Bunny Mummy and Daddys are out there...and the Forum is full of these lovely folk too :D

AmberUK

04-09-2004, 03:38 PM

What the government would do would be down to what pulic opinion would say at the time and what well known animal charities would advise and then industry would get a say.

The bird flu decimated millions of chickens, just took out whole farms cos they were all so crowded in one got it and then it just went to the whole farm. Was the answer to actually give them more space, make them healthier and freer so they might have a chance? No industry argued that chickens don't move round much and they peck each other so the legal requirment for chickens is still tiny and battery enclosures were kept.

If there were no rescues before anything could be done they probably would have to reduce stray numbers. Without that you just have the numbers going up and up and you cannot even get anywhere. A cull would probably be the only place to start. But I think in being forced to have to cull they would also look at ways to manage animal numbers in the long term, but knowing the crazy ideas they come up with I cannot even begin to think what they would do. I mean who thought they would feed cows to cows???

(BTW I am not sure if my personal answer to this question is yes or no. I find the whole thing of how people treat animals just beyond something I can even begin to understand. But then again I often find human behaviour perplexing)

Bunnyboarding

04-09-2004, 03:54 PM

I have edited the top part of my post as i felt i did not explain myself very clearly to begin with. :)

bunnyhuggger

04-09-2004, 11:42 PM

So Bob, has this thread come to a natural conclusion yet, if so we can hear your opinion at last :lol: ?

Kiwibunny

05-09-2004, 09:55 PM

Bob

06-09-2004, 10:34 PM

Bob likes to make sweeping statements but appears unable to explain or defend them. "Bad rescues"? An insult to the thousands of people slogging away at rescue, whether they be one person fostering one animal or a big group dealing with a lot of animals. Sure, there may be the odd weirdo or eccentric calling themselves a rescue and making a mess of it, but that would be pretty rare. Those involved in rescue of unwanted animals (whatever the reasons they are without a home) need all the encouragement they can get.
Anna

That was an interesting generalisation. Believe me, that statement is a very broad statement and did make me chuckle as I am not generally known for making sweeping statements and then "stepping back" ROFL I normally get stuck right in! Seems I get it wrong which ever way I go!

However I deliberately did not voice my view on this subject as I really wanted to hear other opinions and to see how the debate formed without my views influencing the responses.

I could have stated an opinion, and than debated that point, but I simply chose to ask for other views? Is that so wrong?

To those that did respond, many thanks for sharing your opinions. I did start to reply but have had little time on the PC to reply. I will try tonight or tomorrow but work often dictates when I can reply and children dictate when I can get on the home PC! But don't get too excited as I don't have "that" much further to say than has been said. :lol:

shazlew

08-09-2004, 01:59 PM

this is a bit off topic i guess but oh well!
only just read this post and yes wait for it lots of rescue centres do maybe cause many more unwanted buns than need be!
people now see its only too easy to dump there problems when you think about it rescue means just that!
how many rescues have took rabbits that truely need rescuing?
by that i mean maybe rabbits taken as owner died left alone in house /flat or maybe due to owners getting flooding and homeless? you know the thing!
of thewhat 242 rabbits i took in last year all come from some damn stupid people who got bored or maybe the kids was allergic (****) and the other good one is its my neighbours and they moved total codswallop!
i breed and i am not afraid to be known as such but what gets me is a breeder who breds the bun sells it on to whatever means it may be and thats it forgotten when new owner calls 2 years on they dont even know who they are!
i know all my bunnies be it rescue or bred by me and would be happy to take back anything thats not worked out same as 90% of all good breeders would!
most rabbits that end up in rescues are due to buying on the R factor in petshops or maybe this ones free lets have it!
i have a unwritten rule rabbits aint pet they never will be they can inflict some nasty wounds i will not sell a rabbit to live as a cuddly pet!
i work with animal samaritans which is a well known animal rescue i took a back seat a few years back to allow my mate val to deal with buns i just flicker about take what i can when i can!
and we had a bit of grief when the founder of an sams died and the group split you know the sort of thing half took off started another rescue which i think is so silly and now there seems to be no end to the amount of animals flying about through recues where as we seem to of got to good steady amount all animals coming in numbbers have dropped!
we make sure all are neutered if they are really sick when they come in they either stay till they reach the end or they will get put to sleep!
i watch many rescues and see some that breed the poor animals some keep sick alive when the kindewst option is a very long sleep!
others will rehome something which is sick and then you know in most cases this either will end in the new owners spending so much money that they will never take on another rescued rabbit! or the poor animals will lack the proper care!
as with breeders there are good and bad rescues and i think this is something we will always live with it will never change!
in a perfect world we would all be licenced both rescues and breeders alike i would love it one day a? :?:

Tamsin

08-09-2004, 02:13 PM

others will rehome something which is sick and then you know in most cases this either will end in the new owners spending so much money that they will never take on another rescued rabbit! or the poor animals will lack the proper care!

I don't think there is anything wrong with rehoming rabbits with medical problems as long as the new owner is aware of the cost and care needed. Its the same with a 'normal bun' you need to make sure people are aware of the cost/care inadvance or they will be in for a nasty surprise and the rabbit may end up back in rescue. In some cases rescues continue to pay for future vet bills anyway.

Tam

shazlew

08-09-2004, 02:19 PM

yes our rescue pays vet costs and we will pay for animals not from us but many cannot afford this!
i see this poor bun a few days ago took from a rescue a long way from us thank god he was blowing snot everywhere could hardly breath messy bum no teeth and looked like hell these owners spent a fortune on him kids was in tears thought he was going to die sadley i see soon he will but this rabbit shouldnt of been rehomed if we are going to rescue we must all be willing to keep the sick and infirm until whatever comes first !
not move them on i know it fills un a cage for another but this is life we need to cope!
we took a rabbit in man years back now must of been 15 years back her name was smokey she was a nethie cross she arrived with thick snot on her nose maggot eaten babie hanging out cuts and wounds all over her she was nasty and about 2 we couldnt rehome her she wouldnt have a life!
we cured her she died on 13th nov 02 now thats good going but all the time she was here she took up space but wouldnt have it any other way!
i miss smokey :wink:
we all need to take the good with the bad

Thumps

08-09-2004, 02:48 PM

yes our rescue pays vet costs and we will pay for animals not from us but many cannot afford this!
i see this poor bun a few days ago took from a rescue a long way from us thank god he was blowing snot everywhere could hardly breath messy bum no teeth and looked like **** these owners spent a fortune on him kids was in tears thought he was going to die sadley i see soon he will but this rabbit shouldnt of been rehomed if we are going to rescue we must all be willing to keep the sick and infirm until whatever comes first !
not move them on i know it fills un a cage for another but this is life we need to cope!
we took a rabbit in man years back now must of been 15 years back her name was smokey she was a nethie cross she arrived with thick snot on her nose maggot eaten babie hanging out cuts and wounds all over her she was nasty and about 2 we couldnt rehome her she wouldnt have a life!
we cured her she died on 13th nov 02 now thats good going but all the time she was here she took up space but wouldnt have it any other way!
i miss smokey :wink:
we all need to take the good with the bad

Ok not sure Im reading this right, are you saying if an elderly or ill rabbit comes into rescue it should, in your opinion, be looked after by the rescue until it either dies or is pts? If an elderly or ill rabbit is looked after until the end by a rescue instead of being rehomed isn't that rabbit then taking up space and funds which could help maybe 20 other rabbits???

