lesson in forage to help minor issues+ "unusal" behaviours

Benjie is now 5 1/2 & usually has guts of iron, he's on a forage only diet to reduce dust for his snuffles - staple is tree leaves & twigs. He has a huge moult in Autumn, so I wasn't surprised that he was eating more, but very surprised to find uneaten caecals x2 per week. Then the weather turned colder but he has a place under the dressing table near a radiator which traps a bit of heat for him. Heating is left on 24/7 to this one radiator to avoid sudden drops in temp overnight. (Moulting & sudden temp drops are stresses for a bun) He was still eating much more than usual but not gaining weight.
Although he was eating lots of blackthorn, this wasn't stopping the minimal dysbiosis completely. His waste poohs were minimally smaller & slightly teardrop shaped rather than the usual big round ones. Fibre seperation was excellent
I had niggling concerns about caecal function - a small impaction? perhaps early caecal coccidiosis? A large unformed caecal precipitated my trip to the vet but he was fine on examination - advise - see how he goes.

Benjie usually changes his preferred fibre to young fresh willow twigs in Jan -Feb. No idea why.
This year I offered him willow twigs + leaves early, & he ate them avidly. A week later - no uneaten caecals - waste poohs completely normal - eating his usual amount of food.

I'm used to Benjie's seasonal changes. They've been a bit different this year.
Just a lesson to remember that when we're talking about low calorie forage eg equivalent to hay & rough field grass they sometimes need a selection of alternatives offered. They know how to sort out their tummies the best.

All I can do is to research what we know forage plants contain, & make a guess about why they prefer certain forage in certain situations. We know so little, & think ourselves so clever. I'm forever amazed by how my buns can treat their minor ailments themselves, & also, when they need medication know what to eat to help it to work.

ETA a problem with a forage fed bun is that they always have beautiful soft glossy coats even when ill. Makes it tough for the poor vets!

Fascinating My rabbits have been eating lots of tree leaves for several weeks now (in addition to a few pellets, grass/hay and forage), starting with Ash, Apple, Hazel and Alder and just this week they have been having Willow. They have eaten them all with enthusiasm, but the Willow has definitely been the favourite. They have always loved to eat Willow though, but I'm not sure I have noticed any difference at different times of the year.

Your knowledge is amazing. I buy bags of herbs but never had the courage to forage incase I get it wrong.

That's really interesting. We've often said if our rabbits could help themselves to the hedgerows they'd intuitively know how to make themselves better. In summer when they'd get a big selection I love watching who favoured what & when.

2 of my three have gut stasis of unknown origin at the moment - they are normally super healthy. I'm wondering if its cause might have been dietary although my greedy girl Mouse never misses a trick food wise & is absolutely fine.

Have you any suggestions about what dried plants might be best to avoid or try. I've got a pretty fair selection here but just offering herbs readigrass & hay on top of their critical care

Last but not least, good on Benjie

Thank you for your replies.

Omi I think that some of what I notice is because of Benjie's snuffles. Many people have noticed that snuffles tends to relapse in Autumn as have I with Benjie. Benjie has a fantastic immune system as long as he doesn't get stressed, so his snuffles doesn't give much problem - a pin head of eye discharge about every 3 days, an occasional dry sneeze & that's stability for us. My gut feeling is that he changes diet to keep the snuffles under control. He's had it down to a fine art for the previous 2 years.
I'm fascinated that so many healthy rabbits eat fallen leaves if given opportunity. My personal hunch is that because they're a high fibre source, it would be beneficial for wildies to get optimum gut function before the lean times through winter. Our pet rabbits are the same species as European wildies - & have virtually all the same behaviour patterns in one form or another.

Barn Yard Bunnies. I think I started foraging when I was 5 - under strict parental supervision! At our tiny rural primary school we had a "nature study" lesson, (plants, birds, & animals) & which included walks through fields. I remember a competition at school when we got over 90 different flowers on a 1/2 mile lane & then named them all with teacher's help. Wild plants often came into conversation because they guided us when to plant our veg. I wouldn't be so confident in another country, & I'd be clueless if I'd grown up in a city. The knowledge grew naturally over many years, & there's plenty I don't know! You do the right thing by knowing your limitations in identificati

joey&boo said:

That's really interesting. We've often said if our rabbits could help themselves to the hedgerows they'd intuitively know how to make themselves better. In summer when they'd get a big selection I love watching who favoured what & when.

