Uterine Cancer

[Thumps]

Probably quite a silly question but as you know I ask anyway :lol:
Is it only females who have been left unspayed and not breed from that are susceptible to uterine cancer or can breeding females get it too?

Angela

[Lazylops]

HI Thumps,
an entire doe can suffer from a number of uterine disorders, even if they are not used for breeding, which includes Uterine adenocarcinoma.

[Thumps]

Thanks Annie, do you know whether an entire doe used for breeding is still likely to get cancer? Or more to the point does anyone know why female rabbits are so suseptible to uterine problems? Just out of curiousity.

Angela

[anon101]

I once had a conversation with a breeder about this subject.

Her beleief was doe's that are being bred from dont get Uterine Cancer as much as doe's that arent being bred from.

Something to do with the hormone's a Pregnant doe produce's that a non Pregnant doe dosent.

I'm not sure what I think of this but she had never lost a doe to Uterine Cancer.

She also said that the stats we have on Uterine Cancer (that 80-90% of doe's will get it) mainly come from Lab Rabbit's, where all manner of horrid test's have been done on them. So maybe these stats about Uterine Cancer are not total accurate?

The way satistic's are collected and presented can be manipulated to reflect different points of view.

Breeding your doe too prevent Uterine Cancer is not a valid reason in my eye's. The best thing you can do for your doe is take her to the Vet's and get her spayed when old enough (normaly six months) This will prevent unwanted Rabbit's and cut out any risk of Uterine Cancer.

Louise

[Pendragon]

I have to say the whole issue of uterine cancer is something very new to me!

Along with an awful lot else which wasn't known about rabbit health when I first bred rabbits about 30 years ago, it didn't appear to be there....

I owned many girls, most were bred from, but I cannot say I ever lost one from this.... most of my girls went into their 3rd and 4th years in good health, if not longer. Poshpwas was 6 when she died of natural causes.... and I could name a few others. The only problem I had was when our much-loved pet Honey Bunny aged 7, was accidentally mated by Angus - a sooty-fawn English Lop cross - and she died from haemorrhage during the birth. The vet could not save her.

When I stopped breeding in 1983 I gave my Tri-colour Dutch - a buck and two does - to my friend Marion. She bred a few litters on, and eventually her last Tris were a pair of does - sisters - never bred from, who died aged 9, of old age.

I have heard of many other female rabbits, usually Dutch I have to admit, that have gone on to 10 or even 12, without any health problems at all!

I don't mean to disrespect any research that has been done, but knowing all this, you can't blame me for wondering!!! :)

[Tamsin]

I've heard several cases where rescues have spayed older does and found uterine cancer, so the rabbits had a lucky escape.

Dutches do seem to live a long time! 3/4 years isn't what I would consider old for a bunny in general though I think the average is more 5-7 years.

What we do know is that uterine cancer is the commonest cancer of rabbits and is the end point of a gradual process becoming much more common with increasing age. The classic study (Greene, 1958) which is so widely quoted in houserabbit circles showed 4% of does had uterine cancer age 2-3 years of age, rising to 80% at 5-6 years. It doesn't make any difference whether the doe has been bred from or not (Adams, 1962) or what breed she is.

Problem in breeding does can be a sign of uterine cancer developing:

Breeding does who develop uterine cancer invariably have a history of reproductive disturbance in the 6-10 months prior to the tumour becoming detectable by palpation. Typical problems are reduced litter size, stillborn litters, and does deserting their litters. Dystocia (difficulty kindling), litter retention in utero, abdominal pregnancy and fetal resorption are also more likely when tumours are developing.

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/uterine.htm

Hope that helps,
Tamsin

[rngpwelfare]

I can say that it is defeinatly a problem in does in the age bracket of 4.5years plus.
This year has been my worst we have had three does already that on speying were found with sizable lumps all of the said does were in this age bracket and all have been caught early enough to have recovered.

When I first started the rescue I took on a five year old to keep as my own.
She went to be spayed an was found to be full of tummors. We brought her home and were told that she would need regular checks to make sure that it hadn't spread to her lungs. Also that she would be lucky to live another 6 months.
She managed 10 months and had to be pts just before christmas. A lovely rabbit who didn't deserve to lose her life so quickley.