Angela

shazlew

08-09-2004, 10:24 PM

yes you was reading right!
why shouldnt a rescue take responsablity for a rabbit they took in? why pass the buck!
charitys and rescue places dont and if they do shouldnt go in with there eyes shut!
if they are willing to take in a sick or old bun and they dont warrent putting to sleep or in some cases there are places that will continue with a rabbit tills it falls to bits (wicked!)
then why shouldnt they care for it?
i dont think there is any point in taking a rabbit from one bad place only to risk it in another!
i look after what cannot be rehomed so really this should fall into hands of others!

Kiwibunny

08-09-2004, 10:31 PM

You have a point Angela, but there is a subtle difference between "rescue" and "sanctuary". Maybe some people combine the two? The old, disabled, bad-tempered buns that nobody wants are taking up valuable space, but their lives are valid too, and who's really to say which life is actually "worth" more? The healthy friendly bunny enriching someone's life as a pet, or the ugly grumpy biter with 3 legs? I say both lives are equally valid and there's no right or wrong about a person's choice to provide quality of life to either. It is a dilemma though, as practicalities, ie time, space, money, are all important considerations and there are always more animals needing rescue and a shortage of resources.

Bob

08-09-2004, 10:48 PM

Rescues undoubtedly contribute towards the number of animals that end up needing re-homing simply because that is, after all, what they are set up to do!! So I don't actually think that is such a bad thing to recognize or admit to!

The main problem is not the existence of rescues where people can dump their mistakes on, not the existence of breeders that sell to the public or to pet shops or even pet shops that sell to the public.

It is people, simple as that. It is not breeders or pet shops, or even pet mishaps, - it is people!

Rabbits find their way into rescues because of uneducated or uncaring or plain nasty individual humans, no point in blaming one group or another as you then have to generalize so much, rescues, pet owners, breeders, pet shops all come from a very broad camp and it is unfair to lump them all together.

I think that a lot of people on this forum are able to do just that which is really encouraging.

We all have a lot to learn from each other and others can learn with us as we share our experiences.

The missing bit of the jigsaw sadly, is the primary reason for the numbers in rabbit rescues, back to Mr. Public again I am afraid.

Mr Public could be the person that thinks about buying a rabbit and researches what is involved, the commitment, the costs etc, first. That is great as they are much less likely to present rescues with a problem at a later date.

The problem is the Mr. Public that knows no better, thinks that a rabbit is cheap and dispensable, does not even consider commitment, costs, buys on impulse. Worse still what happens when the rabbit gets ill? Most here do not need me to spell it out.

Sadly those people are not likely to be members of this or similar groups; they are not likely to be members of the RWA or the BRC. So whatever is said on these forums or in member magazines is not going to even reach those that really need to be educated..

Education is the key and I don't have a magic wand to answer how to achieve that otherwise I would use it. What I am sure of is that whilst people continue to ignore some basic fact and channel all their energies into blaming one "group" or "another" it is simply going to detract from the real need for the rabbit community to unite behind the need to promote an education program - and fund it - along the line of "a dog is not just for Christmas".

ah well... i can dream.....

Bunnyboarding

08-09-2004, 11:18 PM

Hi Bob,

I agree with the point (as i said in my previous post) that it is society in general that is acting irresponsibly & causing the real problem.

All i can say there is a lot of it about!

However the average consciencious owner would try to avoid having to rehome their pet anywhere anyway! (Or perhaps wouldn't have got into some of the more easily-avoided situations in the first place! although I understand life holds circumstances sometimes beyond people's control)

It is society that decides whether it is easy to acquire, & then dump their pet or not.

bunnyhuggger

08-09-2004, 11:19 PM

Rescues undoubtedly contribute towards the number of animals that end up needing re-homing simply because that is, after all, what they are set up to do!! So I don't actually think that is such a bad thing to recognize or admit to!

:? Bob, I'm being a bit of a numpty here, but in what way do rescues contribute towards the number of animals needing rehoming?

the rabbit community to unite behind the need to promote an education program - and fund it - along the line of "a dog is not just for Christmas".

That's why we have RU, we are not just a forum. The more we can each individually reach Mr Public, the more we can provide education, skills and knowledge. Many rescues provide education to the public, be it in schools, veterinary Rabbit Awareness days, bunny fayres, being present at shows/fairs and such like, RWA also has Outreach Officers who do loads of promoting education on rabbit care and welfare. We provide information on the internet, we advise on other forums like mismatch, equine etc. (these ones will make your hair stand on end!). My only aim is to do the best I can do. As for funding it, that's why we fund raise. Over in America, rabbit welfare is much more publicised, hopefully that will spread over to the UK. The RWA as you know is funding a specialist rabbit vet, who would have thought that would have happened 5 years ago. Nobody can conquer the world in a day, at least some people are making the effort and doing their bit.

ah well... i can dream.....
I gave up dreaming and decided to try and do my bit! :lol:

Bob

08-09-2004, 11:43 PM

Lynda - Rescues are responsible simply because they are there!! that is not a bad thing as clearly there is a need. I think that this has already been debated in this thread. I am loath to say "what would happen if the rescue option was not available as that would not be popular at all and I don't agree with the short term pain long term gain with neglected rabbits. I believe that rescues are an essential part of the rabbit community.

But the simple fact is that rescues do offer a "way out" an "easy way to get rid of fluffy stuck at the bottom of the garden or the rabbit that is aggresive because the owners do not know how to spell spaying.

And that is why I feel that rescues need to recognise that they are not "above" the problem but are actually "part" of the problem. Read my post again with an open mind - please ? :-)

Tamsin

08-09-2004, 11:58 PM

Well if rescues didn't exist there would be no rabbits in rescues ;)

Rabbits find their way into rescues because of uneducated or uncaring or plain nasty individual humans, no point in blaming one group or another as you then have to generalize so much, rescues, pet owners, breeders, pet shops all come from a very broad camp and it is unfair to lump them all together.

I think thats a good statement.

We all know there are good and bad people that label themselves (or are labelled) under each category. The good ones do their best to help and often end up picking the pieces up after the bad. Even good/bad are over generalized categories, there are people that just don't care, those that don't know any better but can learn....

Rescues are also a varied group with differing goals, there are also organisations/people that label themselves a rescue that wouldn't necessarily be considered a rescue by other rescues.

Some sanctuaries goal is to provide a perminant home for rabbits that would find it particularly difficult/impossible to find a home elsewhere. Others rescues take rabbits in and rehome them, some don't take rabbits in at all just have a network of individuual fosterers.