2 of my three have gut stasis of unknown origin at the moment - they are normally super healthy. I'm wondering if its cause might have been dietary although my greedy girl Mouse never misses a trick food wise & is absolutely fine.

Have you any suggestions about what dried plants might be best to avoid or try. I've got a pretty fair selection here but just offering herbs readigrass & hay on top of their critical care

Last but not least, good on Benjie

Click to expand...

Stasis is such a worry, & it can be so difficult to find the underlying cause.
There's an old thread experience of helping stasis prone buns with various types of forage. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ried-given-your-stasis-prone-buns-tree-leaves
It didn't seem to matter what the underlying diagnosis was - some had not been made when the thread was put up.
Donampt's Alvin - deaf (very well hidden because he felt people coming by vibration) = always under some stress (gut slow down) because he couldn't hear a "potential predator". Also unable to tolerate the smallest fruit treat eg apple.
Pretty Lupin's Nino - congenitally deformed shoulder joints, which gave arthritis at a very early age.
This thread may give you some ideas.
It's the worst time of year just now for specific forage. Bramble leaves are good for many stasis prone buns. I have a type which grows inside an urban copse & stays in leaf throughout winter. Many buns eat them neat +thorns on theleaves. My nesh buns get me to dethorn them! Some buns will eat the dethorned briars (long stems) There are a few living (springy) twigs around eg apple, crack willow, & especially weeping willow.
Basically we weaned our buns off human veg & replaced it with forage, tree/shrub leaves twigs & herbs. About twice as much low nutrient forage as human veg &tree twigs/leaves as much as they wanted. Dill & fennel, rosemary, parsley & corriander introduced slowly are often taken well by stasis buns.
We usually dry forage for over winter.
The best forage thread is very long & packed with useful information but in no particular order. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...!-2010-Forageing-Thread&p=3932530#post3932530
I hope that helps to give you some ideas, then it's over to the bunnies.

ETA It's only personal but I wonder whether readigrass is a bit high in protein for them. We didn't use it much several years ago & it may be different now.

thumps_ said:

Stasis is such a worry, & it can be so difficult to find the underlying cause.
There's an old thread experience of helping stasis prone buns with various types of forage. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ried-given-your-stasis-prone-buns-tree-leaves
It didn't seem to matter what the underlying diagnosis was - some had not been made when the thread was put up.
Donampt's Alvin - deaf (very well hidden because he felt people coming by vibration) = always under some stress (gut slow down) because he couldn't hear a "potential predator". Also unable to tolerate the smallest fruit treat eg apple.
Pretty Lupin's Nino - congenitally deformed shoulder joints, which gave arthritis at a very early age.
This thread may give you some ideas.
It's the worst time of year just now for specific forage. Bramble leaves are good for many stasis prone buns. I have a type which grows inside an urban copse & stays in leaf throughout winter. Many buns eat them neat +thorns on theleaves. My nesh buns get me to dethorn them! Some buns will eat the dethorned briars (long stems) There are a few living (springy) twigs around eg apple, crack willow, & especially weeping willow.
Basically we weaned our buns off human veg & replaced it with forage, tree/shrub leaves twigs & herbs. About twice as much low nutrient forage as human veg &tree twigs/leaves as much as they wanted. Dill & fennel, rosemary, parsley & corriander introduced slowly are often taken well by stasis buns.
We usually dry forage for over winter.
The best forage thread is very long & packed with useful information but in no particular order. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...!-2010-Forageing-Thread&p=3932530#post3932530
I hope that helps to give you some ideas, then it's over to the bunnies.

ETA It's only personal but I wonder whether readigrass is a bit high in protein for them. We didn't use it much several years ago & it may be different now.

Click to expand...

Thanks ever so much for all the information, I'm going to have a good read & digest . Boo is deaf & has eyesight issues but usually very confident. She has never refused food before sunday. They have 1 k of green oat readigrass a week between 3 & its 11% protein, is that too high? They do make splendid poo on it normally but it doesn't seem to appeal to them at the moment

Thank you for starting this thread thumps :wave:

I waited till now to respond, as I've been busy and wanted to sit down and read through properly. Well I did notice this word 'nesh' applied to your buns (taking off the bramble thorns). I thought it was just my northern upbringing :lol:

I have switched over to mainly forage, though at this time of year in London there's not an awful lot to be had. Some dried forage very kindly sent by an RU-er is helping lots Cow Parsley is still abundant but not sure for how much longer - is this high in protein? Dead nettle and brambles a-plenty.

