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Uterine Cancer
- Thread starter Thumps
- Start date
I once had a conversation with a breeder about this subject.
Her beleief was doe's that are being bred from dont get Uterine Cancer as much as doe's that arent being bred from.
Something to do with the hormone's a Pregnant doe produce's that a non Pregnant doe dosent.
I'm not sure what I think of this but she had never lost a doe to Uterine Cancer.
She also said that the stats we have on Uterine Cancer (that 80-90% of doe's will get it) mainly come from Lab Rabbit's, where all manner of horrid test's have been done on them. So maybe these stats about Uterine Cancer are not total accurate?
The way satistic's are collected and presented can be manipulated to reflect different points of view.
Breeding your doe too prevent Uterine Cancer is not a valid reason in my eye's. The best thing you can do for your doe is take her to the Vet's and get her spayed when old enough (normaly six months) This will prevent unwanted Rabbit's and cut out any risk of Uterine Cancer.
Louise
Her beleief was doe's that are being bred from dont get Uterine Cancer as much as doe's that arent being bred from.
Something to do with the hormone's a Pregnant doe produce's that a non Pregnant doe dosent.
I'm not sure what I think of this but she had never lost a doe to Uterine Cancer.
She also said that the stats we have on Uterine Cancer (that 80-90% of doe's will get it) mainly come from Lab Rabbit's, where all manner of horrid test's have been done on them. So maybe these stats about Uterine Cancer are not total accurate?
The way satistic's are collected and presented can be manipulated to reflect different points of view.
Breeding your doe too prevent Uterine Cancer is not a valid reason in my eye's. The best thing you can do for your doe is take her to the Vet's and get her spayed when old enough (normaly six months) This will prevent unwanted Rabbit's and cut out any risk of Uterine Cancer.
Louise
I have to say the whole issue of uterine cancer is something very new to me!
Along with an awful lot else which wasn't known about rabbit health when I first bred rabbits about 30 years ago, it didn't appear to be there....
I owned many girls, most were bred from, but I cannot say I ever lost one from this.... most of my girls went into their 3rd and 4th years in good health, if not longer. Poshpwas was 6 when she died of natural causes.... and I could name a few others. The only problem I had was when our much-loved pet Honey Bunny aged 7, was accidentally mated by Angus - a sooty-fawn English Lop cross - and she died from haemorrhage during the birth. The vet could not save her.
When I stopped breeding in 1983 I gave my Tri-colour Dutch - a buck and two does - to my friend Marion. She bred a few litters on, and eventually her last Tris were a pair of does - sisters - never bred from, who died aged 9, of old age.
I have heard of many other female rabbits, usually Dutch I have to admit, that have gone on to 10 or even 12, without any health problems at all!
I don't mean to disrespect any research that has been done, but knowing all this, you can't blame me for wondering!!!
Along with an awful lot else which wasn't known about rabbit health when I first bred rabbits about 30 years ago, it didn't appear to be there....
I owned many girls, most were bred from, but I cannot say I ever lost one from this.... most of my girls went into their 3rd and 4th years in good health, if not longer. Poshpwas was 6 when she died of natural causes.... and I could name a few others. The only problem I had was when our much-loved pet Honey Bunny aged 7, was accidentally mated by Angus - a sooty-fawn English Lop cross - and she died from haemorrhage during the birth. The vet could not save her.
When I stopped breeding in 1983 I gave my Tri-colour Dutch - a buck and two does - to my friend Marion. She bred a few litters on, and eventually her last Tris were a pair of does - sisters - never bred from, who died aged 9, of old age.
I have heard of many other female rabbits, usually Dutch I have to admit, that have gone on to 10 or even 12, without any health problems at all!
I don't mean to disrespect any research that has been done, but knowing all this, you can't blame me for wondering!!!
I've heard several cases where rescues have spayed older does and found uterine cancer, so the rabbits had a lucky escape.
Dutches do seem to live a long time! 3/4 years isn't what I would consider old for a bunny in general though I think the average is more 5-7 years.
Problem in breeding does can be a sign of uterine cancer developing:
http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/uterine.htm
Hope that helps,
Tamsin
Dutches do seem to live a long time! 3/4 years isn't what I would consider old for a bunny in general though I think the average is more 5-7 years.
Problem in breeding does can be a sign of uterine cancer developing:
http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/uterine.htm
Hope that helps,
Tamsin
rngpwelfare
Mama Doe
I can say that it is defeinatly a problem in does in the age bracket of 4.5years plus.
This year has been my worst we have had three does already that on speying were found with sizable lumps all of the said does were in this age bracket and all have been caught early enough to have recovered.
When I first started the rescue I took on a five year old to keep as my own.
She went to be spayed an was found to be full of tummors. We brought her home and were told that she would need regular checks to make sure that it hadn't spread to her lungs. Also that she would be lucky to live another 6 months.