I would always have a doe neutered from now on. As for does that have been breed from. I don't know but it would be interesting to find out.

[Thumps]

Thank you for the replies. My curisousity stems from now having Jessica, a 3 year old Dutch. She had a tumour removed a month ago, it was almost the same weight as her, poor girl. She's all recovered now though and a very happy girl. Her previous owner for whatever reasons didn't notice her strange shaped and hard tummy for quite a while. He only noticed as she couldn't lie down properly. So a word of warning unless you plan to seriously breed always always get your girls done as soon as you can. I hate to think how many females are left to suffer with this.

Angela

[AmberUK]

I wanted to start up this thread again I have just spoken to a breeder with a private rescue who also is against neutering just on the chance that cancer might happen. And he gives only lost one in x years etc etc. The thing is that all items I have read on the net seem to not have anything to back them up and when they do its papers so old they are impossible to get hold of. Does anyone have any upto date info or any personal experince ie going in for neutering and there is a lump there? I am very very nervous about putting in an animal for an op after what happened last time. But the first stage of bonding last night went so well, I am very torn.

[Tamsin]

The study done in 1958 is the one the 80% figure comes from:

Ann NY Acad. Sci. 75:535-542 Green, 1958.

This is perhaps the best article, and probably where everyone gets the often quoted 80% figure. Greene monitored a colony of rabbits over a long period of time (8-10 years). All rabbits dying from whatever causes were necropsied. 16.7% of 849 rabbits were found to have uterine adenocarcinoma. The average age of the colony was greater than 4 years, which is important, because most lab rabbits are under 24 months of age. The tumor incidence in Greene's colony was very closely linked to age. In rabbits dying between 2 and 3 years of age the incidence of cancer was 4.2%. In rabbits 5-6 years of age the incidence is 79.1% (the mythical 80%). Note: these rabbits did not necessarily DIE from the cancer, but there were tumors after their death.

We don't know what the different causes of death were, but they are listed as "natural". The incidence of cancer in males and females is about the same in rabbits under two years of age, after that, the incidence in females dramatically increases over the males, primarily due to uterine cancer.

We found the article in _TBLR_ because it was referenced in a journal that claimed that the incidence of cancer was somewhere between 1 and 4% in rabbits. That low figure was compiled from laboratory rabbits, most under 2 years of age. So, that figure agrees very well with Greene's findings. When one starts looking at older rabbits the data drastically changes. Most of the veterinarians we've talked with seem to believe that this is very genetically controlled. _TBLR_ even lists breeds that are not susceptible to uterine cancer. While 80% may not be a figure for all rabbits, it was for that colony. Other colonies have had >50% incidence of cancer.

Ref: http://www.rabbit.org/care/bibliography.html

There was also a survety done in 1998 with found:

rabbits over age 2 diagnosed with cancer = 31% (37 out of 120)
rabbits over age 4 diagnosed with cancer = 43% (22 out of 51)
rabbits over age 6 diagnosed with cancer = 50% (11 out of 22)

Ref: http://home.earthlink.net/~suzys/results.html

I'm not sure the second one would count as a random sample? I think there is definately an indication that the chances or uterine cancer increase in older rabbits.

Perhaps we could survey rescue centres that routinely spay does and find out the incidence of cancer found. The trouble is ages aren't always known.

Tam

[LurcherGirl]

I have got an entire female doe, now 5 1/2 years old. She was never bred from, but for personal reasons (long story) I had never had her neutered. However, for the last two years or so, she has had regular ultra sound scans to detect any cancer as soon as possible. Up to now, they have always come back clear! (Thank god).




I owned many girls, most were bred from, but I cannot say I ever lost one from this....

How do you know this? Have all your rabbits had post mortems when they died?

most of my girls went into their 3rd and 4th years in good health, if not longer.


I agree with Tamsin, that a three or four year old rabbit is not old yet... My oldest pair is six and 5 1/2 years old now and although I consider them to be senior rabbits, I don't consider them really old yet ... And they are larger sized lops which are meant to have shorter life spans...

Vera

[Adele]

Hi there, this is an interesting thread, and I think the individual has to make up their own mind what is best for their individual rabbit.

