Prevent the Selling of Long-Haired Breeds [Archive]

Diddeen

11-08-2004, 06:34 PM

My rabbit is a very fluffy lionhead. I bought him from teh New Forest Show from a breeder there. I looked at many adult lionheads at the show and thought they were nice rabbits so decided to buy a baby one. I must admit he was adorable as a ball of fluff but was told that as he grew up this would disappear and leave just a mane and skirt. However it never did! I have to groom him at least every other day or other wise he gets bad knots. He isnt too bad to groom altho he doesnt tolerate being on his back for long. I had a bad time with him a few months ago where he had some big matts i couldnt get rid of and he had a few pooing probs due to the hair he ate. A breeder helped me at that point and i think now he has finished the main moult. He is still very fluffy and long haired but its not so thick as it was earlier in the year. I agree they shouldnt be sold in pet shops, however at places such as the new forest show, anyone can buy a baby there.
I have been told that he is like this as occassionally when breeding a lionhead you get a fluffy one that is like a throw back to their origins.
Chris

anon101

11-08-2004, 09:39 PM

I personally dont think ANY Rabbit's should be available from Pet Shop's.

I do agree that long haired Rabbit's take much more care and attention. They need a much more dedicated owner.

I have an Angora x from Emma at Furry Friends Rescue. He was one of many being breed for Snake food.

His fur grows quite long and take daily brushing. Im lucky as he just sits there while I do it and takes it in his stride and I also enjoy doing it.

Louise

Adele

11-08-2004, 11:08 PM

Hello EllePotter and welcome to the Forum.
It is good of you to consider taking on a long haired bunny, and it sounds like you (and the bunny) are enjoying your time together.
Have you found any good books specifically targeted at caring for long haired bunnies, or did someone give you advice as how to care for him??

I am interested to hear that you feel that pet shops should not sell pets full stop.
What are you specific concerns re pet shops?
If pet shops were much more carefully regulated and pets needs met better whilst they were in pet shops would you feel more comfortable about the idea?

It is very difficult to make such a sweeping change as to ban all pet shops from selling pets, perhaps it could be staged and numbers reduced to start with, and those left to sell pets have much more rigid regulations they have to follow.

I wonder if Pet shop Owners feel frustrated by things too, as they do not have many guidelines in place to follow and perhaps that is why standards and level of care varies so widely.
I look forward to hearing more views on this subject.

Dorothy

12-08-2004, 09:56 AM

Hi Ellepotter, good to see you :D .
I have 5 Angora crossbreeds here, they all take a lot of grooming and looking after. I hate the thought that anyone could buy one from a pet shop as they are so time consuming and need extra care and attention. Most people have no idea of the extra special needs of these bunnies in order to keep them healthy and comfortable.
I spoke recently and gave advice to a lady who bought an Angora from a pet shop and hoped that she would follow the advice. However I was saddened to hear that she decided to breed from the bunny because she was of the opinion that it was broody and needed babies. Now of course she will have long haired babies to home and has no real rabbit knowledge. A situation that causes concern. It is difficult to get through to people that spaying a bunny is the right choice for health reasons and also to prevent further bunnies being born unnecessarily when we have a rabbit welfare crisis and rescues are bursting at the seams. Long haired rabbits are almost impossible to re-home as their are so few people willing to take the trouble to care for them.
I am sure Emma would agree, as I know Ted was in rescue for a long time. Well done for taking such great care of him.

Lazylops

12-08-2004, 10:43 AM

HI Chris and Simba
the coat on long-haired bunnies can be a complete nightmare, and does involve a lot of care, of which you seem to have a hold of... :D Unfortunately, there are still sales pens at some of the larger shows, but the BRC are now gradually beginning to remove these due to the fact that anyone can buy a bunny from them at a fairly low price. No disrespect to yourself of course, as it is obvious Simba has landed on his feet, so to speak.. :lol:

I have two Cashmeres, Dougal and Harry and am about to get an Angora x from Sue at bracknell. The long haired breeds are time consuming, but if you can give the time they do have wonderful temperaments.

anon101

12-08-2004, 10:52 AM

Hi Adele,

I havent got any books specifically about Long haired Rabbits. I have a few that mention them but thats about it. I care for Ted like I would any other Rabbit other then his daily grooming sessions and a full groom out once a week. He gets one day off a week from being groomed as I feel its not fair on him to do it evreyday. He's just recently been clipped due to the hot weather so he's getting a brush over once a week at the moment as he's nice and short.

I believe in today's time's when we have a population of over 30,000 Rabbit's in Rescue centers its not justified selling Rabbit's in Pet Shops and via Breeders etc.

Maybe when times change and the population of Rabbit's in recues is no more we can start to work out strict guidelines for breeding/selling live animals so we dont end up with the problem we have got now.

Louise

anon101

12-08-2004, 10:56 AM

Thanks for your kind words Dorothy!

I really enjoy looking after Ted. In the future when we have more space I would defintley consider taking on more long haired buns!

Louise

bunnytales

12-08-2004, 11:20 AM

[quote="ellepotter"]I personally dont think ANY Rabbit's should be available from Pet Shop's.

Hi Ellepotter - lovely to see you on the Forum - I've read many of your postings on TF.

Ohhhhh - this is a tough one!! - and one Adele knows all too well is quite close to my heart -

My thoughts change constantly regarding this area - originally I felt that Petstores/Garden Centres should not sell small animals - there is too much temptation for an impulse buy - after all why not give these small animals the same rights as Cats - your not able to buy those in petstores easily any more - but on the other hand - my first bunny Buffy was brought from a Petstore as at that time I knew little of the plight of bunnies and rescue centres etc and I wonder now that If I hadn't walked into that Petstore and bought her would I ever have gotten into helping rescue centres and Veterinary centres improve their welfare.
I guess you might feel - well I'm a minority case - difficult to know really - so I'm trying really hard to keep an open mind on this issue and learn just what could possibly be done to regulate Petstores - I willing to give is a bash!! - what do you think Louise?

anon101

12-08-2004, 12:56 PM

OK, Here are my views on the Pet Shop etc debate. I don’t mean to offend anybody and these are my personal views.

I don’t believe there is a right or wrong answer to this. Whatever way you look at it, it has its disadvantages and advantages.

In an ideal world there would be a total ban on selling/breeding Rabbit's until the Rabbit population in rescues was brought under control. Strict regulations could then be enforced to make sure the problem we have now doesn’t happen again. Whether it be by licensing, fining etc.

The above would never happen, as it would never go thou government. Rabbit's don’t have a big enough profile in the UK to get the support needed for the above to happen. It would cost the government millions to do and what would they get out of it? Who would care? "Its only a Rabbit!"

A lot of people still class Rabbit's as animals to be eaten not Pets, if an appeal went out in a paper for the 30,000 Rabbits in rescues the majority of people would say "its only a Rabbit!” But if an appeal went out for 30,000 dogs that would grab peoples attention, we are a nation of dog lovers so I’m told and we've kept dog as pets for years, they've never been part of our food chain, we've never hunted them like we have Rabbit's.

The main problem is people's attitudes to Rabbit's. A lot of Rabbits are brought as child's pets. Rather then getting one from a rescue where you might have to pay £20+ for it, sign adoption agreements, maybe even have a home check. It’s much easier to go into a pet shop and buy one for £10.00 whatever there sold for now with no hassle. At the end of the day, "its only a Rabbit"! That’s a lot of people’s attitudes.

On the other side there is the people that want to get their Rabbit's neutered but cant afford to get them neutered or don’t want to pay that much. It costs £50.00 plus to get a Rabbit neutered. It’s nearly as much as a dog. There are no neutering vouchers for Rabbits and the RSPCA don’t offer discounts. What message does that send out to people? Again peoples attitudes are "its only a Rabbit", why bother?

Then you get people like us the minority. Who understand the situation. We get our Rabbit's neutered; we try and spread the word. That's fair enough but we can only educate and help those who want to know or listen. The majority of people don’t want to know, "Its only a Rabbit!"