She managed 10 months and had to be pts just before christmas. A lovely rabbit who didn't deserve to lose her life so quickley.
I would always have a doe neutered from now on. As for does that have been breed from. I don't know but it would be interesting to find out.
This year has been my worst we have had three does already that on speying were found with sizable lumps all of the said does were in this age bracket and all have been caught early enough to have recovered.
When I first started the rescue I took on a five year old to keep as my own.
She went to be spayed an was found to be full of tummors. We brought her home and were told that she would need regular checks to make sure that it hadn't spread to her lungs. Also that she would be lucky to live another 6 months.
She managed 10 months and had to be pts just before christmas. A lovely rabbit who didn't deserve to lose her life so quickley.
I would always have a doe neutered from now on. As for does that have been breed from. I don't know but it would be interesting to find out.
Thank you for the replies. My curisousity stems from now having Jessica, a 3 year old Dutch. She had a tumour removed a month ago, it was almost the same weight as her, poor girl. She's all recovered now though and a very happy girl. Her previous owner for whatever reasons didn't notice her strange shaped and hard tummy for quite a while. He only noticed as she couldn't lie down properly. So a word of warning unless you plan to seriously breed always always get your girls done as soon as you can. I hate to think how many females are left to suffer with this.
Angela
Angela
I wanted to start up this thread again I have just spoken to a breeder with a private rescue who also is against neutering just on the chance that cancer might happen. And he gives only lost one in x years etc etc. The thing is that all items I have read on the net seem to not have anything to back them up and when they do its papers so old they are impossible to get hold of. Does anyone have any upto date info or any personal experince ie going in for neutering and there is a lump there? I am very very nervous about putting in an animal for an op after what happened last time. But the first stage of bonding last night went so well, I am very torn.
The study done in 1958 is the one the 80% figure comes from:
There was also a survety done in 1998 with found:
I'm not sure the second one would count as a random sample? I think there is definately an indication that the chances or uterine cancer increase in older rabbits.
Perhaps we could survey rescue centres that routinely spay does and find out the incidence of cancer found. The trouble is ages aren't always known.
Tam
There was also a survety done in 1998 with found:
I'm not sure the second one would count as a random sample? I think there is definately an indication that the chances or uterine cancer increase in older rabbits.
Perhaps we could survey rescue centres that routinely spay does and find out the incidence of cancer found. The trouble is ages aren't always known.
Tam
LurcherGirl
Mama Doe
I have got an entire female doe, now 5 1/2 years old. She was never bred from, but for personal reasons (long story) I had never had her neutered. However, for the last two years or so, she has had regular ultra sound scans to detect any cancer as soon as possible. Up to now, they have always come back clear! (Thank god).
How do you know this? Have all your rabbits had post mortems when they died?
I agree with Tamsin, that a three or four year old rabbit is not old yet... My oldest pair is six and 5 1/2 years old now and although I consider them to be senior rabbits, I don't consider them really old yet ... And they are larger sized lops which are meant to have shorter life spans...
Vera
How do you know this? Have all your rabbits had post mortems when they died?
I agree with Tamsin, that a three or four year old rabbit is not old yet... My oldest pair is six and 5 1/2 years old now and although I consider them to be senior rabbits, I don't consider them really old yet ... And they are larger sized lops which are meant to have shorter life spans...
Vera
Hi there, this is an interesting thread, and I think the individual has to make up their own mind what is best for their individual rabbit.
I agree that the statistics look fairly scary and may make folk feel compelled to have their Does spayed.
However, based on my own experience with around 200 to 300 Does, most of whom have not been spayed, we have only lost one Doe to Uterine Cancer, and three to stomach Cancer.
I believe that Stomach Cancer has about the same incident rate as Uterine Cancer, and you cannot take much preventative action for this, just insure that the rabbits diet is well balanced and high in fibre.
We have not had Post mortems carried out on the Does, as 90% of the Deaths were through obvious causes, ie. organ failure through old age etc.
I have quite a lot of Associates who have lost young, fit Does through or after surgery for spaying, and the risk is that one in twelve (approx from what I can remember from reading a statistic somewhere bu this may be inaccurate :? )will have serious post op. after affects or sadly die of secondary problems like infection.
My philosophy is this: We have a naturalistic approach with the rabbits, that is, giving regularly health checks, feeling around the abdomen for any bloating or discomfort, and watching general behaviour.
If there is a problem brewing we take immediately action and have full tests at the Vets.
As in Humans, the risk of uterine Cancer increase with age, but if a Doe gets Cancer at 5 plus this is around the average life expectancy, and at least rabbits who do develop this dreadful illness do not have to suffer if action is taken quickly.