I agree that the statistics look fairly scary and may make folk feel compelled to have their Does spayed.
However, based on my own experience with around 200 to 300 Does, most of whom have not been spayed, we have only lost one Doe to Uterine Cancer, and three to stomach Cancer.
I believe that Stomach Cancer has about the same incident rate as Uterine Cancer, and you cannot take much preventative action for this, just insure that the rabbits diet is well balanced and high in fibre.
We have not had Post mortems carried out on the Does, as 90% of the Deaths were through obvious causes, ie. organ failure through old age etc.
I have quite a lot of Associates who have lost young, fit Does through or after surgery for spaying, and the risk is that one in twelve (approx from what I can remember from reading a statistic somewhere bu this may be inaccurate :? )will have serious post op. after affects or sadly die of secondary problems like infection.

My philosophy is this: We have a naturalistic approach with the rabbits, that is, giving regularly health checks, feeling around the abdomen for any bloating or discomfort, and watching general behaviour.
If there is a problem brewing we take immediately action and have full tests at the Vets.
As in Humans, the risk of uterine Cancer increase with age, but if a Doe gets Cancer at 5 plus this is around the average life expectancy, and at least rabbits who do develop this dreadful illness do not have to suffer if action is taken quickly.
I feel that weighing up the risk of invasive surgery with the risk of a Doe getting Cancer in later life, I tend to opt for the non surgical route.

This is just my own philosophy, and it has developed from seeing and hearing about quite a lot of Does dying after spaying, and only a very few dying of Uterine Cancer.
Our Does are typically over 5, never had litters and all healthy, and free of problems.
I think Louise is correct in that tests undertaken on Lab. bunnies is not a real gauge of what happens in a more natural environment, stress can cause cancer too ( I believe) and Lab bunnies may experience more stress than usual.

I think when you have only one or two rabbits you perhaps tend to have a different general philosophy on rabbit care, whereas those of us with multiple rabbits and having observed a large number of rabbits than the norm over the years, may persent a completely new slant on things.
Facts and figures are all very well, but hands on experience should count a little too.
I have a different philosophy on castrating Bucks, but that is due to the fact I feel surgery is less invasive.

[AmberUK]

I have been trying to find out if there is any general advice that vets are running off? Ie if there are any offical/semi offical lines that the vets are taking.

I think lab animal experiments are hard to use as the situation they are in is not ideal, they are not treated/fed well (IMHO) and probably not really treated an an animal that might live as old as 10.

The other question is are some animals dying and we think its natural causes but its something else?

I have to say that the pull through rate of the operation does scare me. I have an uneutered bunnie that I have the choice to try out the home bonding situation next week. But I am not sure I am happy with neutering her I think as the rescuer is against it. If something happened I would just feel so bad, I know I would normally but its like going against someones wishes. Erm I think I am not explaining that well but I kinda think you know what I mean.

[Adele]

[quote="AmberUK"]I have been trying to find out if there is any general advice that vets are running off? Ie if there are any offical/semi offical lines that the vets are taking.
/quote]

I think Vets recommend Spaying based upon the statistics available, however, having read some of the literature provided, although I agree with what the Vets say, I do not think enough is said about the risks of surgery.
I have had many Clients annoyed at finding out ALL the facts of the risks of surgery post Op, but these details were not made readily available at the time.
I guess 1) Unless you ask the Vet directly and they are prepared to research the other side of things to give you a really balanced perspective, they will only present the aspects that SUPPORT spaying.

2) Due to so many rabbits being in Rescues and needing rehoming, I kinda feel that perhaps views are swayed by other issues, such as ensuring that as few rabbits as possible can breed.

In conclusion, some Vets may promote spaying for ethical issues as well as for the benefits of dramatically cutting the Cancer risk.

The trouble is, bunnies tend to succumb to gut problems more than anything else, so I am more concerned about that than the spaying issue.

A lot of Does come through surgery absolutely fine though, and it does have its benefits, but it seems drastic action to take INCASE Cancer arises, this is just my own view. After all, the Uks Doctors do not advocate this cause of action for all us young females incase we get uterine Cancer, oh gawd, the NHS would have permanent bed blocking if that was the case :roll: :lol:
I do not wish to put folk off from having their Doe spayed if that is what they feel comfortable with, I do think however that you need to very carefully weigh up all the pros and cons properly before you decide to go ahead. :D

[Tamsin]

I think another thing to consider when deciding is the behaviour benefits. Unspayed does may have false pregnacies and maybe 'grumpy' or agressive when you invade their hutch.