Re. Pet shops. Yes, I dislike them; I believe there should be a ban on selling any live animals in this way. This may happen one day but its not going to help the situation. There's still the people who don’t get their Rabbit's neutered, breeders. They sell their Rabbit's thou place’s like Ad-mag, online classifieds. It’s a hidden market, like a black market. You can’t see what goes on, what conditions these Rabbit's are kept in. At least in a pet shop its an open environment, you can walk in and see how there being kept, get the RSPCA round if there being ill treated/ill kept.

At the end of the day when it boils down to the nitty gritty it people's attitude’s towards Rabbit's and money that are our worst enemy’s in the fight for Rabbit welfare.

All we can do is, is help those Rabbit's that are in need by rescue and re-homing and try and educate people, and try and raise the profile of Rabbit’s..

I would be interested to here people's views on this and can anybody see a way forward?
.

Louise

Stephanie

12-08-2004, 01:07 PM

I don't normally voice my views/opinions but feel that its time :lol:

My personal opinion is that NO ANIMALS SHOULD BE SOLD FROM PET SHOPS, whether they are better regulated or not. A shop is a shop and therefore their aim is to make MONEY and not the welfare of the animal.

Adele - you say

It is very difficult to make such a sweeping change as to ban all pet shops from selling pets, perhaps it could be staged and numbers reduced to start with, and those left to sell pets have much more rigid regulations they have to follow.

Life is full of rules and regulations for humans and the majority of them are not adhered to, even less would be adhered animals to in pet shops because people just think of them as 'animals' and they don't have feelings. Don't get me wrong there is always an exception to the rule but I am talking about the majority here. !

I wonder if Pet shop Owners feel frustrated by things too, as they do not have many guidelines in place to follow and perhaps that is why standards and level of care varies so widely.

What guidelines should someone need to make sure that an animal is well looked after, if it seems unwell that it needs vetinary care - these guidelines should be commonsense, especially to someone who owns a petshop but time and time again you hear of people going into petshops only to see animals that have no food, can't reach their water, are quite obviously unwell, the list goes on, not to mention the abuse some of these poor animals receive when they get taken home !!

Just my opinion :D and hope it offends no-one.

Nix

12-08-2004, 02:54 PM

I am against selling all animals in pet shops mainly because it is just too easy to go in there, see an animal and walk straight out with it. You don't have to think about what looking after the animal will involve, how long it will live etc - which is particularly important in the case of long haired breeds of rabbit. I think this is the main reason for so many pet shop buns end up in rescues. Maybe if buying an animal was made a bit harder, as it is with dogs and cats, less would be abandoned.

I can't comment on rabbits available at shows because I've never been to one... But if it's a similar situation where you can simply walk away with a rabbit then it is a similar problem. Although having said that, anyone attending a show would already have an interest in rabbits and maybe more knowledge.

Lazylops

12-08-2004, 02:55 PM

Your opnion is well comed Stephanie, as is everybodies. :D

Hello sorry to intrude on your posting Annie...I just wanted to add, that it is great to hear everyones opinions, they are all equally valid, and it is the policy of this Forum that open debate is to be allowed. :D (Adele-Diplomat)

Tamsin

12-08-2004, 04:05 PM

I wonder if Pet shop Owners feel frustrated by things too, as they do not have many guidelines in place to follow and perhaps that is why standards and level of care varies so widely.

Thats a interesting point. As Stephanie says there are some things that are common sense like providing water, keeping things clean and going to a vet with health problems. On the other hand there is a lot of conflicting advise available on caring for rabbits and I admit despite reading several books before getting a bunny there was a lot that I didn't learn until later. Things like neutering, bonding 'rules', diets etc. are often come as you get more experience. I wonder if a lot of petshops are giving out the wrong advice without realising they are even doing so. Rabbits are generally only one small aspect of running a petshop business and most owners won't have a rabbit as a pet. If no one challenges their knowledge then they assume they have things right.

Tamsin

Ps. I just wanted to congratulate everyone on putting their different views across in such a friendly manner. Thank you! :D

bunnytales

12-08-2004, 04:40 PM

This is really great to hear all the different views and sounds like although we can differing views - were all trying to work from the same page here - for the good of the bunnies.

Re Tams interesting points - It seems that the topic can get even more complex in that you have differing levels of Petstore. There is a small independent chain of Stores local to me who sell bunnies. When ever I have visited - yep - the bunnies appear to be in good health and kept in a clean airy environment with food and water. The other side of the coin is a Large well now Garden Centre again fairly close to me who sell bunnies and now ferretts. They are kept in relatively small areas which must be roasting in the hot weather and at Easter they were even selling Easter Eggs along side the bunnies to promote sales - call me a pesimist if you like but I find it hard to imagine that the Directors of these larges outlets care regarding the ongoing welfare of the bunnies they provide but more about the profit which will go into their pockets.
That said - How do we try and get an even keel to this situation - how about - could the Petstores/Garden Centres not sell small animals but have referals to reputable Rescues where they could perhaps work together in a "win - win" situation - o.k - lets explore this then!! - So
if Petstores were to set up "Partner" arrangements with rescues - then o.k they would loose the profit on the bunny sale but could be recommended by Rescue Centres for accessory items such as Hutches, Hays, - the list is endless. I would imagine that the Petstore is going to make more profit in these areas than on the bunny anyhow. The Petstore would also then have the benefit of being recommended by the Rescue Centre for rehomed bunnies also - so they inturn can increase there profits - they wouldn't be losing out!!

Just garbled food for thought folks - Hey Tams - hopefully we can get some Petshop owners on for their thoughts re if this would work.

What do you think folks?

Dorothy

12-08-2004, 07:28 PM

Well Lany, that's not a bad idea, just of the top of yor head!! Linking Pet Stores to rescues is definitaly food for thought. After all it's not the bunny they make their profit on, it's the accessories that go with the bunny i.e. hutch, run, bottle, bowls, toys etc, and of course repeat sales for food , hay ,straw. If the bunny was adopted from a rescue then home checks would have to be done and people would have to wait, which would stop impulse buys and people would be given advice from rabbit savy people. Also if they then tired of the bunny or for some other reason could not keep it, they would have to return it to the rescue, rather than dump it or pass it on to some unsuitable person.
It is definitaly an idea worthy of some more thought. What does everyone else think.
Just a thought, wouldn't that also put a stop to the backstreet breeders who so often supply some pet shops.

Tamsin

12-08-2004, 07:30 PM

I think it would be good to get some petshop owner in to discuss it, they'll be able to shed some light on things from their point of view. If anyone knows anyone involved with running a petshop please do invite them to join us.

I think the partner plan is a good idea, there is a similar scheme being tested in the US at the moment so it will be interesting to see that results of that. Setting up this sort of scheme means th rescues and petshops have to consult with each other and relies on the petshops not minding losing out on the sales. They may gain by getting a recommendation from the rescue but there are usually multiple petshops in an area so if they all agreed to the scheme then it wouldn't make much difference as they'd all be refered if you follow me. It definately has potential though.

I imagine individual small petshops would work best as with chains they are often contrained by the instructions given by the director.

Best wishes,
Tamsin

Diddeen

12-08-2004, 08:13 PM

Thats ok Annie im not offended. To be totally honest i wasnt planning on getting a rabbit when i went to the show, just fell in love with him and couldnt say no! I wasnt given any advice on grooming or caring for him.. I asked a few questions about food and housing and they told me but was very rushed which i was suprised at seeing as they were coming from breeders. I think in the future i would prefer to contact a breeder directly as they tend to give good advice and support if u buy a rabbit from there. When i was a kid i bought several rabbits from petshops with very little advice altho they were well cared for when i got them and all friendly. Pet shops vary so much. The problem with stopping them from selling pets is then you may get the people who breed solely for petshop rabbits selling them themselves and may still not give good care or advice.
Personally i would rather see stricter rules on petshops with guidance on no.s of animals in each cage and sizes of cages etc, regular checks etc..
Chris.

Lucy118

12-08-2004, 11:59 PM

I agree that peoples veiws on rabbits is wrong.

untill i got my rabbits i didn't realise how rewarding they are. People do not understand that it takes a lot of time to gain their trust and they are not toys that can be pulled around so they lose intrest in them and bunny is sent to live at the bottom of the garden.