I feel that weighing up the risk of invasive surgery with the risk of a Doe getting Cancer in later life, I tend to opt for the non surgical route.
This is just my own philosophy, and it has developed from seeing and hearing about quite a lot of Does dying after spaying, and only a very few dying of Uterine Cancer.
Our Does are typically over 5, never had litters and all healthy, and free of problems.
I think Louise is correct in that tests undertaken on Lab. bunnies is not a real gauge of what happens in a more natural environment, stress can cause cancer too ( I believe) and Lab bunnies may experience more stress than usual.
I think when you have only one or two rabbits you perhaps tend to have a different general philosophy on rabbit care, whereas those of us with multiple rabbits and having observed a large number of rabbits than the norm over the years, may persent a completely new slant on things.
Facts and figures are all very well, but hands on experience should count a little too.
I have a different philosophy on castrating Bucks, but that is due to the fact I feel surgery is less invasive.
I agree that the statistics look fairly scary and may make folk feel compelled to have their Does spayed.
However, based on my own experience with around 200 to 300 Does, most of whom have not been spayed, we have only lost one Doe to Uterine Cancer, and three to stomach Cancer.
I believe that Stomach Cancer has about the same incident rate as Uterine Cancer, and you cannot take much preventative action for this, just insure that the rabbits diet is well balanced and high in fibre.
We have not had Post mortems carried out on the Does, as 90% of the Deaths were through obvious causes, ie. organ failure through old age etc.
I have quite a lot of Associates who have lost young, fit Does through or after surgery for spaying, and the risk is that one in twelve (approx from what I can remember from reading a statistic somewhere bu this may be inaccurate :? )will have serious post op. after affects or sadly die of secondary problems like infection.
My philosophy is this: We have a naturalistic approach with the rabbits, that is, giving regularly health checks, feeling around the abdomen for any bloating or discomfort, and watching general behaviour.
If there is a problem brewing we take immediately action and have full tests at the Vets.
As in Humans, the risk of uterine Cancer increase with age, but if a Doe gets Cancer at 5 plus this is around the average life expectancy, and at least rabbits who do develop this dreadful illness do not have to suffer if action is taken quickly.
I feel that weighing up the risk of invasive surgery with the risk of a Doe getting Cancer in later life, I tend to opt for the non surgical route.
This is just my own philosophy, and it has developed from seeing and hearing about quite a lot of Does dying after spaying, and only a very few dying of Uterine Cancer.
Our Does are typically over 5, never had litters and all healthy, and free of problems.
I think Louise is correct in that tests undertaken on Lab. bunnies is not a real gauge of what happens in a more natural environment, stress can cause cancer too ( I believe) and Lab bunnies may experience more stress than usual.
I think when you have only one or two rabbits you perhaps tend to have a different general philosophy on rabbit care, whereas those of us with multiple rabbits and having observed a large number of rabbits than the norm over the years, may persent a completely new slant on things.
Facts and figures are all very well, but hands on experience should count a little too.
I have a different philosophy on castrating Bucks, but that is due to the fact I feel surgery is less invasive.
I have been trying to find out if there is any general advice that vets are running off? Ie if there are any offical/semi offical lines that the vets are taking.
I think lab animal experiments are hard to use as the situation they are in is not ideal, they are not treated/fed well (IMHO) and probably not really treated an an animal that might live as old as 10.
The other question is are some animals dying and we think its natural causes but its something else?
I have to say that the pull through rate of the operation does scare me. I have an uneutered bunnie that I have the choice to try out the home bonding situation next week. But I am not sure I am happy with neutering her I think as the rescuer is against it. If something happened I would just feel so bad, I know I would normally but its like going against someones wishes. Erm I think I am not explaining that well but I kinda think you know what I mean.
I think lab animal experiments are hard to use as the situation they are in is not ideal, they are not treated/fed well (IMHO) and probably not really treated an an animal that might live as old as 10.
The other question is are some animals dying and we think its natural causes but its something else?
I have to say that the pull through rate of the operation does scare me. I have an uneutered bunnie that I have the choice to try out the home bonding situation next week. But I am not sure I am happy with neutering her I think as the rescuer is against it. If something happened I would just feel so bad, I know I would normally but its like going against someones wishes. Erm I think I am not explaining that well but I kinda think you know what I mean.
AmberUK said:I have been trying to find out if there is any general advice that vets are running off? Ie if there are any offical/semi offical lines that the vets are taking.
/quote]
I think Vets recommend Spaying based upon the statistics available, however, having read some of the literature provided, although I agree with what the Vets say, I do not think enough is said about the risks of surgery.
I have had many Clients annoyed at finding out ALL the facts of the risks of surgery post Op, but these details were not made readily available at the time.
I guess 1) Unless you ask the Vet directly and they are prepared to research the other side of things to give you a really balanced perspective, they will only present the aspects that SUPPORT spaying.