I think one thing thats becoming apparent on the forum is that when generalizations about any 'group' start getting made is when things start getting more heated. Of course holding a discussion without using any labels or making any assumptions is not an easy thing to do. ;)

Tam

Kiwibunny

09-09-2004, 01:25 AM

Technically, what Bob says is correct. Without rescues, there would be no animals to be rehomed because they would have simply died of neglect, starvation, disease or accidents after being dumped. However, because we don't find it acceptable to allow that to happen to the animals, we rescue them. That is the moral alternative. The immoral alternative is to leave them to their fate. Responsible people have ALWAYS had to "clean up" after those who make a hash of things, whether we are talking about animal welfare or child welfare or whatever. Education helps, but will never be entirely satisfactory, as many people simply don't want to be educated! Those who work in shelters and rescues need to educate as they can and push for improvement in local body and state laws relating to animal welfare, but really, they (we) just have to accept that there will always be cruel, stupid, uncaring people and we will always be 'cleaning up' after them. When I see an animal that needs help, I don't stand there questioning the right or wrong of the situation, and whether or not the negligent owner is taking responsibility or not, I just do the rescue and get that animal as far away from that place as possible. All rescue work is good work, keep up the good work everybody!

bunnymad

11-09-2004, 12:20 AM

This seems to be a world wild problem.

I know owning any animal isn`t cheap. But surely vets could make de sexing "pets" cheaper. Many ppl here don`t get there pets de sexed due to the cost. Oks, for get about the debate if you can not afford, do not have thing. Thats never going to stop the needless breeding.

Lower the price of se sexing will surely lower the amount of unwonted pets or trying to re home them.

Wells, thats my humble opinion.

bronie

sgprescue

16-09-2004, 12:42 AM

Kiwibunny

16-09-2004, 10:20 AM

Hope all your little 'guests' are well, Cheryl. You're doing a brilliant job, bless you!
Anna & Tweed, Snubby & Tufty

bunnytales

16-09-2004, 01:16 PM

Tam[/quote]I think one thing thats becoming apparent on the forum is that when generalizations about any 'group' start getting made is when things start getting more heated. Of course holding a discussion without using any labels or making any assumptions is not an easy thing to do. ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/bunnytales/avatar163.gif

hee hee - where's that Bob!! - Just kidding Bob - boxing gloves on the way!!

Tams - I think your Spot On here! - I personally feel anyone in Rescue/Sanctuary work deserves a medal for all the hard work and what must feel like endless frustration with Joe Public and other areas of Welfare - but as already said you carn't change the world in a day!!

In my experience I've got to say the Rescue's I have been in contact with have been brilliant and have always been very honest regarding health conditions of bunnies for rehoming - surely this is the responsible way to be - For Joe Public to take a Rescue Animal which will need special medical treatment or not be suitable for family life etc is silly and I just don't think most responsible Rescue's would do that - after all they want to rehome the bunny for life - not for six months and then have it back again!!

My concern area is that I believe that on occassions some Rescues (and I'm remembering here there is good and bad in all areas of welfare) do take surplus bunnies produced by Breeders - now as hard as it is I do feel that contributes to the bunny over population -
OK you could argue - well just because its a breeders bunny shouldn't mean that its given any less importance - but surely this will directly encourage unregulated breeding :?:

sgprescue

16-09-2004, 03:16 PM

You are right there. I have been contacted in the past by breeders wishing to offload their surplass stock however I do not take them in unless they are actually giving up breeding as otherwise they will just keep breeding more and adding to the problem. I was contacted by one breeder who wanted me to take a baby male lop because it was the last in the litter that she couldnt sell (she was still breeding them). I told her I would only take him if she got him neutered (I knew very well she wouldnt fork out for it to be done), not surprisingly I never heard from her again.
There is however other rescue centres (in particular one of the big well known ones about 20 miles away from me) that does not sex the bunnies or piggies when they get them in. They take peoples word for it and then end up with several extra unwanted litters :evil:

Cheryl

Bob

17-09-2004, 04:25 AM

Bob - To be honest I find this thread quite offensive. Many people have aired their views on the subject and on most points I have to agree with them but for someone to say that rescues are part of the problem is very offensive in my view. I spend hours working day and night (its 11.30pm and i still havent finished cleaning out :roll: ) trying to give these animals the best of everything. Where possible I ask for a donation when taking animals in (there are some people who you just know are not going to part with money), get as many rabbits neutered as possible and find them all good loving homes. I would never in a million years dream of breeding rabbits and adding to the problem. Rescues do not in my opinion make it easy for people to dump their pets. Perhaps you should phone round some to find they are all FULL to bursting and simply cant take any more. I run the only rabbit and guinea pig rescue in Norwich and most of the people who phone my up to try and offload their pets never even new we existed. It is a fact that most people who end up dumping their pets were not properly educated when purchasing them, and then of course there are the poor unfortunate people who think they are doing the right thing buying 2 animals to keep each other company only to find they multiply because the pet shop sexed them wrong. What would you propose they do with them??????
I can picture it now.......going for a walk in the countryside only to see thousands and thousands of small animals hopping past you because their owners had released them because there were no rescues left.
Yes I agree there are some bad rescues but please think about us poor soles who dedicate our lives to clearing up other peoples mess before making your judgements.

Cheryl
Sprowston guinea pig rescue

Bob - To be honest I find this thread quite offensive…….Many people have aired their views on the subject and on most points I have to agree with them but for someone to say that rescues are part of the problem is very offensive in my view.

I am sorry that you have elected to view my comments in this way; perhaps you could enlighten me and add some factual comments to back up what you said in your post that relates to any of my 6 posts in this thread with particular reference to Rescues.

I don’t doubt the commitment of many people involved in rescues, especially those in hospices, which are very special case indeed. I have stated that very clearly within this thread which you clearly have not read. That does not make them immune to critical comment as seems to be the impression given by your post.

I don’t shrink from the fact that Rescues are a part of the problem simply that they exist (again read previous posts!) To deny that fact and ignore it, is simply living IMO in cloud la la.

Actually it is not a big deal (as posted previously) as that is what rescues are
there to do .

What might be more constructive would be recognition of that fact and constructive ways to dispel what you clearly think is a myth.

I should add that there are so many points in your post that I passionately agree with especially education and individual responsibility but they have been covered in previous posts. I just think tha,t had you read the thread, you might have been better informed.

If you have read the thread then I have further comments to make!

Bob

anon101

17-09-2004, 05:33 PM

Bob

17-09-2004, 10:38 PM

I am sorry that you have elected to view my comments in this way; perhaps you could enlighten me and add some factual comments to back up what you said in your post that relates to any of my 6 posts in this thread with particular reference to Rescues.

I don’t doubt the commitment of many people involved in rescues, especially those in hospices, which are very special case indeed. I have stated that very clearly within this thread which you clearly have not read. That does not make them immune to critical comment as seems to be the impression given by your post.

I don’t shrink from the fact that Rescues are a part of the problem simply that they exist (again read previous posts!) To deny that fact and ignore it, is simply living IMO in cloud la la.

Actually it is not a big deal (as posted previously) as that is what rescues are
there to do .

What might be more constructive would be recognition of that fact and constructive ways to dispel what you clearly think is a myth.

I should add that there are so many points in your post that I passionately agree with especially education and individual responsibility but they have been covered in previous posts. I just think tha,t had you read the thread, you might have been better informed.

If you have read the thread then I have further comments to make!

Bob

Can you give me a road map please Bob???????

Louise

Louise, I am sorry to hear that you have problems with the above post.

I would be grateful if you could provide me with more (well any actually) information on the points that need clarifying.

Such a general comment is so unhelpful in aiding me to help you!

And you clearly need help! Not sure whether you need directions or an explanation of my post.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Bobs bunnies is here to provide asistance to those that have problems reading threads that are longer than 3 replies and one of them is not to thier liking.