Apple and pear leaves were extremely popular.

Regarding readigrass, I do free feed it and haven't noticed any detriment regarding the protein content, but it may not suit every bun. Fresh grass is usually preferred.

I wish I could provide a brilliant selection and let them choose for themselves what they want to eat. I also wish I could recognise blackthorn (I don't think I've seen it on my near green patches)

Thank you again thumps

MightyMax said:

Thank you for starting this thread thumps :wave:

I waited till now to respond, as I've been busy and wanted to sit down and read through properly. Well I did notice this word 'nesh' applied to your buns (taking off the bramble thorns). I thought it was just my northern upbringing :lol:

I have switched over to mainly forage, though at this time of year in London there's not an awful lot to be had. Some dried forage very kindly sent by an RU-er is helping lots Cow Parsley is still abundant but not sure for how much longer - is this high in protein? Dead nettle and brambles a-plenty.

Apple and pear leaves were extremely popular.

Regarding readigrass, I do free feed it and haven't noticed any detriment regarding the protein content, but it may not suit every bun. Fresh grass is usually preferred.

I wish I could provide a brilliant selection and let them choose for themselves what they want to eat. I also wish I could recognise blackthorn (I don't think I've seen it on my near green patches)

Thank you again thumps

Click to expand...

The word nesh? Yes, a bit of a give away of family roots! I've never found a suitable alternative! I'm a long standing foreigner in Wiltshire, & was completely thrown by a local lady who said she couldn't quilt. (It means swallow here)

Blackthorn is easy to recognise at a distance in spring. It has profuse, fine white flowers on long stems, before any leaves appear, usually in April. Seems to prefer a limey soil & likes moisture. Hawthorn flowers look more like curds on a greenish haze at a distance & come about 3 weeks later.
When there are no leaves, the vicious needle like blackthorn thorns - 1/2" - 1" long are eaily seen. Fortunately by the time the leaves are ready for buns - when the sloes are fully ripe with a whitish bloom - beginning of September, there's a good 6" of leafy twig with neither thorns nor sloes on it. The leaves aren't shiney & have a very slight bluish tinge to the green. The underside slightly lighter & deeply veined, although there is some variability in the leaf.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=2CdGWPLtJMiT8Qe70pOgAQ
I hope this helps a bit. Middle row 2nd photo is really typical of a blackthorn hedge. You can pick them out several fields away when they're in flower! Much like hawthorn they can be in hedges or form small trees

I wish that Benjie & previously Thumper would eat more variety, but both have chronic infections & opted for a limited almost identical diet except that Benjie eats willow twigs during winter & has never taken to sow thistle. Benjie also likes a selection of fresh flowers only NOT the leaves, primroses - very yummy, lawn daisies, coltsfoot, (& of course all parts of dandelions.)

Thank you for the reassurance about the readigrass. I'll remember that.

My rabbits have always viewed any tree leaves or twigs as a treat, but as they are very greedy rabbits generally it's hard (for me anyway) to notice much preference between varieties. What I do find interesting is that the rabbits are Mum, Dad and Son and I find that if one takes a dislike to something (rare but it has happened - e.g. Buddleia) they all do).

You may have noticed that generally on the forum at the moment there are so many rabbits with Stasis. Do you think this is anything to do with the cold or maybe that combined with a change (for most) between fresh and dried food?

Just to say that I have always had a keen but amateurish interest in Botany and the link between that and rabbit diet for me means that I am fascinated by your posts. I have already read most of the old ones

Poor Benji but he's a clever boy!

This time of year is so difficult for a "forage only" bunny. I'm sure Hector misses his fresh leaves; he gets so excited when I bring a few in!

