E Cuniculi

Hi

We have a house rabbit, he's around 5 months old and he seems to have been pretty healthy up until now. Earlier on we were going in to his room to give him some veggies and we noticed he was losing his balance and just generally looked very unsteady on his feet. We got him into the vets straight away and they seemed pretty confident that it's E-cuniculi, and gave us a course of panacur to be given daily over the course of a month.

So we've had him home for the last 3 hours or so, made the enclosure as small as possible with his food and water in etc as per the vets suggestion. He's mostly been sitting still, occasionally going to have a little nibble of hay. the last hour or so (maybe earlier) he's started having what I thought were fits, basically he was totally still then he suddenly started flipping over in the cage, lasting about 30 seconds - a minute.

I was just hoping someone could tell me if they've been through the same thing with their rabbit, and if so can it be expected that they will have episodes like this, and how likely is it he will make a recovery given that we got him in pretty quickly.

We did actually just ring up the vets after these episodes started and they said it possibly wasn't a fit, more that he was trying to move and just kept falling over again, I'm still not sure though.

Many thanks
James

Hi James, E.C. can be complex to diagnose - treatment is usually Panacur & an anti-inflammatory such as Metacam. Supportive care & keeping your rabbit as stress free as possible is really important. Was your vet confident in ruling out ear infection as that can be confused with EC when bunnies have balance problems (that said he is very young)

I agree with your vet that these episodes are likely not to be fits but feeling very disorientated whilst trying to move around. Bunnies need so much TLC through this it can feel draining. My little bun couldn't balance enough to walk for about 5 weeks. We had to keep her clean, hand feed her water from a bottle (luckily she ate hay veg & herbs if they were close by) & change her bedding about 5 times a day. Restricting movement is important & keep bunny in a smalll padded area (I used a laundry hamper with towels on the base & rolled around the sides. So much washing - towels & bums!

So the happy news is despite having this really bad my little girl made steady progress after 5 weeks of going nowhere. Even when she recovered she retained a cheeky little head tilt & had a tendency to run in circles. But she was happy & lived a few more years.

Is your rabbit lop or uppy earred? I do feel its really important to get some metacam from your vet. Its useful in reducing the inflammatory aspect of vestibular disease thats causing your bunnies head to tilt.

Hi

Thanks so much for the response and I'm glad to hear your girl did manage to get through it.

That was our first thought too, about the ear infection. The vet did take his temperature however and it came up normal - I would guess that's enough to rule it out?

In regards to caring for him and keeping him stress free, is it really just a case of sitting with him lots and hand feeding him? Obviously the main concern is that he's eating/drinking enough - he has had a few bits of kale and hay tonight, he can't really drink too well since he can't keep his balance while standing over the bowl, perhaps we could try giving him water from a bottle like you did (he's never been one for the bottle though )

I'm glad to hear that it hopefully wasn't fits he was having though, it does make sense since all the poor little boy wants to do is come see us and he then panics when he loses his bearings. I think he's beginning to realise he can't get around too much.

Also, he is a mini lop rabbit. We're going to try and get some metacam tomorrow, really it's the worst possible time this could have happened on a sunday night.

Thanks again for the help, I'll try keep this updated with how he's doing in case anyone is interested.

Thanks
James

You're welcome Unfortunately I don't think taking temperature would differentiate between EC & ear infection . Frequently people go for a two pronged attack & also get antibiotics. This allows the panacur to tackle the problem if its EC, antibiotics if its infection & metacam helps both. Maybe worth discussing with your vet when you hopefully get metacam sorted. I honestly have no idea how young a rabbit can be to have ear problems though. EC can be passed on in utero. Yep I'd say a water bottle sounds like it will be necessary for a while. Water soaked veggies in the meantime or syringe feed some water. I'd monitor poo & wee output carefully. Tempt with whatever food you can. Those fibrafirst sticks could work, herbs, nice hay.

Do let us know how he gets on. I'll be rooting for you. If you search EC threads here you'll get more info whilst everyone here is too busy snoozing to reply :lol:

PS any other buns you have would need panacur too

JamesD said:

Hi

Thanks so much for the response and I'm glad to hear your girl did manage to get through it.

That was our first thought too, about the ear infection. The vet did take his temperature however and it came up normal - I would guess that's enough to rule it out?

In regards to caring for him and keeping him stress free, is it really just a case of sitting with him lots and hand feeding him? Obviously the main concern is that he's eating/drinking enough - he has had a few bits of kale and hay tonight, he can't really drink too well since he can't keep his balance while standing over the bowl, perhaps we could try giving him water from a bottle like you did (he's never been one for the bottle though )

I'm glad to hear that it hopefully wasn't fits he was having though, it does make sense since all the poor little boy wants to do is come see us and he then panics when he loses his bearings. I think he's beginning to realise he can't get around too much.