Mail Bob'sbunnies bobsbunnies@getalife,moc

anon101

17-09-2004, 10:55 PM

Bob

18-09-2004, 08:16 PM

Sorry that was meant to be a joke! :D

Really, what is your point Bob?

What does your post actually mean?

What was the matter with Cheryl's post?

Sorry my English was obviously not my strongest subject at school but I cant help thinking you make things sound much more complex then they really are.

Louise

Once again, I am going to curb my tounge after walking around the block.

Your sense of humour and mine are clearly not the same. that is fine ;-)

Really, what is your point Bob?

Their was no point except to answer a post made directly to me and to which Cheryl has not replied but you obviously think that you are qualified to do so!

What does your post actually mean? Louise

Again a response to a very personal post made to me. A reply "means" nothing. It is simply a reply....

What was the matter with Cheryl's post?

Nothing at all, Cheryl voiced her opinion and I respect her for doing that I am simply replying to some of her comments and observations. I still await for a reply to her post that was made directly to me. I don't doubt that that will be forthcoming.

Elaine I do wonder why you have chosen to answer this on behalf of Cheryl? I have got to say that you would not be my number 1 selection! I do believe that Cheryl is more than capable of answering herself.

Regarding the problems understanding the English language, you really need to concentrate more on this. if it helps, print out the thread so that you have something to refer back to. That way you will minimise the incidences of getting your facts wrong, not understanding the topic, and subsequently, through the inability to comment on facts, making a complete **** head of yourself.

I hope that this information has been of use to you. I do hope that you will contact me if you require further information or assistance.
__________________

Can I also comment that I think that this thread has lost it's way and should really be allowed to die a natural death! :-)

Adele

18-09-2004, 08:44 PM

[quote="Bob"

Elaine I do wonder why you have chosen to answer this on behalf of Cheryl? I have got to say that you would not be my number 1 selection! I do believe that Cheryl is more than capable of answering herself.(Quote Bob)

Hiya Bob, I would just like to say that I do not think Elaine was answering for Cheryl just giving her own input into the debate which she is fully entitled to do so like everyone else.
************************************************** ********

Regarding the problems understanding the English language, you really need to concentrate more on this. if it helps, print out the thread so that you have something to refer back to. That way you will minimise the incidences of getting your facts wrong, not understanding the topic, and subsequently, through the inability to comment on facts, making a complete **** head of yourself.(Quote Bob)

Bob you have presented some excellent points and your discussions are thought provoking and interesting.
The problems seem to appear when postings become personalised and if you can perhaps try and avoid that if possible.
You made a good point about printing off the thread so that one can keep up with the debate, but some people just prefer to pop their own thoughts down and not follow the entire thread as such.
I tend to be guilty of doing this myself on occasion :shock: , but with 36 rabbits here, I rabbit from dawn to dusk so keeping up with all the threads is difficult :?

************************************************** ***********

Perhaps you can reassess all the feedback you have received from people in this thread and 1) pose any more questions that you feel have not been addressed or fully answered so far
2) Tell us if you have changed your original view in light of the information that people have very kindly presented to you.
Look forward to hearing some more from you soon :D

__________________

Can I also comment that I think that this thread has lost it's way and should really be allowed to die a natural death! :-)[/quote Bob)

Well perhaps you are the one to get the thread back on track again then Bob... :D......you started it, so you must finish it :lol: :lol: :lol:..else Tamsin and I will set the attack bunnies on you :twisted: :lol: :lol:

Bob

18-09-2004, 09:04 PM

Adele

18-09-2004, 09:10 PM

[quote="Bob"

I think that you are epessing an oinion that i feel is wrong.[/quote]

Bob please can you expand on this statement as I am not sure to what you are referring.
I am not aware that I am giving an opinion as such, just presenting facts.
What is it you feel you disagree with??
Thanks :D

anon101

18-09-2004, 09:23 PM

Their was no point except to answer a post made directly to me and to which Cheryl has not replied but you obviously think that you are qualified to do so!

I wasn't replying on behalf of Cheryl, I'm sure she is quite capable enough to do this herself.

I was mearly trying to understand your post. :D

Elaine I do wonder why you have chosen to answer this on behalf of Cheryl? I have got to say that you would not be my number 1 selection! I do believe that Cheryl is more than capable of answering herself.

Who's Elaine????? :?:

Regarding the problems understanding the English language, you really need to concentrate more on this. if it helps, print out the thread so that you have something to refer back to. That way you will minimise the incidences of getting your facts wrong, not understanding the topic, and subsequently, through the inability to comment on facts, making a complete **** head of yourself.

You are being personally insulting to me now. There's no need for this. :evil:

Louise
[/quote]

Bob

18-09-2004, 11:45 PM

sheesh even "I" give up!! you guys have it your own way. I have a shed to build and a life to live. I can only do and say so much and frankly you can only expand so much time and energy on any given project before you have to say whoooooo.

Wish you all the best. Clearly this forum is not quite what I thought it was which I think is a real shame. On the posative side - back to the shed and living in the real world!

Lazylops

19-09-2004, 10:21 AM

oh Bob is this au revoir? :shock:

Bob

19-09-2004, 10:10 PM

oh Bob is this au revoir? :shock:

You wish!!

It will be intersesting to visit this forum in six months time and see how the balance of views is reflected and moderated, perhaps even less.

I genually hope that I am wrong and I do hope that you all get it right. Good grief, it needs something to bash peoples heads together and stop people working against each other!!

I know that my comments are blunt and get peoples heckles up. Good!!!!

It is about time people started to to sit up and wake up about rabbit issues outside of thier own blinkered enviroment - and I do not make a partisan comment here, all parties are as bad as each other.

Best of luck

bob

Amy B

20-09-2004, 05:17 PM

Hi All

I'm a new member, but probably know a few of you from other groups.

I am familiar with our Bob from these other groups and think it worth pointing out (if you haven't already guessed) that he is pro-breeding and enjoys flaming groups such as this.

If you'd like an example: On one occasion I advised somebody who lost her Pets At Home bunny to muccoid enteritis to adopt an adult bunny from a rescue centre because it would be far less likely to get the condition. Our dear Bob rubbished my advice and told her to buy direct from a breeder and not to adopt.

I could go on, but I won't. You have been warned!!!!

Adele

20-09-2004, 05:23 PM

[quote="Amy B"

I am familiar with our Bob from these other groups and think it worth pointing out (if you haven't already guessed) that he is pro-breeding and enjoys flaming groups such as this.
!!!![/quote]

Hi Amy and welcome to the Forum.
Please could I just refer you to the Rabbits United Charter which asks that you please do not publically discuss someones personal character in this manner.
Please be careful how you post comments about another individual :wink: .

The Forum Charter states that Ru is an open Forum, and therefore is not PRO or ANTI Breeding, Bob is welcome here as much as you are, as long as you respect and follow the Forum Charter.

Ru is a NEUTRAL rabbit Discussion Forum with the aim of opening up debate about many rabbit Issues and not just the Breeding aspect which in reality forms a very small part of the Forums work.

Hope you will take this in the vein in which it is intended, and you are very much welcome here too Amy. :D

Adele & Tam

Amy B

20-09-2004, 05:38 PM

Hi Adele

I have been keeping an eye on this topic since it started and only resorted to posting after the conversation had already resorted to personal comments and hints of intended foul language.