I too am struggling a bit at the moment. He's turning his nose up at things he normally likes; dried coltsfoot for example. Dried ribwort plantain is all he really wants. Even the broadleaf isn't going down too readily.

thumps_ said:

The word nesh? Yes, a bit of a give away of family roots! I've never found a suitable alternative! I'm a long standing foreigner in Wiltshire, & was completely thrown by a local lady who said she couldn't quilt. (It means swallow here)

Blackthorn is easy to recognise at a distance in spring. It has profuse, fine white flowers on long stems, before any leaves appear, usually in April. Seems to prefer a limey soil & likes moisture. Hawthorn flowers look more like curds on a greenish haze at a distance & come about 3 weeks later.
When there are no leaves, the vicious needle like blackthorn thorns - 1/2" - 1" long are eaily seen. Fortunately by the time the leaves are ready for buns - when the sloes are fully ripe with a whitish bloom - beginning of September, there's a good 6" of leafy twig with neither thorns nor sloes on it. The leaves aren't shiney & have a very slight bluish tinge to the green. The underside slightly lighter & deeply veined, although there is some variability in the leaf.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=2CdGWPLtJMiT8Qe70pOgAQ
I hope this helps a bit. Middle row 2nd photo is really typical of a blackthorn hedge. You can pick them out several fields away when they're in flower! Much like hawthorn they can be in hedges or form small trees

I wish that Benjie & previously Thumper would eat more variety, but both have chronic infections & opted for a limited almost identical diet except that Benjie eats willow twigs during winter & has never taken to sow thistle. Benjie also likes a selection of fresh flowers only NOT the leaves, primroses - very yummy, lawn daisies, coltsfoot, (& of course all parts of dandelions.)

Thank you for the reassurance about the readigrass. I'll remember that.

Click to expand...

Thank you thumps

I hadn't heard the word quilt. I don't think that was in common parlance before I left Yorkshire so I never learned it's true meaning :lol:

Thanks for the id re blackthorn. From what you've described and the link, I haven't seen any down here. I will have to venture out into countryside in spring and have a look. It sounds to be a very useful and therapeutic tree.

Regarding the stasis buns on here at the moment, I was wondering also about the causes. Maybe there's not more than usual, or maybe more people have joined with this problem in their rabbits. I thought of the weather, and I can only say that the weather being changeable mild and cold could have made a difference. To bugs maybe, or to resilience?

I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts xx

Omi said:

My rabbits have always viewed any tree leaves or twigs as a treat, but as they are very greedy rabbits generally it's hard (for me anyway) to notice much preference between varieties. What I do find interesting is that the rabbits are Mum, Dad and Son and I find that if one takes a dislike to something (rare but it has happened - e.g. Buddleia) they all do).

You may have noticed that generally on the forum at the moment there are so many rabbits with Stasis. Do you think this is anything to do with the cold or maybe that combined with a change (for most) between fresh and dried food?

Just to say that I have always had a keen but amateurish interest in Botany and the link between that and rabbit diet for me means that I am fascinated by your posts. I have already read most of the old ones

Click to expand...

Very interesting observations Omi although I'm just like you -notice something & try to make sense of it. My thoughts are all "fluid" and amenable to correction!
Re. if 1 rabbit stops eating something, the others do. I had an unusually close relationship with Thumper from the beginning & the burning question how do baby wildies (buns in general) know what to eat & how to behave, given the absence of any parenting?
Tentative answer - some is pure instinct, but much is from watching others (me) or learned experience from experiments. Thumper & Benjie have different intact instinct behaviours. Benjie has the complete front & back leg digging behaviour. Thumper only had the front leg scrabble & ended up with a huge mound under his tummy!. I had to get down on all 4's with a trowel to show him the "back leg" movement. He got it immediately. So, I was splitting up some plants & dug several holes for them. Great! Thumper had a digging fest. It was dry so I watered the bottom of the holes before replanting. Thumper copies & wee's in the bottom of his holes!
I chased magpies off the garden with a water hose. (They were a danger to Thumper - pecking his eyes out) Thumper watched. Soon, whenever saw a magpie he'd charge to within a yard of it, do a 180 degree turn in the air & wee in it's face with unerring accuracy. None of this is normal rabbit behaviour! He learned it from me.
Benjie was very interested in my food. I didn't want a rabbit in my plate every time I ate! I made myself strong onion gravy, potatoes & cooked veg. When Benjie jumped up to investigate I said "a a" - he could investigate but not touch! The smell & warmth put him off & after 3 days he lost interest in my food completely & permanently.
It doesn't surprise me that if 1 rabbit experienced ill effects after overindulging on budlia, the others learned to avoid it.
Wildies won't eat creeping buttercup - it's poisonous. Yet apparently 96% wildies are able to inactivate the poison. It seems that I whole warren avoids creeping buttercup because 4% die if they eat it.
A final thought. Rabbits are highly adaptable creatures. Mine are free ranging house buns & live in perfect harmony with me. I think the adaptability is to do with a high capacity to learn.

