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intermittent inappetence and depression

Griffski

Warren Scout
Hi- am posting in case anyone recognises this scenario. I have an 18 month old rescue lop bunny who every few months goes off his food but recovers within 24 hours after vet intervention (gut motility stimulant injection). Unusually, in past week he has had 3 episodes - the first seemed mild and i monitored him and he bounced back within hours. The next morning he was binkying in garden and came running to me for food but then wouldn;t eat and within minutes was sitting hunched up and withdrawn in the hutch, ignoring his bunny sidekick. He was back to normal later that day after vet intervention but last night, same scenario occurred... half an hour before lockdown he was 100% ok in garden eating grass then when i went to shut them in for the night he was in withdrawn mode and refused his treats and pellets. By middle of the night he was accepting pellets and this morning he was running about outside on great form and eating everything in sight. They have been on vet advised diet past few weeks - fewer pellets tapered down over time and veg reduced to leafy greens - unlimited hay, couple of bowls of readigrass, free access to grass when they're out (few hours per day) and couple of apple treats at lockdown. The only other change to his diet has been the introduction of horse hay (which they prefer to commercial bunny hay though both are still provided). He had a dental 3 weeks ago. He will occasionally leave caecotrophs in hutch .. even since the 'diet'. Any ideas what could be causing him discomfort quite suddenly ? Anything you'd recommend i do to stop this happening or is he just going to be a bunny with persistent gut issues? Sometimes he eats like he can't get food into him fast enough (compulsively/obsessively) - my other bunny loves food but is not like this - might he just have gut ache post overeating compounded by recently increased hay/grass intake ? I'm assuming digestion-related issue given his past history but might he have intermittent pain elsewhere that might present like this ? thanks.
 
Hi- am posting in case anyone recognises this scenario. I have an 18 month old rescue lop bunny who every few months goes off his food but recovers within 24 hours after vet intervention (gut motility stimulant injection). Unusually, in past week he has had 3 episodes - the first seemed mild and i monitored him and he bounced back within hours. The next morning he was binkying in garden and came running to me for food but then wouldn;t eat and within minutes was sitting hunched up and withdrawn in the hutch, ignoring his bunny sidekick. He was back to normal later that day after vet intervention but last night, same scenario occurred... half an hour before lockdown he was 100% ok in garden eating grass then when i went to shut them in for the night he was in withdrawn mode and refused his treats and pellets. By middle of the night he was accepting pellets and this morning he was running about outside on great form and eating everything in sight. They have been on vet advised diet past few weeks - fewer pellets tapered down over time and veg reduced to leafy greens - unlimited hay, couple of bowls of readigrass, free access to grass when they're out (few hours per day) and couple of apple treats at lockdown. The only other change to his diet has been the introduction of horse hay (which they prefer to commercial bunny hay though both are still provided). He had a dental 3 weeks ago. He will occasionally leave caecotrophs in hutch .. even since the 'diet'. Any ideas what could be causing him discomfort quite suddenly ? Anything you'd recommend i do to stop this happening or is he just going to be a bunny with persistent gut issues? Sometimes he eats like he can't get food into him fast enough (compulsively/obsessively) - my other bunny loves food but is not like this - might he just have gut ache post overeating compounded by recently increased hay/grass intake ? I'm assuming digestion-related issue given his past history but might he have intermittent pain elsewhere that might present like this ? thanks.

Does your Rabbit have a good water intake and have you ever noticed any sludgy wee ?

What is his fecal output like , both on a 'normal' day to day basis and also just prior to an episode of acute pain ?

Has he always had Readigrass ? I have known some Rabbits who cannot tolerate too much of it. It has a much higher protein content than most hays.

What pellets are you feeding and how much now ?

Sorry for all the questions !!
 