What worrys me most is the lack of knowledge pet shops have about the care that these animals actully need.

I know a women that used to work in a pet shop that was closing and threatening to put down the 5 remaining male rabbits. With good intensions of saving their lifes she took all 5 un netured males home and kept them togeather in a run attache to a shed. as you can imagen they ended up in a state from continuanly fighting. I belive that working in a pet store she should have know better .

You also find many pet shops selling male pairs and they never seem to ask what conditions that animal will be kept in and the runs they sell are far to small to be any good any way.

I really do not think that these people have the knowledge to actully experss to some one the time and long term comitment that haveing a long haired takes.

as im sure it is most peoples experiance i find that my casghm,ere party boy hates to be brushed down every day while he puts up with it he is not keen on sitting still for the 3o mins it takes you un knott him. I belive that is would be far kinder if they were no longer bread.

Tamsin

13-08-2004, 12:04 AM

My first two bunnies were a pair of males from a petshop, their was no mention of the fact they might fight when older or that it could be prevented by neutering. Luckily for them we were able to have two hutches & runs but this isn't possible for some owners and then the bunny would have ended up in rescue.

Tam

Adele

13-08-2004, 08:37 AM

Wow! I have just tuned in to this thread and I think you guys and gals are all great...presenting such thoughtful ideas and interesting points.
It is even better to see opinions backed up with suggestions for practical solutions, as it is only by debate that things may start to become clearer and we can perhaps start to see a way forward.
I think the general consensus is that CHANGE is needed, and what is being explored now is how to perhaps implement change.

As one of the Forum Diplomats I am trying not to give my own personal views but instead prompt debate, but I find that yous do not require much prompting and are quite happily rabbiting away... :D (without any fur flying as yet too!! :wink: )

Each posting I have read has very valid points, and thank you for contributing all your thoughts ....please keep the ideas rolling!.

I do feel that rabbits are sold too cheaply and this makes folk think they are lesser of a "commidity" welfare wise too.
If Rescues and Pet Shops could somehow be linked, then bunnies should perhaps be sold at a much higher price 1) To Deter the impulse buyers
2) To make folk aware that bunnies are not an "easy option" pet but one who have quite complicated needs.
If Rescues were involved and neutering etc undertaken before the pet was "sold" on, then money paid for the bunnies would directly go to the Rescues to cover their costs.
As Lany has pointed out, this is a "Win, Win" situation, as the Rescues would receive funding for their work instead of constantly having to fund raise and rely upon donations, and the Pet shops gain as Rescues could in return promote specific Pet Shops in the "Partnership Scheme" so folk could buy all their pet foods, hutches etc and the shop make a profit that way.
Would folk feel more comfortable with this idea......how could this Partnership idea be implemented? Are there any links to web sites in America to a Scheme such as this, so we can have a look at how it is being implemented there?
Can you foresee any difficulties with a Scheme such as this?
I think this is the first idea I have been confident with, that could actually work.....
I think Tamsin is right, perhaps we could approach a selection of Pet shop Owners and ask their views on this, so folk, if you know any nice friendly pet shop owners, PLEASE DO tell them about this Forum as we would like to hear from them..thank you :D

Tamsin

13-08-2004, 09:30 AM

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The trouble with neutering before selling is who meets the cost? Does the breeder keep the animals until they are older enough (at least an extra month) and then pay the vet out of their pocket hoping the bunny sells and they get reinbursed. Does the petshop take the bunny and pay for the upkeep before neutering, pay for the op and then hope people are willing to buy a bunny for £75 insted or getting a free one elsewhere? I imagine only the sort of people that were responsible enough that they intended to neuter anyway would buy at that price and others would just go elsewhere. So we haven't got at the people most likely to have problems :(

I think a commision scheme has potential for example, petshops could be given 'vouchers' with the rescue contact details on to give out to customers. When the customer took it to the rescue and adopted a bun the petshop couldd be given commision, say £5, which could be added on to the adoption fee.

Tam

bunnytales

13-08-2004, 11:12 AM

Howdi guys and gals!

Tams I think the Voucher idea is well worth persuing and this would work well as part of the "partnership" idea - O.K - so here's the bit I'm strugggling with which you quite rightly mentioned Tams:-

If the Voucher Scheme and general Partner idea was introduced - how can we stop folks going elsewhere - I heard recently of somewhere within my area where kids were breeding bunnies and selling at the back gate for a £5 each!!! :shock: - It's almost as if we need some legislation to brought in which in effect makes the unregulated breeding of bunnies illegal :!: - lordy only knows if this would ever be achievable!! - given that Mr Blair obviously has more pressing things on his Agenda! but without this I think Tams is exactly right - I think there is a real danger that folks will still seek out the £5/£10 bunny purchase.

I personally think its great when Rescue centres vaccinate, neuter etc for you when you buy - Cagney - Pickie below was a rescue bunny from Tracy at Rabbit & Guinea Pig Welfare in Rugby and I think if my memory serves me right her cost was around £50 but the bunny has a much better chance if purchased neutered as generally they are more calmer in nature - can be bonded etc - In doing the VET Practice News Letter I have heard some many horror stories from clients who now have bunny teenagers with hormones running riot!! - so I've done a special feature this quarter on the benefits etc - any how - getting back on track!

So in short I think we still have a way to go re this general idea to get something that will get at the route of the problem.

Over and Out

Debbie

13-08-2004, 01:32 PM

:? hiya everyone, am new to this but i work in a pet shop part time, i tend to avoid selling livestock as most people buying buns dont have a clue about their basic needs or even what they eat - thier kids see a little fluffy bun and beg there parents for it (thats what i see alot). we do have care leaflets that we hand out to everyone who considers or buys a pet, but i still feel guilty as its my job even though i know there are older buns out there needin homes.

Adele

13-08-2004, 01:59 PM

Hi there Debbie and a huge welcome to the Forum, great to hear from you.

I wonder whether we can call upon you to please give your thoughts as to how we can help Pet Shops who DO choose to sell Lifestock.
Assuming that animal sold in pet shops will not be banned eventually...how do we set about improving things??
How do you feel about the Pet Shop and Rescue "Partnership"idea.??

bunnyhuggger

13-08-2004, 02:54 PM

:wave: Hiya Debbie! :D Glad you got here and you're very welcome. You'll have to post those pics you sent me on here and let everyone see your wabbits!

Towsbuns

13-08-2004, 05:29 PM

Continuing on from the partnership ide - this could easily be started on a small scale by rescue centres - maybe you could all give those who adopt your buns a list of the pet shops in your area that do not sell livestock and encourage the new owners to go there for their food etc. and ask them to tell those petshops that you recommended that they go there. After a while the rescue could contact these shops and ask them to promote you in return.
I tend to buy my stuff from Jollyes which is a UK wide large sized shop (similar to Petsmart but without the pets except fish) - maybe they would be a start.

Lucy118

14-08-2004, 01:08 AM

I think that the most practical thing that could be done would be a 10 day cooling off period in pet shops where a person would go to a pet shop and express there intreast in a paticular bunny they would then be given all the information on careing for them. Their should then be a 10 day cool off period after that the person can return for there bunny. This would help to stop impulse buying and ensure that people are given all the information needed before they take on the responablity of ensureing there rabbit gets the best qulity of life possible. laws on cage size would also help the 3 foot by 3 foot runs they sell in pet shops are a joke. any one who has ever sat back and watched a rabbit enjoying a good run around the graden will understand why these cramped prisons are so terrible.
while i don't belive that we will ever manage to ban the sale of caged animals laws to improve there qulity of life are needed so badly.

doorkeeper

16-08-2004, 10:51 AM

Hi,
It seems to me that one of the best ways to curb pet shops sales of rabbits would be to regulate the size of hutches. If the outlay on a hutch were larger people would think twice before buying that little bundle of fluff. No one would dream of keeping a cat in a box and I think it is disgusting that it is so routinely assumed to be alright to confine rabbits to small spaces where they can easily be forgotten, and where they have to suffer in silence. Petshops would make more money on hutch sales and so get by making fewer sales.