I don't mind if my posts are moderated but please make sure you subject certain others to the same treatment, otherwise it isn't an even playing field.

I think the issue of whether people are pro or anti breeding is relevant when it influences their stance on a topic. In which case my statement is entirely justified.

Amy

Tamsin

20-09-2004, 05:59 PM

'Everybody else is doing it' isn't an excuse to break the rules. When things get personal we do take it up with people. If you have a problem with a particular post let us know privately and we take appropriate actions.

A persons individual stance on breeding might be appropriate to the discussion but whether or not they want to tell people it is up to them. We don't demand members declaire their views/affiliations inorder to take part in a discussion.

Tam

Amy B

20-09-2004, 06:09 PM

C'mon Tam. You know perfectly well which posts are offensive. How about starting with the ones which people have already stated in their replies that they find personally offensive.

I was simply trying to clarify the views of the originator of the topic for the benefit of the group. He never stated that he was unwilling to disclose his opinions, just that people should be able to figure them out for themselves from his previous posts. This is a cop out. Why should others air their opinions if the person who started the discussion won't???

Amy

Lazylops

20-09-2004, 06:15 PM

perhaps you would like to post your opinion of the subject of the thread, and perhaps pm the site admin if you have some concerns about how the thread has been managed, discussions such as these throw the topic off its point.

Tamsin

20-09-2004, 06:27 PM

I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer to you... If you or anyother member has a problem with a post then contact myself or Adele by pm or email and we will look into it.

We don't often remove/edit postings as we don't like to censor (you'll note we haven't removed yours) however that doesn't mean that members don't receive warning when they breach our charter.

Consider this your warning. So far your only posts to the forum have been personal or questioning the moderators both of which are against our charter. I suggest you read it before you post further - http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=35

Tamsin

Amy B

20-09-2004, 06:35 PM

Ok, here's my opinion.

Reputable Rescues DON'T add to the numbers of rabbits needing homes because they don't breed their rabbits.

Admittedly, if rescues didn't exist then many of these rabbits would already be dead, either PTS, starved to death, released into the wild, etc, etc, etc, so wouldn't need a home anymore, but does anybody actually want this to happen?? No, that's why rescues exist.

Breeders OF ANY KIND, be they show, hobby or small back garden breeders DO contribute to the numbers of rabbits needing homes because they breed more rabbits than they can house, so have to sell, cull or give away unwanted stock.

Many of these breeder bought rabbits will end up in rescue centres, but the breeder will still keep breeding more and discarding the unwanted ones. The cycle is self-perpetuating. In my opinion every individual has a responsibility to break this cycle.

If you choose to buy a rabbit from a breeder you are denying a home to a rabbit in a rescue centre. Can you live with that on your conscience?

Amy

Wabbit

20-09-2004, 07:30 PM

Hear, hear Amy :D

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Adele

20-09-2004, 09:50 PM

Ok, here's my opinion.

Breeders OF ANY KIND, be they show, hobby or small back garden breeders DO contribute to the numbers of rabbits needing homes because they breed more rabbits than they can house, so have to sell, cull or give away unwanted stock.
y

Amy I think you have to be careful not to make wide general assumptions about Breeders per say.(and this applies to making generalised assumptions about Rescues, as all Rescues differ too)
As we have discovered on RU, Breeders are all individual people, have differing philosophies and standards of care for their bunnies.
I agree that bad Breeders are not taking responsibilty for the bunnies they breed, but there are good , responsible Breeders too, some of which frequent this Forum.
You are fully entitled to your views, but hope you will at least be able to listen to breeders as individuals on this Forum.
Thank you for your thoughts on this topic. :D

Wabbit

20-09-2004, 09:57 PM

Whilst I can accept that some breeders are better than others, I totally agree with Amy that they are ALL contributing to the huge over-population of domestic rabbits.

Breeding is not done for the sake of rabbit welfare. There are only ever selfish reasons involved.

Jenny

Adele

20-09-2004, 10:10 PM

The Discussion on this thread was about DO RESCUES CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS THE OVERPOPULATION OF RABBITs, it was not intended to discuss Breeders , and whether the breeding of bunnies is right or wrong.
Please can you try and answer the discussion question, posed by Bob.
Thank you.

Wabbit

20-09-2004, 10:12 PM

Breeding is natural for wild rabbits.

Domestic rabbits were engineered by man.

Rabbits kept for breeding do not live naturally in groups, as they do in the wild. Instead, most are kept alone in cages and are bred from when the owner wants it to happen.

I would be very interested to hear of a reason why breeding domestic rabbits is of any benefit to them. Breeders do what they do as a hobby or a business. Both of these purposes are for the benefit of the owner, whether they enjoy winning at shows, selling rabbits for profit, or simply want the challenge of producing the 'perfect' rabbit.

Any breeders who just enjoy having rabbits around them would be doing a much more worthwhile thing if they adopted rescues instead.

Jenny

Wabbit

20-09-2004, 10:13 PM

Adele

You asked me some questions, to which I have now replied.

Where has your original post gone?

Jenny

Amelia

20-09-2004, 10:15 PM

I've been following this thread with interest, I think we have to remember that without breeders, and I'm not expressing any views towards them, we wouldn't all have the lovely bunnies we have today! :)

Adele

20-09-2004, 10:18 PM

Dont worry Jenny I tried to edit the post and it deleted...others on Ru will know I am heavy handed and hit the wrong button on occasions!. :lol:
Thank you for answering my questions, and I am interested in your reply.

Please could you now have a think about the original question as posed by Bob and write your thoughts on the discussion as intended.
Thank you.
Can you see any problems with Rescues themselves?

Wabbit

20-09-2004, 10:22 PM

I'm afraid I can't really take Bob's question seriously :roll:

I can't see any way that a rescue centre (responsible ones who neuter before rehoming) can contribute to the over-population problem.

I don't think breeders or the general public would do anything differently if they didn't exist, and all the unwanted buns would have nowhere to go :cry:

Sadly, there is a great need for rescues

Jenny

Tamsin

20-09-2004, 10:23 PM

Any one that breeds is adding to the population of rabbits. That after all is what breeding is, creating a new life. However whether a particular breeder contributes to the section of rabbits that end up in rescue is a little more complicated.

For example some breeders breed very few rabbits and these only go to other rabbit breeders, such as in the case of rare breeds. It is unlikely that those rabbits would become involved in rescue and also unlikely that the new owner would adopt from a rescue as an alternative. In that case there is little/no contribution to rescue.

The orginal topic was whether rescues contribute or not. Obviously rescues don't breed so they don't contribute in the form of more animals so to answer you have to look for more subtle possibilities such as a rescue taking an older rabbit and the owner then going out to buy a new baby.

That doesn't mean rescues don't do valuable work, its not their fault that happens its a side effect. But by regonising thats a possibility it can be combated for example as suggested by removing the hutch/equipment along with the rabbit.

Tam

Wabbit

20-09-2004, 11:30 PM

If breeders were more concerned about rabbit welfare in general, rather than the way their rabbits look, they would be opening up their homes to rescue rabbits instead of breeding.