Yes, I think that there are "stasis seasons" too. The Autumn one is very interesting because it's a time when snuffles tends to relapse also. What might 2 totally different illnesses have in common? I can only think of increased cortisol secretion = stress. High cortisol levels both lowers the immune system & slows down gut motility. A bun in ileus typically has a low or below normal WBC.
What is stress for a rabbit & my rabbit in particular?
Marie Kubiak taught me that moulting is a stress - they have to increase energy intake by 40% to moult successfully = eat more.
Rabbits don't drink water naturally, fluids come from dew or sap in fresh plants, so they don't get driven by thirst as much as we do. I think this period can stretch "throughput" capacity if the gut is sluggish, so bunny has to "make a decision" whether to go for energy fibre or water. There are certainly some rabbits (Donampt's Alvin was 1 of the 1st I knew of) where the 1st sign of gut slow down is drinking less water, & stasis could be averted by rehydration if caught early enough. So yes, I see a potential link there between the change from fresh to dried food as this also happens in Autumn. At the end, with his gut scarred throughout, Thumper couldn't manage the change over to dry food. However in normal circumstances I'd say that there is significant gut slow down for this to become a problem.

Temperature change & stasis is most marked for house buns - very warm room usually well over 20 C in the evening & heating off at night causes big temp. fluctuations. It's the degree of fluctuation which is the issue. The fluctuation is usually less for outdoor buns, although this year we seemed to go from summer to winter unduely fast! Apparently the wildie burrow is a fairly constant 10C throughout the year.

I find another huge factor because I have to be partner bun 1st.to Thumper - never well enough to neuter, & then Benjie - not expected to live out the year. There's always the big routines of affection "cuddles" morning & evening. I'm usually at home 24/7.
My shock when I had to go away for a day - left 4.30 am after a big cuddle, returned 6.00pm - Benjie hadn't eaten a morsel!!! Fortunately after a cuddle he ate voraciously. (I had to teach him that it was OK if I was away in the day, & find him a substitute partner for me on the rare occsion I'm away for 3 days). Benjie has guts of iron as long as he has enough cuddles from his human partner or substitute.

Finally there's the temperament of the bun - like us with eg "exam nerves" - some get GI motility problems & some don't.

Apparently some research indicated that lignin (in twigs & tree leaves) had no effect on the healthy adult rabbit gut. That's far from the experience of so many of us - probably well over a hundred stasis prone buns! Ah! perhaps our rabbit guts aren't as healthy as they could be for whatever reason? Lignin is a totally undigestable fibre unlike cellulose which is digested in the caecum. I see the tree leaves & twigs delivering high fibre in a "compact form" - trying to optimise GI motility "throughput" to a point where factors we can't control cease to precipitate stasis. It is no substitute for meds when buns go into stasis & no substitute for trying to find underlying medical conditions which have caused stasis & which need addressing appropriately.

This thread is so interesting.

I've long found Autumn to be a worse time for Hector. He isn't "Ill" but he isn't right either. I didn't know about the water and thirst (or lack of it). Very often, nothing at all during the summer when he had plenty of leaves so it makes sense he is lacking in water now.

I'm going to go in search of brambles tomorrow. There is usually a plentiful supply in the woods.

SJH said:

This thread is so interesting.

I've long found Autumn to be a worse time for Hector. He isn't "Ill" but he isn't right either. I didn't know about the water and thirst (or lack of it). Very often, nothing at all during the summer when he had plenty of leaves so it makes sense he is lacking in water now.

I'm going to go in search of brambles tomorrow. There is usually a plentiful supply in the woods.

Click to expand...

That sounds good. The brambles which grow in woods are often in leaf throughout the year & have big leaves! It might be that he'd be more willing to drink distilled water (I don't know how often your tap water has been recycled or how heavily it's treated! Buns have an incredibly sensitive nose)

I've had a number of sick bunnies this year, and it's hard to know if you're reading too much into it, but they definitely seemed to have preferences or aversions to various types of forage at differing times of their illnesses. When Jeremy was sick with RHD2, I had a sudden panic one day that he probably shouldn't have hawthorn as it's a blood thinner, and at that time of year they were getting lots of it. I started to observe, and noticed that he wasn't touching it. He wanted to eat mixed dried herbs along with wild geranium and herb robert, both of which are supposed to be astringent and good for internal bleeding.

