Dead babies

Taka · Jul 30, 2016

So.. My rabbit gave birth to 10 kits, on july 27th. I checked the morning after, and everyone seemed to be fine. The next morning I found 4 of them dead; three in the bottom of the nest, and one in the corner of the nest. I checked the rest of the kits, and didn't notice anything wrong. Then the day after - which is today - I found yet another dead kit on the nest. That's 5 kits - half of the litter! There were no bite marks, or scratches, on any of them.
The doe doesn't seem stressed, and the nest she build seems great too. She's had one litter before this, which did just fine.

What could be wrong?

MightyMax · Jul 30, 2016

Taka said:
So.. My rabbit gave birth to 10 kits, on july 27th. I checked the morning after, and everyone seemed to be fine. The next morning I found 4 of them dead; three in the bottom of the nest, and one in the corner of the nest. I checked the rest of the kits, and didn't notice anything wrong. Then the day after - which is today - I found yet another dead kit on the nest. That's 5 kits - half of the litter! There were no bite marks, or scratches, on any of them.
The doe doesn't seem stressed, and the nest she build seems great too. She's had one litter before this, which did just fine.

What could be wrong?

Hello Taka and welcome to RU :wave:

I'm sorry to hear about your babies. That's really sad.

I don't know whether you intended to breed, or if this was an accidental litter, but either way you may find info in these links helpful:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?327923-Accidental-Litters-and-Taking-on-Babies

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...re-considering-breeding-then-please-read-this

This Forum is predominantly rescue based, so you won't find a lot of info about breeding rabbits here, but of course you're most welcome to stay

Jbun · Jul 30, 2016

Have you checked mom to make sure she is producing milk, and checked the kits every day to ensure they have fat bellies and are being fed? And make sure mom doesn't have mastitis.

Also, depending on the temperature where you live and where the kits are being kept, either make sure they aren't succumbing to heat stress if it is hot where they are, or if cold make sure they have enough of mom's fur in the nest to keep warm and that the nest is properly constructed to ensure the babies stay close together and don't get separated and chilled.

Jack's-Jane · Jul 31, 2016

Jbun said:
Have you checked mom to make sure she is producing milk, and checked the kits every day to ensure they have fat bellies and are being fed? And make sure mom doesn't have mastitis.

Also, depending on the temperature where you live and where the kits are being kept, either make sure they aren't succumbing to heat stress if it is hot where they are, or if cold make sure they have enough of mom's fur in the nest to keep warm and that the nest is properly constructed to ensure the babies stay close together and don't get separated and chilled.

Jbun has offered you good advice here. 10 kits is a very large litter and if it is the Doe's first litter then she simply may not have been able to cope

Whilst most people on this forum are not Breeders, please dont feel pushed away. You have come here for advice and some of us will try and offer what help we can or point you in the direction of sources of relevant help and information.

One of our members, Sky-O, has put together two very useful threads which you may want to look at.

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?327923-Accidental-Litters-and-Taking-on-Babies

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...re-considering-breeding-then-please-read-this

As I said, please dont feel that you are not welcome on here as the Forum is all about Rabbit Welfare, ALL Rabbits. I do hope that the remaining Kits survive x

Omi · Jul 31, 2016

I am very sorry about the dead babies. You've received some great advice and the only other thing to consider I think is whether this pregnancy was too soon after the previous one (you said she's had babies before), particularly if she's a young Mum and as Jack's Jane said, 10 kits is quite a lot.

I hope the other kits continue to thrive. Please let us know

Taka · Jul 31, 2016

Thanks for all the answers. I've read the links that were provided.
She had her first litter in march, so yes, it was probably too soon. She did build a great nest, and tried to feed them, but the kits kept getting more and more dehydrated.
Tonight one of them disappeard. I think she might have eaten it, because it died, or something. I've taken the last three inside, and bought a bottle and some milk replacer for kittens, and are now trying to bottle feed them. Two of them are heavily dehydrated, and I'm afraid one won't survive the evening, and the other the night. The other two seems to be in a better condition.

I've never tried this before, and I'm afraid of the odds. But I would hate myself for not even trying.

The second to the left is the one that I'm fearing the most for

13902788_10210444741219720_6814179829469101958_n_zpsopojaq76.jpg

When they're that dehydrated, what would be the best way to get them hydrated again?