Pendragon

21-09-2004, 01:57 AM

Hi wabbit,

Unfortunately if I wanted a Beveren, a Havana, a Marten Smoke Pearl rex, a Belgian Hare, an Argente Bleu, an Alaska, a Siamese Sable, a Lilac, a Blue and Tan or a Meisssner Lop, I could wait years or forever for one to come into rescue, yet none of these are rare breeds.

There are about 80 beautiful breeds of rabbits, and only a very small minority of types end up in rescue... the lops, the long-hairs, and the dwarfed breeds form the larger part.

So to have what I would really love - and I am not talking only about looks, as all breeds have different personalities as well - I'd have to go to a breeder. Am I wrong for wanting what I, personally, choose?

To deny these historic breeds, many of which the average rabbit owner has never seen, would be to ignore an enormous (and very aesthetic) part of the rabbit kingdom. It can't even be argued, as is done in the dog world, that many of these breeds have genetic disorders or are more unhealthy. By far the most genetic disorders are seen in the popular breeds found in pet shops - the dwarfs, the lops, and the fluffies.

I have just as much choice to keep them, as you do to choose your next rabbits from rescue. If any rabbit I ever breed finds itself in need of help, I'll take it back - that's the responsibility I have taken on in producing it, and one I take seriously. There is a big difference between people who churn out cuties for pet shops and those who strive to keep genetic disparity and the lesser breeds - which you will never see in rescue - going.

KATHY

21-09-2004, 08:59 AM

Unfortunately if I wanted a Beveren, a Havana, a Marten Smoke Pearl rex, a Belgian Hare, an Argente Bleu, an Alaska, a Siamese Sable, a Lilac, a Blue and Tan or a Meisssner Lop, I could wait years or forever for one to come into rescue, yet none of these are rare breeds.

There are about 80 beautiful breeds of rabbits, and only a very small minority of types end up in rescue... the lops, the long-hairs, and the dwarfed breeds form the larger part.

but wasn't a rabbit just a rabbit hundreds of years ago? its not just joe public that breed ignorantly through wrongly sexed rabbits from the local pet shop, like you said what if you wanted a special breed?you would go to a special breeder. yes at the moment lops nethies lionheads are in fashion but 2 years ago most ppl had never even heard of a lionhead and now rescues across the country are getting them hand over fist. you see what happens to those rabbits that do not come up to scratch ears too long, nose too short legs not the right shape? they end up as pets for ordinary uneducated folk who do not realise rabbits can live up to 12 years or maybe more, boredom sets in, rescues pick up the pieces. yes i personally think rescues could contribute to the problem but then again once born a life is a life through no fault of their own and whos to say whether they would have a good life, a breeder looking for that perfect rabbit to re-breed or a rabbit fancier for showing or mr+mrs****** down the road looking in rescues for that companion who have taken the time going from rescue to rescue looking for that rabbit that was disguarded because ignorant people who owned it first had grown tired of it, decided to live abroad suddenly,making room for that new pet etc etc etc.
i personally love what i am doing, its tiring , sometimes frustrating, mostly upsetting but very very rewarding.

Lazylops

21-09-2004, 09:51 AM

I think that is wholely unfair to immediately assume that all breeders are bad, uncaring and causing over population of rabbits, a sweeping statement. There are many reasons why there are too many rabbits, and this is mainly down to poor legislation and education, and in many cases can be down to parents just not saying no to their child. The breeders who breed for profit and are therefore not the best, can only fuel the rabbit population if joe public continues to purchase the rabbit as a pet.

Adele

21-09-2004, 12:14 PM

There are many reasons why there are too many rabbits, and this is mainly down to poor legislation and education, and in many cases can be down to parents just not saying no to their child.

Breeders are not breaking any laws, so until Legislation and more Regulations are brought in re Breeding then Breeders have the choice to do as they choose.
We are all responsible in our own way for the current over population of bunnies, albeit in supporting the pet shop trade, being a Rescue, breeding bunnies, or just choosing to have a rabbit as a pet (if rabbits were not wanted as pets then there would be no reason to breed them...except if you wanted to show rabbits perhaps).

I can see good points from both sides, and for example the fact as Sue said that Pure Breed are the strongest and fittest of bunnies, rather than the cross breeds than can be sold in pet shops.
I Rescue bunnies and provide Sanctuary for Pure Breed bunnies, and if I was not undertaking this work, and wanted a rabbit as a pet, I would opt to go to a Breeder.
The reason for this, is because I would wish to support the Pure breed bunnies, and not opt for a cross breed, for the health reasons/ issues.
This is NOT to say that I am not extremely concerned about the vast number of bunnies in rehoming centres, or that I do not think strict Breeding regulations should be brought in, it is just that I trust good Breeders to produce healthy bunnies who will be less likely to suffer health problems.

Although, I feel unable to support the breeding of bunnies until the numbers of rabbits in the Uk have been reduced/ rehomed properly,this is not to say that I would find it necessary to have a complete ban on breeding bunnies, as otherwise in 10 years there will be no more pet rabbits in the Uk.
It is also a fine line and balance between on one hand saying that bunnies should not be bred due to the sheer number of rabbits in rescues at present, but in the other, I can see good Breeders points of view that they feel it is important to keep the good traditional breeds of bunnies going, and I understand that several breeds of bunnies are under threat of becoming extinct.

I think everyone should have choice of where they get pets from, and although I would at this moment in time, suggest that individuals get rabbits from Rescues, i would not like to think that people should not be able to go to a breeder for a pet rabbit if they so choose.

Bunnyboarding

21-09-2004, 12:14 PM

IMO Pendragon & Lazylops have hit the nail on the head.

Here's an example of a breed i know & love.....

The Belgian Hare; this breed has been around for approx. 100 years ( a heck of a lot longer than most breeds).....my question to to anti-breeders is; How many of these have you honestly seen within your time as a rescuer? How many of these does one find hopping down the street?To own or breed a breed such as this, one has to be specialist & study & respect that chosen breed. The breeders of these breeds just simply will not turf them out to any old Tom, **** or Harry.

We're not talking the 'cute & cuddlies' of the pet trade, which are often produced by the category of money-orientated 'pet-breeders' that so often give the exhibition breeders a bad name. (PS i would add that not all breeders of exhibition rabbits do actually show them, they just enjoy them).

I still find it sad that people seem to be going all out to attack breeders without even knowing how a decent breeder conducts his/herself. What they do produce is on a quality (YES to preserve a breed) not quantity basis. In these cases, these ARE NOT the homeless ones rescues see with teeth problems, skin problems, etc etc. For this reason it sometimes means different decisions have to be made to pet owners, for example, like with infectious diseases that may occur. Again, this is in the interest of the rabbits themselves & due to preservation of the rest of their animals (or they would probably get an even worse name than what some people already give them!)

To dispel a myth, (which anyone who has kept exhibition rabbits will tell you); a) You do NOT make any money -you plough what you have into providing for & enjoying the rabbits.

b)If one does show, all they win is a paper card, rosette or sometimes (if your lucky) a trophy!

I personally no longer show as I do not have the time for it & to me it is not the be-all-and-end-all.

I have experienced/worked with all types of rabbit-keeper & will say that the worst kept rabbits i have witnessed are actually owned by ignorant PET owners - as these are the ones that stuff them silly with sugary pet shop treats meaning they have bad teeth, are overweight & suffering with sticky bottom syndrome & flystrike! These people also seem to have the smallest, most badly made pet trade hutches & quite happily leave 'fluffy' free-ranging in the garden overnight to play with 'Freddy-fox'.