When Delilah had myxi, her preferences changed throughout her progress. How much of it is just the natural expression of what you 'fancy' at any given time, v how much is instinctively knowing what you need, I don't know. She went through phases where she'd eat nothing but willow, then she went off that and stuffed her face with cow parsley. A couple of weeks later, she wanted plantain. Later still, she wanted golden rod and geranium.

Like I say, I don't know if I'm reading more into it or not, but the things she wanted did seem to chime with the sorts of things you might expect them to want to eat at various phases of illness. I see no harm in offering a nice mixture of things, and if the bun is showing a particular preference for one thing at one time, as long as there's no reason not to, I'd happily provide more of that particular thing to suit for that phase in time.

Lovely to meet up with you again Santa.
Thank you for posting your experience of your rabbit's preference for forage during illness. That's awesome!! Well done for bringing your buns through RHD2 & myxi.
I think that as you watch how your buns use forage over time, you'll know that you're not reading too much into it, but as I say always be open that they may be eating what's good for them for reasons we're unaware of.
I think one point is that they have an amazing capacity to self regulate.

Your thoughts regarding a necessary increase in water intake to compensate for the change from fresh to dry food in Autumn makes absolute sense.

I agree, Blackberry leaves growing in the woods do seem to retain their leaves throughout the Winter and are usually enormous. We also still have some Cow Parsley, Common Hogweed, Dandelion, young Dock and young Cleavers.

I must admit I had never considered the change in temperature that indoor rabbits usually experience. My rabbits live outside in a shed and I'd always thought that they were at a disadvantage because of the cold temperatures, but maybe not if it's the change in temperature that is more important.

thumps_ said:

I find another huge factor because I have to be partner bun 1st.to Thumper - never well enough to neuter, & then Benjie - not expected to live out the year. There's always the big routines of affection "cuddles" morning & evening. I'm usually at home 24/7.
My shock when I had to go away for a day - left 4.30 am after a big cuddle, returned 6.00pm - Benjie hadn't eaten a morsel!!! Fortunately after a cuddle he ate voraciously. (I had to teach him that it was OK if I was away in the day, & find him a substitute partner for me on the rare occsion I'm away for 3 days). Benjie has guts of iron as long as he has enough cuddles from his human partner or substitute.

Finally there's the temperament of the bun - like us with eg "exam nerves" - some get GI motility problems & some don't.

Apparently some research indicated that lignin (in twigs & tree leaves) had no effect on the healthy adult rabbit gut. That's far from the experience of so many of us - probably well over a hundred stasis prone buns! Ah! perhaps our rabbit guts aren't as healthy as they could be for whatever reason? Lignin is a totally undigestable fibre unlike cellulose which is digested in the caecum. I see the tree leaves & twigs delivering high fibre in a "compact form" - trying to optimise GI motility "throughput" to a point where factors we can't control cease to precipitate stasis. It is no substitute for meds when buns go into stasis & no substitute for trying to find underlying medical conditions which have caused stasis & which need addressing appropriately.

Click to expand...

These points are really interesting thumps. Stress I believe is one of the underlying weaknesses in rabbits. Even those most confident can succumb and it's not obvious they have a 'fragile' side. I was astounded to hear that your Benjie never ate a thing whilst you were away!

Also the fact that research has shown lignin to have no effect on a healthy rabbit gut. As you say, maybe the healthy rabbit gut is more a rarity than we imagined.

Thank you again

MightyMax said:

These points are really interesting thumps. Stress I believe is one of the underlying weaknesses in rabbits. Even those most confident can succumb and it's not obvious they have a 'fragile' side. I was astounded to hear that your Benjie never ate a thing whilst you were away!

Also the fact that research has shown lignin to have no effect on a healthy rabbit gut. As you say, maybe the healthy rabbit gut is more a rarity than we imagined.

Thank you again

Click to expand...