Thanks for the response Jack's Jane .. no probs re questions :)
He has access to water at all times - they drink half a bowl a day between them (it gets changed daily). I've never noticed any strange wee but i wouldn;t necessarily do so as the hay in their litter tray would hide it - by chance he missed his litter tray yesterday (before the latest episode) and i happened to see him - certainly seemed a decent amount and nothing sludgy about it.
I haven't noticed anything untoward recently re his solid output - during the first recent episode his gut was definitely active as he'd retreated to the bed area and i could see he was producing pellets.
They've had readigrass since April - they had it on an unlimited basis for many months (he has teeth issues and it was great to see him eat something other than pellets - he wasn't much of a hay eater then) - but i cut it down recently to try to encourage more hay feeding (the horse hay has been a big win in that respect - they both love it).
They're fed burgess with mint pellets - they were on 30g each per day (half the recommended dose according to the packet ) but were gaining weight on that amount so they're now on 10g per day each (fed as treats through day with most fed at lockdown).
 
Thanks for the response Jack's Jane .. no probs re questions :)
He has access to water at all times - they drink half a bowl a day between them (it gets changed daily). I've never noticed any strange wee but i wouldn;t necessarily do so as the hay in their litter tray would hide it - by chance he missed his litter tray yesterday (before the latest episode) and i happened to see him - certainly seemed a decent amount and nothing sludgy about it.
I haven't noticed anything untoward recently re his solid output - during the first recent episode his gut was definitely active as he'd retreated to the bed area and i could see he was producing pellets.
They've had readigrass since April - they had it on an unlimited basis for many months (he has teeth issues and it was great to see him eat something other than pellets - he wasn't much of a hay eater then) - but i cut it down recently to try to encourage more hay feeding (the horse hay has been a big win in that respect - they both love it).
They're fed burgess with mint pellets - they were on 30g each per day (half the recommended dose according to the packet ) but were gaining weight on that amount so they're now on 10g per day each (fed as treats through day with most fed at lockdown).

sorry forgot re the output question that when he has these episodes he often produces soft output .. mild diarrhoea .. nothing major but a departure from the norm and a concern. he may have done so this time at low level - sometimes it's difficult to distinguish from an occasional squashed caecotroph deposit which he generates every couple of days whether he's well or sick.
 
Hmmmmmm, does he ever produce a big splat of soft poo or fecal poos that are more rugby ball shaped than round ? And an odd question, but what colour is he ?
 
hi jack's jane - he's the brindle/agouti in pics below. i have no info re his heritage - think the sspca just said crossbreed. his fecal pellets are always round but the caecotroph deposits he leave are more like you describe - i've never seen caecotroph deposits from my other bunny so don;t know if that's the norm or not re shape. yes re the occasional splat - he definitely seems to have some underlying digestive issues regardless of what's causing his episodes of discomfort (which now i know can resolve within hours may be more frequent than i describe as i may miss some during work days).
 
hi jack's jane - he's the brindle/agouti in pics below. i have no info re his heritage - think the sspca just said crossbreed. his fecal pellets are always round but the caecotroph deposits he leave are more like you describe - i've never seen caecotroph deposits from my other bunny so don;t know if that's the norm or not re shape. yes re the occasional splat - he definitely seems to have some underlying digestive issues regardless of what's causing his episodes of discomfort (which now i know can resolve within hours may be more frequent than i describe as i may miss some during work days).

I am wondering if he may have some issues with the motility of his cecum. Has the Vet ever mentioned this ?

As for what various poops look like, take a look on here (maybe not whilst eating your lunch though !!)

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/drop/Drp_en.htm
 
hi jack's jane - just found a really helpful forum post on bunny output by thumps on the forum - i would say he falls into the category of the occasional unformed caecals, with occasional furball fecal pellets but none of the more serious outcomes. The worst case he had of unformed caecals was more like diarrhoea and he was seen by the vet that time - usual gut motility stimulant applied. Whatever he has has never become scary (although of course i am always worried at the time) - he has laways had fast recovery - his behaviour modifying before his appetite returns.
 
hi jack's jane - just found a really helpful forum post on bunny output by thumps on the forum - i would say he falls into the category of the occasional unformed caecals, with occasional furball fecal pellets but none of the more serious outcomes. The worst case he had of unformed caecals was more like diarrhoea and he was seen by the vet that time - usual gut motility stimulant applied. Whatever he has has never become scary (although of course i am always worried at the time) - he has laways had fast recovery - his behaviour modifying before his appetite returns.