By the way neutering does not have to cost £50. I have had my animals neutered at the Pet Vaccination Clinic and it costs only £25 per animal whether it is a spey or castration. www.petvaccinationclinic.co.uk

Tamsin

16-08-2004, 11:05 AM

Thats a brilliant angle on the problem Louise!

I emailed petplanet just over a week ago about their tiny hutches but haven't had a response :( Actually!!! I just checked their site and there is no sign of the 3' rabbit hutches they had :shock: So either they listened or ran out of stock :)

Tam

bunnytales

16-08-2004, 02:33 PM

:o Blimey!! - this thread just keeps growing and growing!!

All good stuff though - I need some help though guys and gals - I'm really struggling with the concept - Pretty strange considering I kinda starting the ball rolling with the Partnering idea!! -
I'm really struggling to see how we can stop the impulse type bunny purchase - I went into one of the bigger pet chain stores the weekend and it just seems they have a captive customer - on more than one occassion I saw children pleading with Mum - could they have a cuddly bunny - I know, I know, - we've all been there as kids but you just know where the cutie little bunny will probably end up - the nearest rescue in 8 month time or less! - I feel the only way that the Bunny will win is if they are rehomed by Rescue Centres who will give out the appropriate welfare information or through a reputable breeder network who would hopefully regulate the number of new bunns introduced - Oh boy - I thinking I'm hoping for an ideal world eh folks :roll:

I'm more than willing to try and find out the head office number for the larger of the stores in my area to see if they would be receptive to the idea but feel it would have more credabilty if it came from Rabbs United or Rabbit Welfare Fund (speaking of which - do the RWF do any campaigning in this particular area).

I think the Partner idea is certainly worth a go for the smaller petstores, I know of another Pet Store locally to me who do not sell any livestock and I bet they would welcome the partner idea - I think the big big challenge will be with the larger Pet Stores/Garden Chains. Just to throw in another query is that Garden Centres now sell a large variation of small animals, G.Piggs, Ferrets etc so they would perhaps say where should they draw the line -

I'm struggling! :?

bunnyhuggger

16-08-2004, 02:38 PM

By the way neutering does not have to cost £50. I have had my animals neutered at the Pet Vaccination Clinic and it costs only £25 per animal whether it is a spey or castration. www.petvaccinationclinic.co.uk

Unfortunately, we're not lucky enough to have this facility in Scotland :(

Karen2

16-08-2004, 06:41 PM

I just wanted to sya that rabbits in a pet shop now cost around £25. When I am in my local shop...who happen to listen to what I say re the buns. If they knew what I say to people that i are looking at them the shop would probably ban me! I mention that there are lots of rabbits in rescues and the nearly local rescue centre rehonmes them for £38 and they are vaccinated....25 per year.......neuterd ..around £60 for a female and then proceed to tel them why theyare neutered and vaccinated

Karen2

16-08-2004, 06:45 PM

As for long haired breeds...no they should not be available to the generalpublic theybdomtake a lot of extra care....Oloiver was a rescue cashmere, his breeders were at leats conscentious on this matter if they had a long haired breed abck..they never bred from it again...not that I belive in breeding........just at least they did that and the lng haired ended up in rescue centers

Holly Go-Lightly

16-08-2004, 09:41 PM

My thoughts change constantly regarding this area - originally I felt that Petstores/Garden Centres should not sell small animals - there is too much temptation for an impulse buy - after all why not give these small animals the same rights as Cats - your not able to buy those in petstores easily any more - but on the other hand - my first bunny Buffy was brought from a Petstore as at that time I knew little of the plight of bunnies and rescue centres etc and I wonder now that If I hadn't walked into that Petstore and bought her would I ever have gotten into helping rescue centres and Veterinary centres improve their welfare.
I guess you might feel - well I'm a minority case - difficult to know really - so I'm trying really hard to keep an open mind on this issue and learn just what could possibly be done to regulate Petstores - I willing to give is a bash!! - what do you think Louise?

Dear Lany,

My first rabbit was bought from a pet store as well. I went to visit her and have cuddles and realised I had finally found an animal I wasn't allergic to. When she came home with me I realised how wonderful rabbits are. If I never found Holly my life would be seriously different. I love all my pets so much. My friends and neighbours can't believe how jolly and clever they are. They are a pleasure. I know that not all people who buy a pet in a shop are going to be great owners but in the same breath some are fanatstic. We should concentrate on finding ways to communicate, educate and provide support when the going get tough for some pet owners. This web site is such a great first step! My huband and I are dedicated members of the RWA, we plan to attend Bristol, we support our local rescue, and it all started by being a baddie pet store customer :wink:

bunnytales

17-08-2004, 10:55 AM

:D Hi Holly Go-Lightly

What lovely Bunnies you have - they are beauuuutiful!!

Yep - strange what starting out a bit of a baddie can do eh! - The Petshop impulse purchase resulted in me:-

Falling head over heals about Bunnies
Getting an interest in Rescue Centres
Joining RWF
Wanting to help improve Bunny Welfare
Doing a local Veterinary News Letters
Meeting mad friends (Adele are you listening Gal!!)

But my worry still is the child impulse purchase - I know there are those of us that started our bunny passion much younger in life but statistics still show that children will generally become bored with a Bunny within a very short period of time. I know its hoped that the new legislation which hopefully will become Law regulating under 16 purchases may help but if they are accompanied by their parents as many are - I feel it will make little difference.

Great that your going to the RWF - hopefully work permitting - I can scrap some time off to pop along.

:wink:

Adele

17-08-2004, 04:04 PM

Hey Lany...who are YOU calling "Mad"....takes one to know one...you cheeky monkey.....wrist slap coming your way for showing up the "Management"...no one will ever take me seriously again at this rate, just you wait...."pellets at dawn" :lol: :lol:

I cannot believe this thread, it is amazing that everyone is talking so openly and no clashes have occured yet..keep the debate going, it is getting more interesting by the minute!!.
Loved the idea of enforcing minimum hutch size to be sold with bunnies...this would raise the cost of bunnies beyond many folks "impulse buys".. :D

Rexy bexy

17-08-2004, 10:02 PM

hi,
i can see ur ponit of view her but all breeders i know dont breed for pet shops but for them selfs for showing and if we couldn't sell to pet shops most of us would not be able to breed theses fluffy animals so that would mean that breed would not exist any more. I can see what u mean and i feel that customers should be aware of the work and commitmet that has to be put into a fluffy rabbit. Know all the angora breeds i know only bred rearly as they wont sell to pets shops and i have explained more in the post long haired lovelies
becky

anon101

17-08-2004, 11:07 PM

Hi Becky,

I understand that quite a few breeder's dont sell to Pet Shop's as they dont get a good enough price for there stock.

Is this true in your opinion?

What happen's to a breeder's showng stock when its gone past its prime?

Louise

Rexy bexy

17-08-2004, 11:28 PM

hi,
its not always the money but in geanral these days it hard to find a really good pet shop
also some breeds of rabbits r not good for pets especilaly not childern thses breeds r sold to other beeders of privatly sold so the breeder can see how it goes to and if they think they would be able to look after it.
eg-angora cause of there coat
english lop- cause of there extra extra long ears
polish- highly strung and not very cuddly and can have bad temperments even though they r only he same isze as a nethie
older rabbits r usually sold on r given to good homes or if they had fallen totally in love with then they stay
becky

anon101

17-08-2004, 11:46 PM

Dont you think that's unkind to the Rabbit to discard it like a used magazine once you've had your use out of it, whether it be showing or breeding?

From what you've just said most ex breeding/showing Angora's will find themselves in pet home's by been given away or sold by breeder's.

So the problem with proper care for Angora's is still there.

Its not the Pet Shop's we need to address here, its the breeder's.

They need to be more responsible for there Rabbit's welfare after its sold or given away. Not just dump an Angora on somebody. Make sure any future owner is well aware of the extra care an Angora need's.

Breeder's would'nt sell these long haired breeds or any Rabbit for that matter to pet shops if they REALLY cared for there Rabbit's welfare.

ANYBODY can buy a Rabbit from a pet shop.