There are quite a lot of female rabbits handed in to rescues because of behaviour problems.

Tam

[beck]

This has made interesting reading, is there any info on the risks involved with spaying for different breeds?

Blueberry can be spayed soon and I have to say I have been worrying about it more the closer it gets, she is leaving afew currents around but thats no big deal and she doesn't have any behaviour issues.

The vets I use recommend spaying but how much research they've done or their success rate I don't know.

Is spaying essential for bonding?

[Tamsin]

I would think your vets should be able to give you details of their success rate.

Tam

[AmberUK]

But are animals coming into the rescues because people are not looking after them correctly? How many people dump a bunnie at the end of the garden and expect it to love them? Then saying they are in the rescues because of behaviour problems is just a pile of toss (not saying you talk tosh Tamsin just that some people do). Its getting the facts and the info to not effect each other that is difficult.

On operation success rates. Is the success rate of rabbits coming out of sugury ok the same for all ops? I know that some ops like cancer and dental problems has its own effect on success because the animal comes in after being sick/weak or having problems eating. But if you only take the rate of death due to surgery problems what sucess rates are there?

[Bob]

I had a breeding doe that was retired and rehomed. She sadly did not enjoy her new home for very long but died of Uterine Cancer.

When considering statistics please also remember that most animals and certainly rabbits that die are usually not seen by a vet lone alone have had a PM conducted to find out what actually is wrong - sorry if that info has been posted already - in a hurry :-)

[LurcherGirl]

I would also like to point out again, that unless a post mortem is done on an animal, it cannot be said for sure what the rabbit died of! I had one rabbit die without obvious cause within 36 hours after the first symptom (GI stasis). A pm revealed that it was acute liver inflammation. Without pm we just would have said it was a gut problem, when that was actually just the result of the real problem.
Equally, I had a hamster operated on with suspected uterine inflammation. Once she was opened up, a tumour of the spleen came to light. Again, there would have been no obvious reason to suspect that and without opening the animal up, we would never have known.
And I also had a cockatiel that died suddenly with absolutely no warning signs. The cause was found in a pm: kidney failure.

So unless a pm is done on each doe that dies, I don't believe that one can say with confidence that it was NOT uterine cancer.

That however doesn't mean that the high incidence figures for uterine cancer are beyond doubt. I just want to say that without a pm one can rarely be 100% sure what the cause of death was.

Vera

[Bob]

I would also like to point out again, that unless a post mortem is done on an animal, it cannot be said for sure what the rabbit died of! .....
So unless a pm is done on each doe that dies, I don't believe that one can say with confidence that it was NOT uterine cancer.

Vera

Could not agree more and very well said. In this case a PM was done.

[AmberUK]

Lurchergirl this is exactly what I am trying to work out. Getting beyond the presumptions and passed on info to what the actual facts and figures for real pets living in real conditions.

Of course as someone whose only on bunnie number two its going to take me a long long time to get enough info to be able to draw my own conclusions. But out there some people have delt with enough bunnies to be able to see a trend. But then unless the info is only a best guess without a PM I guess realistic data is hard to get hold of.

[bunnytales]

I think when you have only one or two rabbits you perhaps tend to have a different general philosophy on rabbit care, whereas those of us with multiple rabbits and having observed a large number of rabbits than the norm over the years, may persent a completely new slant on things.
Facts and figures are all very well, but hands on experience should count a little too.
I have a different philosophy on castrating Bucks, but that is due to the fact I feel surgery is less invasive.

This is an interesting thread and I think the above quote is very apt to folks like me that just keep two cherished pet bunnies and children purchasing first time bunnies. I personally feel its completely different for more specialist bunny keepers (Adele -hope you don't mind me calling you one of those :wink: ) who will have a responsible and experienced attitude, and both Adele and the many others on this Forum have worked hard over many years to gain that valued experience which heaven knows has helped me on more than one ocassion :roll:

For me as a relative bunny novice (but I am learning folks) the problem area is that generally (taking the Spay Op statistics aside for a mo) folks go into the Petstore looking for a cuddly loving bun - In a few months time the female or male hormones kick in which turns the bunn into a typical adolescent - Our Veterinary practice (as well as for profit I'm sure) is trying to promote spaying to help owners and the bunnies in the hope that by having them spayed not only will it ensure that accidents do not happen and therefore apply spaying as bunny population control. Also when the bunny is spayed the hormones calm down, the bunny will be more easily litter trained and just perhaps the owners may then decide they can live with their calmed down bunny rather than give it up to a Rescue or worse.