If he has another episode I would want the Vet to run some diagnostics I think, has this been suggested ?
 
hi jane - this has been such a helpful discussion - thanks so much for your input - i had a look at the post you recommended and also found that useful. the vet has never mentioned cecum motility specifically although she has noted his gut motility was compromised when she's examined him. I had him for around 5 months before the first episode (when he was still indoors) and he had no unformed cecals until he was an outdoors bunny. I;m wondering why the recent increase in episodes .. if anything his diet should be improved with the greater skew to hay .. might he be eating something in the garden that's triggering the episodes? i am really careful what i feed him in case it sets him off so he has been on a fairly consistent diet throughout (with the addition of grass when moved outdoors in may).
 
Hi- am posting in case anyone recognises this scenario. I have an 18 month old rescue lop bunny who every few months goes off his food but recovers within 24 hours after vet intervention (gut motility stimulant injection). Unusually, in past week he has had 3 episodes - the first seemed mild and i monitored him and he bounced back within hours. The next morning he was binkying in garden and came running to me for food but then wouldn;t eat and within minutes was sitting hunched up and withdrawn in the hutch, ignoring his bunny sidekick. He was back to normal later that day after vet intervention but last night, same scenario occurred... half an hour before lockdown he was 100% ok in garden eating grass then when i went to shut them in for the night he was in withdrawn mode and refused his treats and pellets. By middle of the night he was accepting pellets and this morning he was running about outside on great form and eating everything in sight. They have been on vet advised diet past few weeks - fewer pellets tapered down over time and veg reduced to leafy greens - unlimited hay, couple of bowls of readigrass, free access to grass when they're out (few hours per day) and couple of apple treats at lockdown. The only other change to his diet has been the introduction of horse hay (which they prefer to commercial bunny hay though both are still provided). He had a dental 3 weeks ago. He will occasionally leave caecotrophs in hutch .. even since the 'diet'. Any ideas what could be causing him discomfort quite suddenly ? Anything you'd recommend i do to stop this happening or is he just going to be a bunny with persistent gut issues? Sometimes he eats like he can't get food into him fast enough (compulsively/obsessively) - my other bunny loves food but is not like this - might he just have gut ache post overeating compounded by recently increased hay/grass intake ? I'm assuming digestion-related issue given his past history but might he have intermittent pain elsewhere that might present like this ? thanks.

Hi there and sorry to hear about these recurrent issues with your bunny.

Has he had his teeth checked? I know he had a dental just recently, but sometimes it's not always the solution we're looking for and teeth can sometimes still be an issue. Is he used to having regular dentals and what state did the vet say his teeth were in? (i.e. why were they not wearing down). I only mention this as you describe him as running to you for food but then not eating, and this is what dental buns do (alongside others of course :))

You mention thumps, and certainly she has a lot of experience and it may well be worth PMing her for her input?

The other thing to consider would be megacolon (also called cow-pile syndrome) .. which I think you have touched on:

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Mega/mega_en.htm


http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Differential/mega_differential.htm

The other thing I would consider is asking your vet for a blood profile, as it may shed some light on liver and kidney function, which could be relevant.

Good luck xx
 
hi jane - this has been such a helpful discussion - thanks so much for your input - i had a look at the post you recommended and also found that useful. the vet has never mentioned cecum motility specifically although she has noted his gut motility was compromised when she's examined him. I had him for around 5 months before the first episode (when he was still indoors) and he had no unformed cecals until he was an outdoors bunny. I;m wondering why the recent increase in episodes .. if anything his diet should be improved with the greater skew to hay .. might he be eating something in the garden that's triggering the episodes? i am really careful what i feed him in case it sets him off so he has been on a fairly consistent diet throughout (with the addition of grass when moved outdoors in may).