Louise

Tamsin

18-08-2004, 12:03 AM

Becky didn't say that retired rabbits would be sold through petshops or that they would be dumped on anyone. I imagine they make sure that future owners are well aware of the extra care angoras need, after all who better than a breeder to explain the routine of caring for the fur.

Tamsin

bunnyhuggger

18-08-2004, 12:07 AM

Louise, I don't believe becky discards her rabbits like a used magazine, I think that's a generalised statement. It's not her fault that some breeders might be irresponsible. What would you rather a breeder did with their stock once they had had their use out of it? Becky is knowledgeable about her rabbits and takes good care of them unlike some backyard breeders we hear about. There have always been breeders and that is NEVER going to change. What we need to think about is how to persuade pet shops to be responsible.

Rexy bexy

18-08-2004, 12:14 AM

hi,
i didnt mean angora just rabbits in geneal
i dont know what happens to older angoras but most angora breeders make sure what home they go to has my mini cashlop was off a breeder who also bred angors and sed she is very careful how she sells hers too even her cash and sat down with ma and shoed me exactly how to car for it even thought she know me quite well and knows i look after all my bunnies ad she defo not seel to pet shops
no old stock it sold to pets shop as they woudnt take them any way
i know there r some really bad breeders about which makes me really angey :evil: especilly as they make the rest of ul look bad too
becky

Rexy bexy

18-08-2004, 12:16 AM

opps look at all them mistakes soz forgot to look throught it soz
becky

Tamsin

18-08-2004, 12:20 AM

Thats ok, if you spot a mistake you want to correct it after you have made post there is an 'edit' button on the top right of your post. If you click that you can make any changes you want :D

Its good point you make about not liking bad breeders either because it gives breeders in general a bad name. Thats why its important we take people as individuals and not make assumptions about things based on just one persons actions :)

Tam

anon101

18-08-2004, 01:06 AM

What would you rather a breeder did with their stock once they had had their use out of it?.

Keep them!

bunnyhuggger

18-08-2004, 01:08 AM

That's what some of them do.

Rexy bexy

18-08-2004, 01:30 AM

bunnytales

18-08-2004, 02:43 PM

Hi Becky - Nice to hear all your views on the issues here.

Can you tell me how you handle the ongoing welfare and support side of things for the bunnies you sell at shows or privately. I understand that you are a younger member of the Rabbit Council so just wondered if they provided any kind of support leaftlets for you to give out regarding Neutering and Vaccinations etc. Also you mention small bunnies being better for children as they are easier to hold - I think we all know that down at heart bunnies are ground loving critters and generally do not like being handled in any event which can make them particularly unsuitable for Children. Another really interesting point you mentioned was regarding Schools - did I get the jist right in that you take your bunnies into the School to see the Children? - this could be a good opportunity for Education for children in the responsibilities of pet ownership rather than just seeing a cuddly bunny which could result in more impulse purchases.

What do you think Becky?

Pendragon

18-08-2004, 03:56 PM

**ponders**

You know, things could be changed for the better - virtually overnight - if a certain (mentioning no names here) "Large National Pet Store Chain" stopped selling long-haired rabbits.

Take what happened to me last week: I was in my local small pet shop which only sells supplies, not pets. In comes a woman with two children, looking for just-got-a-new-rabbit items. The pet shop owner, who knows me well (perhaps too well!) was busy, so she called me over saying to the woman: "Ask this lady here - she knows everything about rabbits!"

Food? "We have a bag of that," said the woman, pointing at Burgess Excel. OK, I said: not bad - you could have done a lot worse!

You'll need some of this - I said, pulling down a bag of meadow hay (that pet shop sells the best hay I've ever seen). Wood shavings too, I say - so the woman picks up a small bale of sawdust.... er... ok... Oh, and this too - I said, showing her some Burgess Supa Forage. We'll leave that for now, she said.... "We haven't even got a hutch yet!" giggle giggle. Oh god.

I took her outside to show her the shop's poor efforts in the hutch department. She seemed keen on the £32 one that looked as though it was made of cardboard, and only 3ft x 14". "This is better!" I said, pointing at the £65 one, much better weatherproofed, 4ft long but sadly still only 16" wide. "Oh I can't afford the big one! The smaller one will do," she said..."it's only a dwarf rabbit."

"Where did you get it from?" I asked politely. "Oh the Big Pet Chain Store up the road," she replied... "I just fell in love with it! It's still in the car."

Deep breath. "Then you need to get a hutch NOW!" I said..."The poor bunny has had enough stress for one day... it needs time in its own space as soon as you get it home!" And then, because the pet shop lady was still hovering, "Can I see it?"

We walked round to the car. It was a boiling hot day - at least 80ºF in the shade. In a cardboard box, hot and bothered by the children who had returned to the car to be with their new bunny, was not a dwarf, but a Harlequin Cashmere Lop. "Male or female?" I inquired: "It's a girl, they said," and yes they had got something right! "Did they tell you she's not fully grown yet, she's about half grown, and that she is long haired and will need a LOT of grooming every day?" Did they heck! The bunny also had a large scab beside her eye that nobody had noticed, probably because of the store's habit of mixing all their female rabbits together.

"Now we're out of earshot of the pet shop lady," I said... "Do yourself a favour and go back to the chain store. The hutches they have there are better quality and bigger. Those over there [jerks finger] are, to put it mildly, ****, overpriced and far too small. You will need to spend at least £65 on anything decent anyway."

The lady said she would, and took my phone number in case she had any more questions. Once again I reminded her the bunny needed immediate housing, to get the children to leave it alone, and leave her to settle in for about 2 days without being picked up, pestered or fussed too much.

And as a final parting shot I said: "The grooming is going to be a real hassle if you're not prepared for it. I've seen some horribly messed up long-haired rabbits... some where the hair has matted into a hard shell on the back, like a tortoise, with open sores underneath.... Have a think about that in the car on the way to the Big Chain Store, and if you think you can't keep up the grooming, do the bunny a favour, and get a refund... or exchange her for a short-haired one!"

I haven't heard from her, and I almost dread to call and find out... All I can say for sure is I don't know any breeder who would allow an animal to leave their premises without making sure they had an adequate hutch ready at home, give them details of the breed and the size it will make (at least let them see the parents!) and all relevant information about grooming and the committment it needs.

Big Pet Stores like these proudly boast they they have "their own breeders" who supply them. I doubt they are show breeders... they probably exist only to supply an endless demand for fluffy-loppy-dwarfy types in pretty rainbow colours... some aren't even a particular breed, just a pretty crossbred. I wonder what happens to the "unpretty" ones?

I'm painfully aware that the pet rats these places sell come from commercial breeders [read: rat mills] who sell literally thousands of rats per week to Chain Stores all over the country, most of them younger than a reputable breeder would sell them, certainly unhandled, poorly socialised, often sick, frequently pregnant. Those that don't sell before they start to get too big, or are sick, are returned.... Most of these places also deal in frozen deadstock for reptiles, so that's where the "returns" and the "unpretty" rats go.

Do the breeders these stores get their rabbits from have a similar business ethic & attitude?

I wonder....

Stephanie

18-08-2004, 05:22 PM

hi,
i have never sold any of my older rabbits yet
but we cant keep them all even i f we wanted cause if we do then there is no room for younger rabbits that we could show. the more we keep, the less there handeled and less room for them to run
it not like we like giving them up but is some thing we have to do for the welfare of other rabbits we try to make sure all our rabbits go to good loving homes but that not always the case its not like we can do home checks to ever person who has a rabbit off us
if u get what i mean
becky

Hi Becky,

Beautiful bunnis you have btw :D

One thing that does disturb me Becky is that you say

'we cant keep them all even i f we wanted cause if we do then there is no room for younger rabbits that we could show. the more we keep, the less there handeled and less room for them to run'

obviously you would of had a particular 'show' rabbit for some time and would have built quite a bond with that rabbit and vice versa, I don't understand how that bond can all of a sudden be lessend to a point where you give the rabbit away, albeit to a good home or not !! We wouldn't do that to one of our children so why a rabbit ??

You also say that you can't home check every home that takes a rabbit off you....why not ? In my eyes I feel that is the least you could do for a animal that has given you his trust and love, should you give that back the best you can ?