Did anyone know that this is what angers decent breeders the most?? This is why much of their own personal time is given up to educate people...they don't have to do it but, THEY DO. Most breeders i know ALWAYS take back a rabbit they have parted with if the owner can no longer keep it, & they have factsheets that say this when the rabbit is sold. And, Yes! they have done their bit for animal welfare ( i know i certainly have & still am!) But where is the law that says you can't keep a breed you like? Half my pets are rescues, the other half aren't. Is that not fair enough?

I think in this day & age we should all be more open-minded about each other, what does annoy me is the fact that some of the visitors on here also contribute to another site that openly swears & calls breeders names :evil: , when they have little or no inside knowledge of the genuine people out there. No wonder I have heard that death threats have been sent to some breeders, as these people are pure sensationalists! There are some topics i have not replied to as i feel they are perhaps a bit antagonistic? (& no i won't elaborate! :wink: )

This forum, i believe, was set up to create a neutral territory for pet owners, breeders & rescuers alike. If such hatred continues, then it will merely increase the divide & this will NOT help the rabbits that do need help out there.

There you go, i promised myself i wouldn't reply & i did. Whoops! :)

PS. I did not add the bad language stars above (They just happened & it was only a name i used!)

KATHY

21-09-2004, 12:19 PM

Adele

21-09-2004, 12:24 PM

Hi Cheryl!.

I would just like to support your point that very few pure breed bunnies end up in Rescues, so I do not believe that Breeders can blamed as a group for the current overpopulation of bunnies in the Uk.
This is not to say that individual back street breeders do not play a part, but Breeders in the main do not.

I have had over 500 rabbits through the Sanctuary doors, and we have to look far and wide to find Pure breeds in Rescues/ the RSPCA.(although perhaps not so much these days with that naughty Tamsin thrusting pictures of beautiful bunnies in my face via RabbitRehome web site :twisted: :P :lol: :lol: )
My Sanctuary specificially takes in rare/ Pure and Traditional breeds as I feel this is something that I personally wish to support.

I think it is so wrong to judge people and put them into brackets according to what they do.
Everyone is an individual, and we should respect one another enough to take fellow Humans on their own unique merits, regardless of whether we agree with their philosophies or not. :wink:

Adele

21-09-2004, 12:30 PM

either you didn't read what i said properly or i have worded it wrong, my post was intended for all not just for breeders, everybody contributes to the over population of rabbits, yes probably even me i dont breed and i dont euthanise, if rabbits come in with a problem that prevents them from being rehomed they stay with me, i have 12 of these such rabbits and are my pets forever until the day they die.

Kathy no one is saying you are not doing fantastic and wonderful work, we know you are truly dedicated to your bunnies. :wink:

As a Rescue how do you feel you may contribute to the over population of bunnies?(for example, do you think that just because Rescues exist it makes it easier for folk to dump bunnies..knowing you wil pick up all the pieces after them?)

KATHY

21-09-2004, 01:18 PM

hi adele, i am obviously not wording my post right, i didn't think anyone is picking on me or other rescues, what i am trying to say is WE all contribute to the overpopulation of rabbits be it breeders or fanciers or joe public and yes even me, rescues do give them a get out clause if the kids are not impressed or vet bills are high or we are moving excuses, but what do we do ? do we stop breeding and probably wipe the existance of the domestic rabbit, do we stop rescuing and let animals be released into the wild or worse still carry on being treated badly, or do we all work together in harmony and try and control the level of neglected abused and unwanted? this debate could go on forever.

Tamsin

21-09-2004, 01:29 PM

I think thats a very good point Kathy. Going to either extreme is not a solution, we need to work together to get the balence right :D

Tam

Adele

21-09-2004, 01:35 PM

I agree with your excellent points Kathy, and with Tamsin too, that it is about working together and finding a balanced perspective.
All we can do is look at the situation as it is NOW and build on from that, towards a better future.
This is one of the aims of RU of course, but how we go from discussion to a practical implementation of any charges is another hurdle to overcome.

Amy B

21-09-2004, 02:51 PM

Hi

Can I just point out that the vast majority of breeders breed only about a dozen or so breeds (the examples of Dutch, Neddies, Lops, Rex, Lionheads immediately spring to mind).

Huge numbers of these breeds are currently languishing in rescues all around the country, or being sold in pet shops.

If rabbit breeders were really interested in preserving old or endangered breeds, then we wouldn't have so many that have become extinct over the past few decades (as highlighted by Sue Pendragon).

I have every sympathy with enthusiasts who are trying to preserve endangered breeds, but why do these seem to be in such a minority. Is there anybody on this forum who breeds genuinely endangered breeds of rabbits? If so I'd like to hear from you.

Amy

Pendragon

21-09-2004, 03:10 PM

Can I just point out that the vast majority of breeders breed only about a dozen or so breeds (the examples of Dutch, Neddies, Lops, Rex, Lionheads immediately spring to mind).

The majority of pet shop breeders yes!

[i]If rabbit breeders were really interested in preserving old or endangered breeds, then we wouldn't have so many that have become extinct over the past few decades (as highlighted by Sue Pendragon).[/quote]

The breeds I mentioned are by no means extinct!!
If you go to a rabbit show, you will see a lot of Nethies, Mini Lops, Dwarf Lops, Lionheads and some Dutch (not as popular as they once were) but out of the 200+ rabbits at the show, these breeds will comprise less than half of the rabbits present. The rest will be Tans, English, Polish, Angoras, Himalayans, Silvers, Belgian Hares, English Lops, French Lops, Rex (in many colours) Mini Rex, Sables, Satins, Smoke Pearls, New Zealands, Silver Fox, British & Continental Giants, Chinchillas, Havanas, Lilacs and others. None of the above are considered rare or endangered.

I have every sympathy with enthusiasts who are trying to preserve endangered breeds, but why do these seem to be in such a minority.

They aren't! not in the show world anyway. :D

Is there anybody on this forum who breeds genuinely endangered breeds of rabbits? If so I'd like to hear from you.

Yes - Tri-colour Dutch are officially a rare breed. This means there aren't enough people breeding them (or interested) to form a Breed Club for them. They have always been a minority rare breed; when I first had them 25+ years ago there were only 5 people in the country who bred them. The number is only slightly double that now.

Amy B

21-09-2004, 03:31 PM

I'm afraid I have no interest in whether the tri-colour Dutch is preserved, as these are neither an old breed nor endangered, simply a pointless cross-breed with a harliquin a some point in the past I believe??

I have seen tri-colour Dutch, and many of the other breeds you mention in your post in pets shops in my local area (e.g. many English spots, other varieties of Dutch, rex, silver fox, himalayan, etc, etc.

I am 99% sure that IN MY LOCAL AREA show/exhibition breeders are selling to pet shops despite what any of the breeders on this forum say.

Amy

Adele

21-09-2004, 04:07 PM

I'm afraid I have no interest in whether the tri-colour Dutch is preserved, as these are neither an old breed nor endangered, simply a pointless cross-breed with a harliquin a some point in the past I believe??