Jack's-Jane · Jul 31, 2016

Taka said:
Thanks for all the answers. I've read the links that were provided.
She had her first litter in march, so yes, it was probably too soon. She did build a great nest, and tried to feed them, but the kits kept getting more and more dehydrated.
Tonight one of them disappeard. I think she might have eaten it, because it died, or something. I've taken the last three inside, and bought a bottle and some milk replacer for kittens, and are now trying to bottle feed them. Two of them are heavily dehydrated, and I'm afraid one won't survive the evening, and the other the night. The other two seems to be in a better condition.

I've never tried this before, and I'm afraid of the odds. But I would hate myself for not even trying.

The second to the left is the one that I'm fearing the most for

When they're that dehydrated, what would be the best way to get them hydrated again?

Is the Doe still producing milk ? If so you could try holding each kit to a nipple to try to get him/her to suckle. No milk replacer is ever going to be as nutricious as the Doe's milk. Hand rearing kits is so often unsuccessful, but if you cant get the Kits to suckle by holding them to the Doe then I can understand that you want to try hand rearing them.

This may be useful to read

http://cottontails-rescue.org.uk/health/hand-rearing/

Taka · Jul 31, 2016

Jack's-Jane said:
Is the Doe still producing milk ? If so you could try holding each kit to a nipple to try to get him/her to suckle. No milk replacer is ever going to be as nutricious as the Doe's milk. Hand rearing kits is so often unsuccessful, but if you cant get the Kits to suckle by holding them to the Doe then I can understand that you want to try hand rearing them.

This may be useful to read

http://cottontails-rescue.org.uk/health/hand-rearing/

She's producing a little, it seems. I've brought her inside to the kits, and she's letting them suckle, and is currently cleaning them too. Should I do this twice a day, as she would herself?
And what about the supplements?

One of the kits doesn't seem to be able to suckle. It starts kicking with its leg, and puts its mouth around the nipple, and that's it. It's too weak..

Sky-O · Jul 31, 2016

Welcome to the forum.

Yes, giving mum the opportunity to suckle will be worthwhile, and I would say do it more regularly than she would normally. I'm sure that you have increased her intake so that she has unlimited pellets, so I don't need to suggest that.

The only thing that also comes to mind is that the people I know who raise baby wildies use Esbilac (which is for puppies), as it is the closest to mum's milk. Cat replacements are not really suitable and, like with all milks that are not mum's milks, could do more harm than good. If you can get mum to feed them (or if you hold them to her and let them feed), that is far preferable.

How is mum in herself?

Jack's-Jane · Aug 1, 2016

Sky-O said:
Welcome to the forum.

Yes, giving mum the opportunity to suckle will be worthwhile, and I would say do it more regularly than she would normally. I'm sure that you have increased her intake so that she has unlimited pellets, so I don't need to suggest that.

The only thing that also comes to mind is that the people I know who raise baby wildies use Esbilac (which is for puppies), as it is the closest to mum's milk. Cat replacements are not really suitable and, like with all milks that are not mum's milks, could do more harm than good. If you can get mum to feed them (or if you hold them to her and let them feed), that is far preferable.

How is mum in herself?

So glad that you have seen this thread, your advice is invaluable

Taka, how are the Doe and Kits doing now ?

MightyMax · Aug 1, 2016

Taka said:
Thanks for all the answers. I've read the links that were provided.
She had her first litter in march, so yes, it was probably too soon. She did build a great nest, and tried to feed them, but the kits kept getting more and more dehydrated.
Tonight one of them disappeard. I think she might have eaten it, because it died, or something. I've taken the last three inside, and bought a bottle and some milk replacer for kittens, and are now trying to bottle feed them. Two of them are heavily dehydrated, and I'm afraid one won't survive the evening, and the other the night. The other two seems to be in a better condition.

I've never tried this before, and I'm afraid of the odds. But I would hate myself for not even trying.

The second to the left is the one that I'm fearing the most for

When they're that dehydrated, what would be the best way to get them hydrated again?

I'm glad you found the links I posted helpful :wave:

How are things with you all now Taka?

Taka · Aug 1, 2016

The doe is more or less herself. She doesn't have much milk, but she lets the kits suckle, when I give her a treat and place them under her. She doesn't give them much time, when she's in charge of the feeding, with no inference, so I find this solution to be the best. As Omi said, it might be that she had the litter too soon after the first one.

The kits are doing better today, but I'm still not certain they're going to make it.
The one I wasn't sure would survive the night DID survive, and is now able to move around just a bit. Yesterday it could barely move. But they're still heavily dehydrated, and two of them aren't able to get milk from the doe, so they're still getting the supplement.