Steph

Rexy bexy

18-08-2004, 05:22 PM

hi bunnytales,
i try to sell as many privatly but if i cant, i make sure they go to a good pet shop.
iv had alot of support from the brc and when i first joined i got a large folder full of information an if i have a problem there r many members of the brc willing to help me. Never thought of neutering my rabbits cause i breed from them.
when i take the bunnies to school i tell them how they should look after a bunny propely and all the care and work it takes to look after one i also make wrok sheets for them to do and write abit about them but cant do that much for 4-6 year olds but i tell them as much as i can take in and them they ask me questions
becky

cashmincal

18-08-2004, 06:51 PM

Hiya there

I thought I'd also join in this conversation. As you can see I breed and show Cashmere Lops and I strongly agree that Cashmere Lops and other longcoated breeds shouldn't go to petshops as they do need a knowlegleable home. The National Cashmere Lop Club also advise this. The National Cashmere Lop has grooming leaflets that explain the grooming that needs to be given. I don't breed many litters of Cashmere Lops because of this issue.

Clare

Tamsin

18-08-2004, 07:00 PM

It seems then that we are largely in agreement that petshops shouldn't sell the long haired breeds. It also seems that the responsible breeders are not selling them through petshops so the problem presumably lies with places like P@H that use their own breeders who are producing cute fluffy rabbits to attract sales.

So the question is how to we persuade petshops to refuse to sell long haired rabbits?

Tam

Rexy bexy

18-08-2004, 08:34 PM

hi Stephanie,
yes i do have bonds with all my rabbits thats why i still have all my older bunnies
yes i have many show bunnies
but many breeders have lots of bunnies and cant bond like people who only have afew pet ones, so is easier to let go of them
we would like to house check every one who has a bunnie from us, but we do not have the power to like the rspca, nor the time to either.
The best we can do is give as much info as possible and make sure its gone to the right owner
bceky

Comet Stud

18-08-2004, 09:20 PM

Hello all,

I am aslo a member of the BRC. I agree with you all that long haired breeds should not be sold in a typical high st pet store, as they just do not give enough info on the rabbit because usually they dont know enough info.

I dont think its fair saying that exhibitors pass on the adult stock without a care as this is unfare. Not all breeders do pass on there adults, they just retire them and keep them. But for others this is not possible and is usually better for the rabbit to be rehomed as they will get alot more attention. I have not yet parted with any adult stock as i am too attactched to mine, but one day i may have to and it will be very very hard!

I show for pleasure, it is my hobby and it takes up all my spare time. I spend atleast 2-3 hours with my bunnies each day aswell as having a full time job. So there is no reason why any one should think exhibitors are not good owners, as we are and we do care for our stock like any one else would!

Ex show rabbits are usually very good pets anyway as they are extremely used to being handled, so if was a mother wanting to buy a pet rabbit for my child i would be pleased with and ex show bun as you would know i was tame.

Emma

Adele

18-08-2004, 09:33 PM

Thank you Emma, you have raised some interesting points, you have helped clear up one misconception, that rabbits used for showing are not loved and cherished pets.
They can indeed be BOTH....good point too, that show rabbits are handled from very small bunnies and regularly too, so they can make for great pets who are not shy of human contact and interactions.
Many bunnies brought elsewhere have not been handled from youngsters and end up in homes with people who do not know how to help "socialise" them properly...the humans and bunnies fail to "gel" and some of the bunnies end up in Rescues, I know, as several in our Sanctuary have arrived here for exactly these reasons.
:D

Pendragon

18-08-2004, 10:21 PM

Reading many of your excellent posts, both here and on other threads, has made me wonder where, and how, some of you have arrived at your preconceptions and ideas about breeders.

I mean no disrespect by the above paragraph: I am merely curious. After all, if everyone who bought a rabbit from a pet shop assumed it had come from a "show" breeder, then I can see where prejudice may arise.

When I started breeding rabbits in my early teens, the scene was completely different. There were many older people who had been keeping rabbits for meat during WW2, when the government actively encouraged such practises. Many of these still used their non-show quality rabbits for this purpose. At that time, in the mid 70's, there were very few rabbits in rescue... and knowledge of rabbits in general was very poor. I had enormous trouble finding vets who would treat mine, and I am sorry to say some were PTS for conditions which nowadays would be treatable.

Things have changed enormously over the last 2 decades. There are now far more rabbits for sale in pet shops, yet the show breeding scene has declined, and the meat rabbit trade has disappeared. If there are fewer show-breeders now than before, where are the pet shops getting their rabbits?

Not only that, but there have been huge advances in small animal medicine and nutrition. I am amazed at the amount of knowledge, understanding and empathy that there is now, for an animal which was treated as "disposable" and "vermin" when I was a child.

I believe it is always wrong to generalise. Yes, there are bad show-breeders, but there are also many bad pet owners, who leave a neglected creature to die in a tiny poorly made hutch. There are also a great many so-called breeders who exist solely to supply pet shops with (usually) under-age baby rabbits of no particular breed, without caring what happens to them. I think these people outnumber the conscientious breeders by far... and very few of them would be BRC members.

Understanding that there are different types of breeders is, I think, important.... just as there are many different types of pet owner. Rabbit breeding is not a profession, and anyone who claims to make money out of them is - in my opinion (based on many years' experience with animal breeders and breeding) - almost certainly cutting corners somewhere and is not placing the animals' interests first.

Did you know, for instance, that the British Rabbit Council has a Code of Conduct, and recommends no rabbit goes to a new home before eight weeks? That it also has an investigation committee that can look into maltreatment of rabbits by its members? Or that most breeders actually keep their rabbits until 10 weeks, rather than 8? Or that members will be voting at the next AGM to disallow young rabbits to be taken to shows under 12 weeks?

There are some pet shops out there that flatly refuse to take rabbits older than 6 weeks... I don't know what kind of "breeder" patronises those places, but it wouldn't be one I'd be happy to be classed alongside!

Tamsin

18-08-2004, 10:31 PM

Did you know, for instance, that the British Rabbit Council has a Code of Conduct, and recommends no rabbit goes to a new home before eight weeks? That it also has an investigation committee that can look into maltreatment of rabbits by its members? Or that most breeders actually keep their rabbits until 10 weeks, rather than 8? Or that members will be voting at the next AGM to disallow young rabbits to be taken to shows under 12 weeks?

Nope, I think alot of us don't know much of that! We are hoping to learn though. Do the BRC print information for non members? It would be interesting to see the code of conduct. I have looked on their website before but couldn't find anything.

It would also be valuable to know more about the investigation commitee. I know several rescues have been involved with taking rabbits from breeders, some of which involved rabbits that were rung so possibly were BRC members. It would be good for rescues to know where they could report problems they came across.

Thank you,
Tamsin

Comet Stud

18-08-2004, 10:50 PM

well said Sue!!

There is an awful lot of things that people dont know about the BRC and its rules. BRC members also have to make sure that buyers of there rabbits a filled with information about how to look after them, handling, feeding, grooming, exercise etc. I personally give out care sheets and read it to the buyer and ask them to contact me with any problems etc. So we are very concerned for our rabbits and there new homes.

Emma

Rexy bexy

18-08-2004, 10:56 PM

hi emma,
i do the same too
when we first started breeding we went around as many pet shops to find the best. The one sed he takes them at 6 weeks and i told him were to stick it.
i usually sell mine a 10 weeks or in some cases longer but pet shops dont like it but i think rabbits shoulnt be sold on till at least 10 weeks of age
becky

bunnyhuggger

18-08-2004, 11:18 PM

preconceptions and ideas about breeders I think perhaps this may be a sweeping term used by the voice of Joe Public. It's natural for people to class all 'breeders' as 'breeders' BRC or backyard. Many Joe Publics don't even know that the BRC exists. Probably like the 'builder type guy' you mentioned in your other post!

It is a fact though that there are many ringed and unringed 'breed' rabbits in rescue centres ie dutches, angoras, rexes etc. as well as crossbreeds. Some forum members may remember I posted a request for information on how to remove BRC rings safely from rabbit's legs. When we see rabbits like this it is normal to think they come from proper as opposed to backyard 'breeders'. Having read some posts on other forums, show breeders do sell their surplus stock to small pet shops, to make room for new stock.