As part of the Veterinary Leaflet which I do quarterly we recently featured spaying and the Vets were very open about the techniques used, how long the op takes, recovery times and what problems to look for - but I think this only came about as a result of the Leaflet being produced - Shame this couldn't be rolled out with other Vet Practices to help bunny owners :!:

So I can see both sides of the coin really - if folks buy bunnies as a pair and the male is Spayed you have the same population control but inexperienced bunny parents though may still have a fiesty female to contend with and we all know that vast majority of folks will want an instant cuddly adoring bunny who loves them loads and never gets PMT. I fear the vast majority of bunny purchases will be continue to be on impulse and without the prior education necessary to make an informed decision.

[Adele]

I agree that spaying can help behavioural problems in many Does, and if more were spayed it is arguable that less would arrive at Rescues as grumpy Does :lol: that the owners are unable to handle.
Conversely, we have found through much discussion that spaying does not help all Does with behaviour and litter training etc.

If you opt for the naturalistic approach as we do, we find that the behavioural issues can be greatly improved with using calming essential oils, herbs such as lavender which reduces womb inflammation and pain during the Does cycle, gentle massage and relaxing music(!) has great soothing effect.
The decision to spay or not to spay may also depends upon the rabbits owners experience to be able to train rabbits with behavioural problems, and the time factor, as most people are out at work all day, whereas I spend all day with the rabbits so have time to try different things.

I do not endorse spaying or not spaying as such, just like to debate the full picture.
I think it is prudent to at least shop around for a good Vet who is experienced specifically with spaying bunnies, as this gives you opportunity to ask any burning questions, and be reassured that your bunny is in the best hands.

[LurcherGirl]

Conversely, we have found through much discussion that spaying does not help all does with behaviour and litter training etc.

Totally agree - I have a male rabbit. He is four and a half now. He was always very moody. On the one hand he is the cuddliest bunny I have ever had (I am on bunny number 8 now) and adores people, on the other hand he is the only one that bites from time to time (I am talking every few months here - so it is very rare). I am not sure however whether there is a medical reason behind this... but castration has certainly not helped.

On the other hand I have a female that is not spayed, she has never bitten me, never been grumpy, and although she is reserved, with age got quite a bit cuddlier. She was never problem to handle either.
Equally, when I got Charlie at one year old, unneutered, she was very friendly too, never grumpy at all.

So just like neutering is sometimes not the answer to behavioural problems, it doesn't mean either that all entire bunnies are little horrors... :)

Vera

[Bob]

These may help or confuse :-) Use Jeeves or Google and you will get presented with lots of information, experience, opinions and views but few based on actual scientific surveys.

I geuss each has to read what they can and then make thier mind up based upon what they have read and what they feel that is best for thier/your Buns

Best of luck.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/UC.html
http://www.lbah.com/Rabbits/rabbit_spay.htm
http://www.uvm.edu/~jdion/pets/spay.txt
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/Faculty/Dana/spay.html

[Adele]

[quote

So just like neutering is sometimes not the answer to behavioural problems, it doesn't mean either that all entire bunnies are little horrors... :)

Vera
I am glad you said that point Vera, as we also have some lovely (unspayed) gentle Does, that are very affectionate and do not have PMT :lol:
It is true that every rabbit is an individual and unique, and you have to make the best decision for your own rabbit, taking all the different factors into account.

Mind you, we do have the grumpiest of unspayed Does here too, despite all out alternative methods, so I may opt to have one spayed as a last resort, as her quality of life is not great being driven by her hormones :?

Thank you for posting those Links Bob :thumb:

[Bertie]

I have four does, three are spayed. Monopoly is still growing and isn't yet showing any signs of puberty, so I'm leaving her be. My males are both castrated, so there's no real hurry. Only part of my reason for spaying the girls is the health risk, the rest was behaviour. They're all house buns and when the hormones kicked in they became evil little monsters. They were spraying all over everything, fighting and aggressive and smelly and mean. It's easy to see why so many can end up in rescues due to 'behaviour' problems.