Jack's-Jane · Aug 1, 2016

Taka said:
The doe is more or less herself. She doesn't have much milk, but she lets the kits suckle, when I give her a treat and place them under her. She doesn't give them much time, when she's in charge of the feeding, with no inference, so I find this solution to be the best. As Omi said, it might be that she had the litter too soon after the first one.

The kits are doing better today, but I'm still not certain they're going to make it.
The one I wasn't sure would survive the night DID survive, and is now able to move around just a bit. Yesterday it could barely move. But they're still heavily dehydrated, and two of them aren't able to get milk from the doe, so they're still getting the supplement.

What are you feeding the Doe and how much ?

Taka · Aug 1, 2016

Pellets. Around 150g normally, but unlimited right now. Also unlimited hay

This is how they look today

This is the two I'm most concerned about. However they seem more "alive" today.

whoopsabunny · Aug 1, 2016

Im new to babies, having had a surprise litter this morning! but from the previous pic to these they look a lot better

Jack's-Jane · Aug 1, 2016

Taka said:
Pellets. Around 150g normally, but unlimited right now. Also unlimited hay

This is how they look today

This is the two I'm most concerned about. However they seem more "alive" today.

Poor little mites

Are they Velveteen Lops ?

Is the Doe ever fed dark leafy greens ? These can help promote milk production in lactating Does. Obviously if she has never had greens before you would need to introduce them in very small amounts. Are the pellets Nursing/Growing Rabbit specific ? She needs a higher dietary protein intake at the moment. Is she eating her caecotrophs OK ? It is important for her to do so to optimise her metabolism of dietary nutrients.

Taka · Aug 1, 2016

They're standard French Lops. Just really dehydrated.

Yesterday the two in the last picture were really rough to the touch. It felt like sandpaper. Today they're soft, and has gotten more fur and color.

Well.. She had some lettuce today, and some dandelion leaves. She's used to eat greens.
The pellets are just.. Ordinary rabbit pellets. The crude protein is 16%.
She eats the caecotrophs. Nothing there.

Jack's-Jane · Aug 1, 2016

Taka said:
They're standard French Lops. Just really dehydrated.
Yesterday the two in the last picture were really rough to the touch. It felt like sandpaper. Today they're soft, and has gotten more fur and color.

Well.. She had some lettuce today, and some dandelion leaves. She's used to eat greens.
The pellets are just.. Ordinary rabbit pellets. The crude protein is 16%.
She eats the caecotrophs. Nothing there.

Try her on some dark greens (wash them well first)

You could also offer her some Readigrass (Freeze dried grass) which has a higher protein content than most hays

https://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/readigrass.html

Some Breeders also feed a few Barley Rings to increase a lactating Doe's dietary protein intake

http://www.dodsonandhorrell.com/product/barley-rings

Obviously any change in her diet needs to be done slowly to avoid GI tract problems.

Sky-O · Aug 1, 2016

For the kits that are dehydrated (if that's what they are), then you can boil some water and let it cool, and then just place it on their lips (not in their mouth), and let them lick it off. You can just use a clean fingertip to do this.

The more the doe eats the better. Get as much of her normal things as you can into her. By all means introduce new things, but obviously do it slowly because the last thing you want is for mum to be ill too. But let her eat as much grass, as much pellets, as much of everything she normally eats.

3 months is plenty long enough for a doe to recover, given in the wild they breed monthly. However, there is something not quite right going on.

JessBun · Aug 1, 2016

Taka said:
She doesn't give them much time, when she's in charge of the feeding, with no inference, so I find this solution to be the best.

That's because a doe's milk is very nutritious for kits hence why as someone else mentioned supplemented feeding is often not successful), and so generally will feed them about twice a day (can vary), for very short intervals (some as short as a couple minutes, some longer). They certainly do not feed them often, or for long periods of times - in honesty it sounds as if your doe is entirely normal in regards to her behaviour re suckling.

Kits are looking much better but certainly not as healthy as they should be at this stage (obviously the large kit is doing okay). Have you checked her 'nipples' at all? I wonder if there is an infection going on, which is effecting her and kits. How did she cope with her last litter (sorry if that's been addressed already)? If she had a few die from the last litter it's not a doe I'd ever breed again (not that I do, or would breed in the first place as most here wouldn't).

10 is a large litter, but in a healthy doe a runt or two dying off can be accepted, but having it whittled down to four is not normal. I recommend checking her nipples, and to be honest, I think she needs to go the vets for a check over.

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