Amy I think it could be quite offensive to some people for you to say that any breed of rabbit is POINTLESS.
This Forum is for rabbit lovers, so if you wish to be a part of the discussion please be careful how you word things.
************************************************** ****

I am 99% sure that IN MY LOCAL AREA show/exhibition breeders are selling to pet shops despite what any of the breeders on this forum say.

Amy

That may be the case Amy, but the current discussion is not about breeders in your area, it is about those involved in the debate on this thread.
The responsible breeders on this Forum , including Sue who has kindly replied to your questions, are not accountable for what other less responsible breeders do else where.

Lazylops

21-09-2004, 04:32 PM

Amy if you are going to post on this thread can you try and stick to the point, and try to prevent yourself from attacking the breeding side of things, as this is not what the thread is about.

Pendragon

21-09-2004, 05:33 PM

I'm afraid I have no interest in whether the tri-colour Dutch is preserved, as these are neither an old breed nor endangered, simply a pointless cross-breed with a harliquin a some point in the past I believe??

Actually no. They are one of the oldest and first varieties of Dutch to have existed, and all the original Harlequins had white Dutch-style markings.

And do forgive me, but didn't you ask if anyone on here was breeding rare/endangered breeds? You many have your own criteria of what constitutes a rare breed, but Tri Dutch are rare - there are less than 10 people registered with the BRC who breed them and they have no breed club. As nobody is able to count, or regulate, non-BRC breeders, there could be five hundred breeders of them across the country for all anyone knows... but as the British Rabbit Council keeps records of what its members have, they are the only body capable of deciding what's rare and what's not!

I have seen tri-colour Dutch, and many of the other breeds you mention in your post in pets shops in my local area (e.g. many English spots, other varieties of Dutch, rex, silver fox, himalayan, etc, etc.

Yes you do get Tri Dutch in pet shops - some of the "pet supplier" breeders produce them purely for the pet market. I know of one in the Nottingham area, who is not a BRC member and just breeds to sell for pet shops. He gets £20 each for them from the shop, & they sell them for £60 each because they are "rare"! :shock:

Now if that isn't encouraging irresponsible breeding, what is?

I ask £15 each for mine, sold privately, and the money goes towards buying feed & bedding or train fares to shows. And to be honest, I've given away more than I've sold so far to friends and people I trust.

I am 99% sure that IN MY LOCAL AREA show/exhibition breeders are selling to pet shops despite what any of the breeders on this forum say.

Perhaps they are - nobody's disputing that show breeders don't sell to pet shops, but the point of this, and many other previous posts on the subject, is that they make up a very small percentage of breeds found in pet shops. And very few of them ever get into Rescue. And are they pure-bred English and Himalayans? Many cross-breeds resemble mismarked examples of these breeds.

And unless you happen to know the breeders personally, how do you know they are show breeders? Anyone can buy a pair of any pedigree breed and start churning them out, without being any part of the BRC or the show scene, like the guy I mentioned above. There's someone I know in my town who has a pair of Marten Sable Rex and breeds a few litters a year to sell to pet shops... not a BRC member and has never set foot in a rabbit show...

You asked if anyone on the forum breeds rare breeds - I said I did, and I certainly didn't expect you to devalue my response by deciding my breed isn't "rare". As a member of the Rare Varieties Rabbit Club, I think I am in a fairly good position to know the status of rare rabbit breeds in the UK.

I own them because I like them, not because of any rarity value, but because they are pretty and have great personalities, as do standard Harlequins & Magpies which I bred for 7 years when I was a teenager.

Adele

21-09-2004, 05:38 PM

Sue thank you for clarifying the situation with your rare breed bunnies, you obviously have lots and lots of experience with several different breeds of rabbits. :D..
Just a question slightly off topic...do you have an all time favourite breed of rabbit?

Pendragon

21-09-2004, 05:48 PM

I think you know the answer to this one already Adele.....!

For breathtaking looks & beauty - the Belgian Hare.
(And I am considering having another at some point, probably a Black-and-Tan Belgian Hare, which coincidentally is another rare breed currently under the wing of the Rare Varieties RC, but soon to lose its "rare" status when accepted by the British Belgian Hare Club).

For looks and personality.... ask Floyd! :D

Amy B

21-09-2004, 06:06 PM

Hi Sue

Sorry if any offence was caused by my post. Certainly not the intention. I'm sure your bunnies are lovely. If tri-colour Dutch are not the product of a cross with harliquins, then why do websites concerning the breed suggest this is the case (sorry can't rememer the URL, but it was an American site. Perhaps American tri-coloured Dutch are different in some way?)

However, I didn't ask if there were any breeders of 'rare' rabbits because we all know this word is mis-used and mis-interpreted. I asked if there were any breeders of genuinely endangered rabbits.

And yes, my post was on topic, I was simply replying to the person who said that purebreds don't turn up in pet shops, and hence don't contribute to over population.

Time for a new topic methinks...

DO BREEDERS CONTRIBUTE TO THE NUMBER OF RABBITS NEEDING HOMES?

Tamsin

21-09-2004, 06:33 PM

Quote:
DO BREEDERS CONTRIBUTE TO THE NUMBER OF RABBITS NEEDING HOMES?

I think the problem is you are lumping breeders together in one group. I've been learning a lot lately as in the past I'd done the same thing. I've learnt that there are different types and that some breeders disapprove of the methods of others as much as someone involved in rescue might.

In lose terms there are backyard/petshop breeders whose aim is to produce large numbers of rabbits for the pet trade with little care about welfare or health. No one, even breeders, dispute that this sort of breeding plays a large part in welfare concerns.

On the other hand you have breeders that produce only a few litters of rabbits a year and to whom health & welfare is very important. The bunnies they produce tend to go to other breeders or directly to vetted pet owners.

This later type don't like the backyard breeders because they give the responsible ones who breed just a few bunnies with health and temprement in mind and carefully check out homes a bad name.

Tam

oh poop I think I did an Adele

Tam

Adele

21-09-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote:

oh poop I think I did an Adele

Tam ..NOT YOU TAMSIN surely not :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol:

Tamsin

21-09-2004, 06:38 PM

:P Fixed it

Your a bad influence Adele :lol:

Adele

21-09-2004, 06:44 PM

[quote="Tamsin"]:P Fixed it

:thumb: ...I wont tell anyone if you dont Tamsin

************************************************** **

Your a bad influence Adele :lol:[/quote Tamsin)

Thats right, blame it all on me, everyone else does :? :lol: :lol: :lol:

bunnyhuggger

21-09-2004, 06:46 PM

:no: :lol:

Bunnyboarding

21-09-2004, 11:19 PM

[quote="Amy B"]Hi Sue

I asked if there were any breeders of genuinely endangered rabbits.]

Hi Amy,

I don't really know about endangered as such in domestic rabbits, but i can tell you about one that i know of that is extinct....The Patagonian.
don't ask me what it looks like 'cos i've never seen one - they died out decades ago, but is believed the Patagonian was originally used (along with a few other breeds)to create the Belgian Hare as a breed. A bit like breeds of dog like the Doberman (another big fave of mine & i own a very handsome dobie fella) who they reckon was made up out of the Rottweiller, Manchester Terrier & bit of greyhound (amongst other theories). After many generations of breeding true, this does not make it a crossbreed anymore as they are now a breed in their own right.