After spaying, Cassidy still has an attitude problem, but at least she doesn't squirt wee at me everytime she sees me. I know it's an invasive operation, and it carries risk and it's an arogant decision to make on behalf of another living creature. But when the animal's life depends on me and my charity, and when her unspayed behaviour makes her impossible to live with then I think it's a reasonable choice to make, irrespective of the health issues. I would never give up a rabbit because of its behaviour, but I think it's reasonable to do as much as I can to calm them down.

Monopoly is very slow to mature, and I can see her being one of those does that may never develop a bad attitude (touch wood), but I will still get her spayed because at some point in the future it's entirely possible that an un-neutered male might join our bunny family and it just makes life easier if all the bunnies are sorted out well in advance.

I feel horrible putting them through what is essentially unnecessary surgery, and I worry constantly until they're home with me and safe, but for my situation it's the only practical solution.

[nicolar]

Hi

I am new here and have been reading this thread with interest. I have two unspayed does who are real sweetie pies, as Vera said not all unspayed does are nightmares!!

My little grey bundle of fluff (Amy) is just over a year old and so lovely, i got her at about 5/6 months of age - an 'unwanted' birthday pressie (Uni students as well - should know better!). My oldest (Pip) is 5 and has just had an op last week - abcess on her foot.
I am worried about uterine cancer too but am more worried about putting them through an 'unnecesary' op. Her op last week had to be done and I was an anxious Mum all last Monday but I have brill vets so really no need to worry :D .

I guess it is up to the individual as to whether they spay or not, we routinely spay all our rabbits at the rescue I work at. But on the subject of aggressive bunnies we had one in who was spayed but was still a nightmare! Loveable of course, but bruised legs ensued after going in with her! Luckily we found her a lovely home who were willing to put up with her being 'temperamental'! :wink:

This forum is brill, will be reading with interest.

Nicola

[Bob]

Hi

I am new here and have been reading this thread with interest. I have two unspayed does who are real sweetie pies, as Vera said not all unspayed does are nightmares!!

My little grey bundle of fluff (Amy) is just over a year old and so lovely, i got her at about 5/6 months of age - an 'unwanted' birthday pressie (Uni students as well - should know better!). My oldest (Pip) is 5 and has just had an op last week - abcess on her foot.
I am worried about uterine cancer too but am more worried about putting them through an 'unnecesary' op. Her op last week had to be done and I was an anxious Mum all last Monday but I have brill vets so really no need to worry :D .

I guess it is up to the individual as to whether they spay or not, we routinely spay all our rabbits at the rescue I work at. But on the subject of aggressive bunnies we had one in who was spayed but was still a nightmare! Loveable of course, but bruised legs ensued after going in with her! Luckily we found her a lovely home who were willing to put up with her being 'temperamental'! :wink:

This forum is brill, will be reading with interest.

Nicola

Welcome Nicola :-) This list is great because it allows differing opinions to be aired. this topic is a classic where really thier is no single answer! It really is down to the owner to make an informed judgement on what to do. How informed is that owner - well another debate!

I was justa little confused when you said...

"I am worried about uterine cancer too but am more worried about putting them through an 'unnecesary' op. Her op last week had to be done and I was an anxious Mum all last Monday but I have brill vets so really no need to worry :D ."

Then went on to say...

"I guess it is up to the individual as to whether they spay or not, we routinely spay all our rabbits at the rescue I work at."

Those conflicting statements really do raise more questions than answers for me.

I have probably read your post wrong or it has come across badly but something in those comments as they stand does not add up!!

[nicolar]

Hiya

Sorry if that was confusing!! Just meant that I personally am not keen on anaesthetics so am not having my rabbits spayed but obv it is up to each individual based on experience etc. Just adding that I work in a rescue and all ours are spayed with no problems. I'm prob just paranoid about ops cos I have had a bad experience!

Hope that clears it up, interesting debate about spaying/cancer, as you said no right answer, just gotta do what we think is right for our own animals. And how well informed everybody is - def more info needed out there!

I'm just about to take on a foster bunny who has cancer, bless her.

Nicola