2) Due to so many rabbits being in Rescues and needing rehoming, I kinda feel that perhaps views are swayed by other issues, such as ensuring that as few rabbits as possible can breed.
In conclusion, some Vets may promote spaying for ethical issues as well as for the benefits of dramatically cutting the Cancer risk.
The trouble is, bunnies tend to succumb to gut problems more than anything else, so I am more concerned about that than the spaying issue.
A lot of Does come through surgery absolutely fine though, and it does have its benefits, but it seems drastic action to take INCASE Cancer arises, this is just my own view. After all, the Uks Doctors do not advocate this cause of action for all us young females incase we get uterine Cancer, oh gawd, the NHS would have permanent bed blocking if that was the case :roll: :lol:
I do not wish to put folk off from having their Doe spayed if that is what they feel comfortable with, I do think however that you need to very carefully weigh up all the pros and cons properly before you decide to go ahead.
I think another thing to consider when deciding is the behaviour benefits. Unspayed does may have false pregnacies and maybe 'grumpy' or agressive when you invade their hutch.
There are quite a lot of female rabbits handed in to rescues because of behaviour problems.
Tam
There are quite a lot of female rabbits handed in to rescues because of behaviour problems.
Tam
beck
Mama Doe
This has made interesting reading, is there any info on the risks involved with spaying for different breeds?
Blueberry can be spayed soon and I have to say I have been worrying about it more the closer it gets, she is leaving afew currents around but thats no big deal and she doesn't have any behaviour issues.
The vets I use recommend spaying but how much research they've done or their success rate I don't know.
Is spaying essential for bonding?
Blueberry can be spayed soon and I have to say I have been worrying about it more the closer it gets, she is leaving afew currents around but thats no big deal and she doesn't have any behaviour issues.
The vets I use recommend spaying but how much research they've done or their success rate I don't know.
Is spaying essential for bonding?
But are animals coming into the rescues because people are not looking after them correctly? How many people dump a bunnie at the end of the garden and expect it to love them? Then saying they are in the rescues because of behaviour problems is just a pile of toss (not saying you talk tosh Tamsin just that some people do). Its getting the facts and the info to not effect each other that is difficult.
On operation success rates. Is the success rate of rabbits coming out of sugury ok the same for all ops? I know that some ops like cancer and dental problems has its own effect on success because the animal comes in after being sick/weak or having problems eating. But if you only take the rate of death due to surgery problems what sucess rates are there?
On operation success rates. Is the success rate of rabbits coming out of sugury ok the same for all ops? I know that some ops like cancer and dental problems has its own effect on success because the animal comes in after being sick/weak or having problems eating. But if you only take the rate of death due to surgery problems what sucess rates are there?
I had a breeding doe that was retired and rehomed. She sadly did not enjoy her new home for very long but died of Uterine Cancer.
When considering statistics please also remember that most animals and certainly rabbits that die are usually not seen by a vet lone alone have had a PM conducted to find out what actually is wrong - sorry if that info has been posted already - in a hurry
When considering statistics please also remember that most animals and certainly rabbits that die are usually not seen by a vet lone alone have had a PM conducted to find out what actually is wrong - sorry if that info has been posted already - in a hurry
LurcherGirl
Mama Doe
I would also like to point out again, that unless a post mortem is done on an animal, it cannot be said for sure what the rabbit died of! I had one rabbit die without obvious cause within 36 hours after the first symptom (GI stasis). A pm revealed that it was acute liver inflammation. Without pm we just would have said it was a gut problem, when that was actually just the result of the real problem.
Equally, I had a hamster operated on with suspected uterine inflammation. Once she was opened up, a tumour of the spleen came to light. Again, there would have been no obvious reason to suspect that and without opening the animal up, we would never have known.
And I also had a cockatiel that died suddenly with absolutely no warning signs. The cause was found in a pm: kidney failure.
So unless a pm is done on each doe that dies, I don't believe that one can say with confidence that it was NOT uterine cancer.
That however doesn't mean that the high incidence figures for uterine cancer are beyond doubt. I just want to say that without a pm one can rarely be 100% sure what the cause of death was.
Vera
Equally, I had a hamster operated on with suspected uterine inflammation. Once she was opened up, a tumour of the spleen came to light. Again, there would have been no obvious reason to suspect that and without opening the animal up, we would never have known.
And I also had a cockatiel that died suddenly with absolutely no warning signs. The cause was found in a pm: kidney failure.
So unless a pm is done on each doe that dies, I don't believe that one can say with confidence that it was NOT uterine cancer.
That however doesn't mean that the high incidence figures for uterine cancer are beyond doubt. I just want to say that without a pm one can rarely be 100% sure what the cause of death was.
Vera