Also, you have to remember, rescue centres see the worst case scenarios ie. all levels of injured, deformed, abused, broken, psychologically damaged rabbits, and being rabbit lovers, it breaks our hearts, we have nightmares and sleepless nights, whimsical some people might think, but it's a fact. We wonder how many BRC members have had to put on a brave face, bite their tongue and swallow the lies people tell just in order to get a rabbit or rabbits out of dreadful conditions. It's not easy, and take it from me, many of the people who use this site have been there and done that. We need backup and we can't always rely on the likes of the S/RSPCA, in some areas of Britain even they don't care or won't help. We get soooo frustrated and sometimes have to turn our backs on situations like those because if we tried to do something about it, we'd get no help and probably get arrested!

and the meat rabbit trade has disappeared
Sadly, no it hasn't, there is a rabbit farm just up the road from where I live and a transporter comes and takes them away by the hundreds to be slaughtered in Wales. That too keeps me awake at night, breaking my heart crying. But I have to live with that, that's the way I am.

I believe it is always wrong to generalise. Yes, there are bad show-breeders, but there are also many bad pet owners, who leave a neglected creature to die in a tiny poorly made hutch. I agree, this is why we are trying to do something about it. Rescuers and reputable breeders need to get together and get something done about it.

Rescuing is also not a profession for us, it is something done from the heart. None of us make a profit, indeed all of us make a loss. Most make sure all of our 'rescues' are spayed and neutered, and vaccinated prior to rehoming. We are constantly depending on donations and fundraising to make ends meet.

I understand and respect what you say Sue, but the above is what I see from my angle as a rescuer.

Tamsin

18-08-2004, 11:48 PM

I've just poped the questions on rings in a new topic - http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=170

Tam

bluebunny

19-08-2004, 12:04 AM

Just found this on a free ads web site
http://www.findit.co.uk/pets/rabbits/1336469.htm

Adele

19-08-2004, 08:38 AM

Blue Bunny I have just emailed the person advertising to see whether we can offer the Angora a home.....she could be bonded with Bear who is arriving soon, and live as house bunnies :D
I hope I receive a reply :wink:

bunnyhuggger

19-08-2004, 08:49 AM

Dear MAmmy Adele,

I hop yu git hur coz i d lick to met hur to, i ned sum budy t do mi har, mammy here iz gud bt shee dont lik it flat lick gurl bunz do.

lot of kises
BeAr

PS mam sez : Bless you Adele, a true Guardian Angel!!!!!

bluebunny

19-08-2004, 09:47 AM

Oh good luck adele she just looked a fluff ball!

bunnytales

19-08-2004, 11:54 AM

Howdie Folks

Loads of brill replies on this hot topic and positive interesting news - I just posted to Tams re Breeder questions regarding Charter and Regulation and it was encouraging to read the details of how strict the BRC can be.

I'd be interested to hear more regarding this area - such as how do younger members join and what procedures are carried out to ensure youngsters becoming breeders have a level of health knowledge etc, are there any checks carried out by the BRC which looks into how particularly younger folks intend to fund health and welfare for the bunnies during and after the breeding periods - I know that at 14 I hadn't a penny to my name let alone be able to fund Veterinary bills etc -

I am finding all the replies really useful and I think there are many areas for further discussion which could provide some positive benefit for bunny welfare - I know Rexy mentioned the School visits - I think has real potential - both for promoting Rescues and Breeders - some children may like to consider an older bunny which is already vaccinated and spayed - some may prefer the cuddly bunny and buy from a Breeder or petshop but it opens the choice more and gives an opportunity for a Rescue Bunn.

As a result of Rexy's post I'm really looking forward to going to my first Bunny Show - I am bit apprehensive I've got to say but I feel its important to keep an open mind on all areas.

Over and out Folks.

Rexy bexy

19-08-2004, 03:29 PM

hi bunnytales,
well about 85% of junior breeders and exibators already have parents, grandparents that show and breed or used to, if not the rest has support from there parents like me my mom was very supportive and hepled me alot i also asked breeders for advice and when i joined i had a a folder full of info. i dont know any junior who hasnt had help off another breeder or been aproched by one and given advice.
a older breeder alway says to me if there is a prob to just ring him, and i always keep in touch with him as he like to know how i get on as we breed and show the same breed and colour and my frinend and her mom have supoted me alot by lending there bucks and helped me with any probs i had
becky

cashmincal

19-08-2004, 04:49 PM

Hello there

My Dad although not a breeder himself has supported me. I have a number of contacts that I can contact if I need any advice on various matters. As Bexy has said, many BRC Juniors have plenty of support from friends and family and DO NOT breed just because it seems a good idea at the time to get a litter of kits. Most breeders including myself spend a lot of time with their rabbits, handling them, cleaning them etc. My rabbits also have various toys that they play with.

Bunnytales and anyone else that is going to visit Walsall show, I hope you have a good time there! We all have one thing in common here though, our love and interest of rabbits.

Clare

bunnytales

19-08-2004, 06:16 PM

Hi Rexy and Cashmincal :)

Thanks for you really informative replies - I must admit I'm learning all the time and it's really great the you have joined the Forum - I guess many Breeders would feel a little intimidated by the idea of chatting to sooooo many welfare kinda folks - but your doing a great job.

I never even thought that parents and friends, relatives might be there for support for you and thats great - I guess with Veterinary costs being so high (as we all know) - its good to have folks around that can lend a hand.

I think the real danger is for folks so besotted by our bunnies is that you can tend to judge all breeders the same - I personally feel that it would be better if all bunny purchases were made through a well regulated network of both Rescue Centres and good, reputable breeders.

Cashmincal - I'm interested in how you guage how many bunnies you should breed - is it kinda supply on demand - you mention that you do not breed just because it seems a good idea at the time and this is a brilliant statement - not one I would have thought would come from someone breeding rabbits!! - See Girlies - I'm definately still learning!!

Thanks both for your replies.

cashmincal

19-08-2004, 06:50 PM

Hiya there

I don't really sell my Cashmere Lops only very rarely to be honest and normally to people that I know. I don't breed to many Cashmere Lops and have 1 - 2 litters per year and than only if I have room for them. Although I am not a Junior anymore, I was one a couple of years ago, so understand the Junior Fancy side.

Clare

Bob

19-08-2004, 11:14 PM

Rexy bexy

20-08-2004, 12:43 AM

hi,
just thought i would post some pics of some top class show angoras as i know how much u lot like pics of bunnies well feast ur eyes on these

http://www.angoras.co.uk/nacmay04.htm

becky

Dorothy

21-08-2004, 12:32 AM

Well, what a great discusion and so good to hear opinions from all sides.

I am in the unfortunate position of only having seen one BRC breeders rabbits. I asked if I could visit and was appalled at the conditions. The Breeder in question is elderly and not awaire of new ideas regarding the keeping of rabbits. The rabbits were stacked in rows several cages high. The cages were wood, about 2' by 2' square with wire racks to sit on. Barely enough room to move. I have never seen so many flies, they were hanging from several sticky fly papers and buzzing around. The rabbits had no runs and were kept permanently in thier cages unless going to a show. This is the kind of place that will give other breeders a bad name. I am sure now that this is not the way most BRC Breeders keep their rabbits. I have often wondered though since that visit how this breeder can get away with these conditions. Is it that she would have to be reported by a fellow BRC Breeder. Are individual breeders monitored in any way by the BRC as regards conditions. I am sure the conditions would not be acceptable to those who have posted in this thread. The rabbits in question are Cashmere and are all sold privately and I have to say the advice given is good. It is just the conditions I had a problem with.

As bunnyhugger said, we as rescuers tend to only see one side of the rabbit world and unfortunately it is never the good side. So it is easy to become despondant. It is good to hear such positive input from BRC members and to hear how much care is taken with your rabbits. This is a very valuable discussion.

Bunnyboarding

21-08-2004, 12:29 PM

Many cashmere/longhaired breeders have to house their showable rabbits on wires to prevent their coat from being soiled/matted/spoilt which would obviously make them unshowable & the wool unusable.