The "fragile side" is enormous despite their different temperaments. It's possible that I'm more aware of it because I'm lousy as a partner bun in warning them of danger because my senses are different to theirs. I'm convinced that avoiding predation is at the top of their mind. Partner? I'm convinced that some of it is that 4 ears, nostrils & eyes are better than 2!
My overwhelming interest has been trying to understand their rabbitness in our relationship. Some is subtle. Benjie presents me with a huge challenge because he stresses at the smallest thing, but looks like a perfectly normal bunny to a visitor. He's learned that humans are safe, so he'll come over to investigate. Start to understand him - abandoned in a town as a baby for we don't know how long, but even if only 24 hours, we've a very high population of urban foxes, there are cats, & traffic with bright lights. Those are obvious.
Less obvious is that rabbits' main senses by which they percieve their dangerous world as prey animals is hearing & smell. Benjie's smell is compromised with a snuffles flare up & probably to some extent all the time. I've few classical signs of relapse, but huge signs of compromised sense of smell. He'll run away from me unless I'm close. Rabbits recognise us by smell. He feels vibration from my footsteps on the floor, & hears the rustle of my cloths, but can't tell who or what I am = could be a predator - run for it. Hre also starts to head bob -usually seen in rabbits with impaired vision. At best they mainly have monocular vision = no depth, large angle of vision, probably like our peripheral vision, mainly movement. Head bobbing is a rabbit attempt to get "binocular vision = more depth. I think he tries to compensate for lack of smell by head bobbing. He starts to do it to any object which isn't in it's usual place, sometimes even a shadow! From Benjie's viewpoint - can't smell it, it's not making a sound, wasn't there before, so must have moved there - possibly alive= very scary. What did he learn when abandoned in a town as a baby? Even if as little as 24 hours when rescued, we have an incredibly high population of urban foxes, cats, & traffic with bright lights. I'm amazed he survived.
What I learned about him early on from his pasteurellosis - nasal & eye discharge + 2 abscesses, was that after only 2 weeks of rescue 1 abscess on his hind foot had healed, & the abscess on his thigh had burst & almost completely granulated. Benjie has a fantastic immune system as long as he doesn't get stressed. What really worried me of course was that we knew about the abscesses near the skin, but had no idea whether there was spread of infection to internal organs.

To the casual visitor he's a perfectly normal, well balanced bun. He comes out to investigate them. I smile that he won't allow them to stroke him - & keeps just out of distance unless I stroke him & let the visitor take over! Why? I reckon that stroking is also putting our scent on him = "mine". So funny that when I got a substitute partner for when I had to go away. When we were both in the room he wouldn't let either of us stroke him at 1st. but if only 1 was in the room no probs. I think he was a bit confused about which one of us he should allow to show "mine"! It was back to me 1st with a few reserves & let Tam take over. So Benjie has a heirarchy of partner humans!

On the other hand I know him as a "stress head bun", who presents challenges. He started thumping downstairs & rushing upstairs to his safe place, when I was upstairs at night. Took me a while to realise that hewas used to the sound of traffic but could see the reflection of headlights in the patio doors. When I drew the curtains at dusk - no problems.
Signs of snuffles relapse - nose is damp, more facial grooming than usual, runs away from me unless I'm very close. (He feels my approach - floor vibration - & hears the rustle of my clothes,but can't smell me which is how rabbits recognise us) Benjie doesn't know who or what is approaching = run for it! He doesn't seem to recognise my voice. Another sign is head bobbing usually seen in buns with impaired eyesight. He'll head bob at anything which has been slightly moved & even a shadow. No sound of movement - no smell to identify it, so he head bobs to try to maximise on normal vision. For a strongly predator aware bunny, compromised smell can be a huge stress.
Stroking Benjie = allogrooming gets him so relaxed he's almost asleep. I could write too much about that & experience of using it to help sick buns to "de stress" ( he also demolished my small lavender bush which is bunny safe & said to be very calming)

Thumper was also strongly predator aware, but felt safe indoors. He was an amazing bunny with an outstanding capacity to relate to humans - & very well balanced - the great explorer of the world, until he lost "fitness with his GI issues"!

I'm O/T a bit, but as well as meds, forage etc, I agree with you totally MightyMax, IMO a sick bun knows they are more predator vulnerable, & wildies vulnerable to other buns for position in the heirarchy of the warren mainly for grazing rights & best burrows. IMO a sick bun also has several subtle stresses of sensory loss or impairmed fitness & it can show in GI or immune system issues.
Sorry, my overwhelming interest has been trying to understand my own buns in terms of their rabbitness as well as enjoying a lovely human/bun relationship. I also believe that my attempts to reduce their stress has been paramount in helping both to fight their individual chronic illness.