I dont feel as though I've been much help ! I think the best way forward would be to request some diagnostics, as I mentioned in a previous post. There are a few possible things that may be going on, but without more evidence (from diagnostics) it is just going to be guess work/speculation.

I'd keep a diary of his 'episodes', note the time of day they occur, what he had eaten just prior to the episode etc.
 
hi jack's jane - just found a really helpful forum post on bunny output by thumps on the forum - i would say he falls into the category of the occasional unformed caecals, with occasional furball fecal pellets but none of the more serious outcomes. The worst case he had of unformed caecals was more like diarrhoea and he was seen by the vet that time - usual gut motility stimulant applied. Whatever he has has never become scary (although of course i am always worried at the time) - he has laways had fast recovery - his behaviour modifying before his appetite returns.

Just to add that thumps has been spotted around the Forum this morning :D

You could certainly catch her, or write a message online here for her to pick up maybe?
 
Hi - nothing has been suggested re diagnostics but if this is becoming a chronic issue for him then a fuller workup sounds like a wise plan and I'll raise that with the vet if i have to take him in again. With your direction have researched cecal motility and I think i'll try him on hay, grass, restricted readigrass and pellets for a week (nothing else) and see if that helps. If that works then i have a baseline from which to check other foods. will report back in a week in case this helps anyone else.
thanks again :)
 
Hi - nothing has been suggested re diagnostics but if this is becoming a chronic issue for him then a fuller workup sounds like a wise plan and I'll raise that with the vet if i have to take him in again. With your direction have researched cecal motility and I think i'll try him on hay, grass, restricted readigrass and pellets for a week (nothing else) and see if that helps. If that works then i have a baseline from which to check other foods. will report back in a week in case this helps anyone else.
thanks again :)

I have had a couple of Rabbits who had problems with their cecum. So I was thrown onto a rather drastic learning curve about it all.
 
Thanks mightymax :) his dental was 3 weeks ago and was his first - he had spurs on back teeth, one side worse than the other. He hadn't presented with any feeding issues at that time but was dropping cecals (for a while before) but there's been no change in that respect post dental. When he's not in 'withdrawn mode' he eats like a lion - i have googled prader-wili syndrome in case bunnies get it- seriously it is like he can't eat fast enough :) The links were great - thanks - i see what jack's jane was getting at re megacolon re coat colour - luckily it's not my white bunny (who is - touchwood- bullet proof in terms of health :)). - and useful to know what tests to discuss with vet. I'll keep an eye on him and restrict his diet meantime .. on plus side it is really easy for me to spot when his behaviour is just a little bit off and move to red alert. I am also wondering if his gut flora needs time to adapt to the recent change in his food intake (or has been disrupted by the type of rabbit treats he's been getting recently - even in small amounts) in which case simplifying what he eats may speed up that process.
I'll try to get hold of thumps as she may have useful insight.
 
I have had a couple of Rabbits who had problems with their cecum. So I was thrown onto a rather drastic learning curve about it all.

Sorry to hear that Jack's Jane .. I hope they were ok and they/you were able to manage the condition.. bunnies are incredibly complex animals .. i am on a constant learning curve, helped along by the forum members - really helps to tap into the expertise here :)
 
Thanks mightymax :) his dental was 3 weeks ago and was his first - he had spurs on back teeth, one side worse than the other. He hadn't presented with any feeding issues at that time but was dropping cecals (for a while before) but there's been no change in that respect post dental. When he's not in 'withdrawn mode' he eats like a lion - i have googled prader-wili syndrome in case bunnies get it- seriously it is like he can't eat fast enough :) The links were great - thanks - i see what jack's jane was getting at re megacolon re coat colour - luckily it's not my white bunny (who is - touchwood- bullet proof in terms of health :)). - and useful to know what tests to discuss with vet. I'll keep an eye on him and restrict his diet meantime .. on plus side it is really easy for me to spot when his behaviour is just a little bit off and move to red alert. I am also wondering if his gut flora needs time to adapt to the recent change in his food intake (or has been disrupted by the type of rabbit treats he's been getting recently - even in small amounts) in which case simplifying what he eats may speed up that process.
I'll try to get hold of thumps as she may have useful insight.