From the rabbit's point of view i'm sure if it had to choose between being housed on small-ish wire floors (& clean) or being wet messy & smelly, it would prefer the first option.

This is another of those scenarios that could be open to misinterpretation.

Although old school breeders do not keep rabbits free range, etc, they have tried & tested methods of animal husbandry that have worked for them over many years.

As for flies, they get in anywhere where rabbits are housed & the fact she has used some form of fly-deterrent (basic as fly strips are) it shows she has taken some precautions.

Dorothy

21-08-2004, 04:54 PM

Hi Cheryl :D , I understand the use of wire flooring, I just feel concerned that these bunnies have no access for excercise at all, it seams such a boring exsistance and other breeders do talk about putting their rabbits in runs. They do seam in good health physicaly but I wonder about their mental wellbeing, having no stimulus. A big part of my day is making sure all the bunnies are adequatly exercised and it is very foriegn to me to see bunnies cooped up :( .

anon101

21-08-2004, 06:48 PM

"we would like to house check every one who has a bunnie from us, but we do not have the power to like the rspca,"

RE The above comment.

ANYBODY can go and do a homecheck There is no law as far as I am aware. The only person that can refuse a home check is the person being checked. If they refuse there should be cause for concern.

I personaly would homecheck everyhome a bun was going to before I let him/her go.

Louise

bunnytales

21-08-2004, 11:26 PM

Howdie Folks

This continues to be a difficult and ever changing thread for me regarding long haired breeds and today seems particularly apt in the scheme of things of the Rescue of Tilley.

Today I've been involved in probably my second rescue of bunnies for one reason or another but having today seen the difficulties that long haired breeds encounter I cannot think of a single reason that this particular breed should be sold to an inexperienced bunny person.

Tonight I have a bunny with a Beautiful Charecter sitting next door in my bedroom in need of lots of TLC to bring her back to the glory she quite rightly deserves (Super Women Adele - Ready for Action) - Please, Please - Show this breed through experienced breeders yes - sell them to inexperienced homes I think definately no - its a receipe for disaster.

Bunnies never cease to amaze me at their resiliance to situations and despite her plight I've had several nose nudges from Tilley and strong requests for nose rubs, such a beautiful bunny - Education, Education, Education - come on mad Forum Bunney Folk - lets think of a way out of this that will work - if only we could make it happen eh!! - I know Rescues see this situation time and time again and you must have a great strength in what you do to be able to cope with what you are presented with - you all deserve our utmost respect and support.

Thanks again to Kimberley who made it all happen.

Now I'm definately whacked and ready for sleep - where's that wine glass gone :wink:

Dorothy

22-08-2004, 01:38 AM

So glad to hear Tilly is safe with you tonight Lany. I have 5 rescued Angora Crossbreeds. Each one that came in had appaling problems with matted coats that required all of the coat to be clipped off. Each time I see one in this condition my heart sinks and you are right that they should not be sold as regular pets.
Education is the only key to stopping people wanting them as pets. Most people who see my bunnies, now with lovely coats, have to see the before pictures before they realise just how bad things can get for these bunnies in the wrong hands.
Can't wait to see pictures of Tilly after Adele's magic touch :D .

Bunnyboarding

22-08-2004, 01:59 AM

Hi there,

I actually bred & showed exhibition rabbits (the breeds on my signature below)but must say i really grew to dislike how some breeders kept their rabbits- as you say, Dorothy, lacking in space & no stimulus. I think having been an exhibitor & pet owner, i can sometimes see both sides of situations & reasons why rabbits are sometimes kept in a certain way that does not look appealing to the average pet owner, but i also agree that there are aspects that need improving.

I am sort of middle of the road now as there have been some aspects of the exhibition side of things that have really put me off over a period of time. There are still many rabbits kept as trophies in boring little hutches whilst you get people like me, that give them bigger cages, toys, let them out for exercise & generally appreciate them for what they are not how many prize cards they can win. (However, did you know that show rabbits cannot be left out in the sun as it bleaches their coats for example?)

I've never known so many people that can be your friend one moment then fall out with you because your rabbit has done well & they were showing another in the same class. I also know of people that have taken their rabbit home & culled it because it had not done well under the particular judge that day & to me all that says is ' this is no longer fun'. (I would NEVER cull an otherwise healthy creature, although trained to put to sleep sick animals through my job as vet nurse).

On the other hand there are breeders that are really good & more like pet owners. Obviously by the same token you get a lot of pet owners that are terrible so don't think anyone can say what's worse!

I now keep all of my rabbits (12 of them) as pets more than anything & not even sure that i will breed from them again (what i did breed was on a very minimal basis anyway) despite most of them being quality show rabbits.

I also have a a rescued dog, & two rescued cats (all previously neglected/sick/injured & i'd nursed them back to health) & this is what i consider priority over exhibiting rabbits. Have also had many rescued rabbits/cavies in the past.

My other pet hate are the people that approach you that want rabbits - some of them don't even get past the first phonecall as they sound so irresponsible. Others that seem like dream owners turn out to be a nightmare a few weeks down the line when they ring you & say something really annoying like they'd rather return a rabbit than pay out to get it neutered (which is what i advised in the first place!)as it is showing hormonal aggression for example.

I always take back rabbits if someone asks me to, no refund is available to these sort of people though!

All in all, i have encountered a very disposable attitude towards rabbits from pet owners & breeders alike!

Dorothy

22-08-2004, 02:17 AM

Well said Cheryl :D . I was going to edit my previous post but my computer is playing up at the momment :roll: . I could have just as easily spoken about some appaling rescues and sanctuaries out there. The truth is there are faults in all areas of rabbit ownership and education and changes in the law are what we realy need. Hopefully discusions such as this on the Forum will help begin to narrow the gap between all our different views and help us to find common solutions to the rabbit welfare problems.

bunnytales

22-08-2004, 09:24 AM

Hi Cheryl and Dorothy

I ready both your posts which are both really informative and I think your exactly right just as there are good Petowners, Breeders, Petstores etc - there are also many bad.

I'm feeling slightly better this morning by the way - you could probably tell from my post last night that I felt really disheartened after the Rescue but also pleased that the Brilliant Kimberley had found a great home for this bunny with Aunt Adele. After a few glasses of wine last night I'm feeling better and ready to battle on!

I had a lengthy conversation with my hubby last night as we sat having a glass of wine in the dark of our spare bedroom watching Tilley munch hay (sad individuals or what!!) - it seems that one of the main area of difficulty with the bunny apart from some of the more obvious such as lack of Education for buyers is that it is still very much seen as a low level kinda Meat anmimal - you can drive up many of the lanes around where I live and there a hundreds of wild bunnies - obviously some get run over by cars and this also seems the norm - most folks don't bat an eyelid to a bunny run over - as its only a rabbit. Birmingham main meat market sells rabbit as a meat. Henley in Arden animal market sells rabbits - I hasten to add I've never been to Henley Market as I understand folks have been trying hard for some time to get a ban on the small animal market there but from the information I have heard (so I have no verification folks) the main reason they cannot put a stop to it is that the rabbit is a meat animal and therefore not given the same classification as dogs and cats.

Petstores I really struggle with - I think there is just no way they give any consideration to the Future welfare of the bunny as all they are interested about is profit - they have a captured audiance - especially children and what better way to ensure they get fast profits but by placing a cute cuddly bunny on display and then pointing the customer in the direction of Hutches and all the accessory items. My personal opinion is that I think its going to be really difficult to persuade Petstores to better educate their staff when selling bunnies - after all in telling the customer that the bunny is going to cost £35/£50 to spay - depending if buck or doe - £50 ish in vaccinations - thats almost like talking the customer out of the sale - not many petstores are going to want to do this.

Its seems a uphill struggle sometimes - But without folks such as the great chums on this Forum the bunny would be much worse off as I think we just need to keep chipping away at issues and hopefully eventually it may just make a difference.

I'm off to give Tilly some breakfast before that Adele gets her mits on her - I know she'll be wizzing over here today as fast as her little legs can carry her so I'm going to make the most of what time I have left with this lovely Angora Lady!

Over and Out