You're really welcome Griffski :D

I also have a bun who cannot eat fast enough! I just looked into the prader-willi that you mentioned - yes he's just like that! But some animals can be extremely food motivated and also possessive of their food - i.e. it's best to give them a bowl to themselves as all they want to do is eat all of it :)

I'm glad his teeth are OK post dental, and that you found the links useful :)

You are so vigilant that nothing will slip by you regarding his behaviour. He's lucky to have you fighting his corner :D
 
Sorry to hear that Jack's Jane .. I hope they were ok and they/you were able to manage the condition.. bunnies are incredibly complex animals .. i am on a constant learning curve, helped along by the forum members - really helps to tap into the expertise here :)

Their condition was managed reasonably well, one actually lived to be almost 9 despite the fact that his problems started at the age of 2. He was a coloured Rabbit, so possibly there was a genetic cause.

Rabbits certainly are complex, I guess that is why they fall into the 'Exotics' category in Veterinary Medicine.
 
If I can just say thanks for the private message & welcome to RU Griffski.
You've got the best on RU on this thread already Griffski I've nothing to add of any consequence.
It's odd but the running for food, hungry, but then dropping it can be purely a sign of caecal issues. Obviously dental buns do it too if the spurs have ulcerated their mouth.
There was once a hypothesis that it was the wrong bacteria/microrganisms ~(I hate that word - terrified of doing a typo) in the caecum & which released toxins which increased the blood supply to the tooth roots were the cause of tooth overgrowth /spurs.
On the other hand it is also said that GI slow down/stasis for any reason causes inbalance in the caecal micro organisms for up to 6 weeks.

I've only 2 silly questions. This rush for food. Has your bunny started to eat more than he used to? & what is happening to his weight. (It's best to weigh them at about the same time of day. Pooping can make a bit of difference to weight.)

As an example of how I'm thinking - Early in his illness 3,7 kilo Thumper ate slightly under 3 litres of grass /day (low nutrient like hay & needs an intact caecal digestive system) Towards the end of his illness Thumper ate a whole carrierbagful of much higher nutrient value fresh dandelions /day weight still 3.7 kilo. He needs more food to maintain weight ergo he's not able to absorb as much from his food as before.
The food type shift is interesting too although totally irrelevant here.

What I'd love to do with your bun. but it may not be possible, is to find or beg about a dozen leafy apple twigs from somewhere. let him start eating & put a twig down beside his bowl. He won't know what it is at 1st, but he'll be curious & have a nibble. If after say 4-5 goes he's going really crazy for the apple twigs & leaves, & wants them preferentially above any other food, I would start to think that there's a bit more to it than simple diet, recent dental & dysbiosis.

There's so much "chicken & egg" situations with GI tract issues.
I once put up a thread asking for people's experience of using "tree leaves" for their stasis prone buns in questionnaire form which included the causal diagnosis. The spread of diagnoses was amazing. NB using forage is incredibly time consuming, back breaking, & scary to get enough to get through winter when you're totally dependant on it. Let's just do our best to get a standard bunny diet to work shall we?

I've a great respect for JJ & Mighty Max. I'm just butting in because you e-mailed me. It's so much better if we all have our say openly on the thread, & everyone knows exactly what's going on.
Keeping a diary is essential, but can you also keep us updated on here please?
Let's go for it.

ETA Another thing which buns with caecal issues often do is to EAT (not just shred) any cardboard or (wall) paper they can get their paws on. My Thumper learned to open a pedal bin to get to the paper! Thumper ate it - nothing to clean up. Benjie shreds it - he's making a warren complex in his boxes & there's loads of "confetti" mess.
 
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