Also, he is a mini lop rabbit. We're going to try and get some metacam tomorrow, really it's the worst possible time this could have happened on a sunday night.

Thanks again for the help, I'll try keep this updated with how he's doing in case anyone is interested.

Thanks
James

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Hi James and welcome to RU

Sorry to hear about your little one.

As J&B has already said, this could well be down to an inner ear infection, which would definitely affect the balance. It isn't diagnosed by temperature, but by skull X-rays under sedation.

Treating with Panacur for EC and including Metacam is a good start. Metacam will help with pain of ear infection (if it's that) and also help minimise any brain swelling and so diminish the effects of EC.

I also agree that these don't sound at all like fits, but attempts for him to regain his balance. Occasionally these things right themselves after a few days, but you should begin care immediately so's to tackle the issue - antibiotics, preferably injectable (Baytril will not penetrate sufficiently if this is ear infection) should be started straight away, in my opinion.

Here's some reading on the differences between EC and ear infections:


http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/di...on-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/tr...on-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/di...na-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/di...na-in-rabbits/


Good luck and keep posting!! xx

Thanks so much for all the information and kind responses, I really do appreciate it. It's just so horrible seeing a bunny unwell, or any pet really!

I didn't realise ear infection was so easily misdiagnosed, we'll definitely see about getting him in for another check. We couldn't get him to our regular vets this evening due to the time, they're usually very good there though. Funnily enough he was scheduled to go in there tomorrow to be neutered anyway! He's actually hopping around a lot more freely at the moment, scavenging for nuggets/leaves and he's also managed to drink from his bowl, perhaps he'll have spells when he's feeling worse?

Max - those links aren't actually working :S! It's fine though, I managed to find the articles you linked through searching, will definitely have a read now. I won't be getting much sleep tonight anyway!

We don't have another bunny at the moment, we were going to be getting him a friend sometime in the next 2 months though, I sincerely hope that will still be the case, couldn't bear for anything to happen to this little boy. Only had him for 2 and a bit months and it already feels like he's a member of the family

We do have a cat, guinea pigs and rats, and I did read they can also pick this up (assuming that is what it is) any ideas if that's something that's likely to happen?

Thanks
James

JamesD said:

Thanks so much for all the information and kind responses, I really do appreciate it. It's just so horrible seeing a bunny unwell, or any pet really!

I didn't realise ear infection was so easily misdiagnosed, we'll definitely see about getting him in for another check. We couldn't get him to our regular vets this evening due to the time, they're usually very good there though. Funnily enough he was scheduled to go in there tomorrow to be neutered anyway! He's actually hopping around a lot more freely at the moment, scavenging for nuggets/leaves and he's also managed to drink from his bowl, perhaps he'll have spells when he's feeling worse?

Max - those links aren't actually working :S! It's fine though, I managed to find the articles you linked through searching, will definitely have a read now. I won't be getting much sleep tonight anyway!

We don't have another bunny at the moment, we were going to be getting him a friend sometime in the next 2 months though, I sincerely hope that will still be the case, couldn't bear for anything to happen to this little boy. Only had him for 2 and a bit months and it already feels like he's a member of the family

We do have a cat, guinea pigs and rats, and I did read they can also pick this up (assuming that is what it is) any ideas if that's something that's likely to happen?

Thanks
James

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These are the correct links, incase anyone else reading this thread needs them :

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/diagnosis-of-otitis-externa-media-and-interna-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/treatment-of-otitis-externa-media-and-interna-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/diagnosing-encephalitozoon-cuniculi-infection-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/treatment-of-encephalitozoon-cuniculi-infection-in-rabbits/



Other species can be vectors of EC which is transmitted via spores excreted in an infected Rabbit's urine. Good hygiene to prevent the ingestion of any urine contaminated food/hay etc. The environment occupied by the Rabbit needs to be bleach cleaned (using a 10% bleach solution) on days 21 and 28 of panacur treatment. Areas that cannot be bleach cleaned can be steam cleaned. Steam will eradicate EC spores.

I hope that your Rabbit will make a good recovery.

Jack's-Jane said:

Other species can be vectors of EC which is transmitted via spores excreted in an infected Rabbit's urine. Good hygiene to prevent the ingestion of any urine contaminated food/hay etc. The environment occupied by the Rabbit needs to be bleach cleaned (using a 10% bleach solution) on days 21 and 28 of panacur treatment. Areas that cannot be bleach cleaned can be steam cleaned. Steam will eradicate EC spores.

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Aha, thanks for the tip, will definitely do that. There shouldn't be too much risk of it being transmitted to the others then since they're all in separate rooms and we keep it all very clean.

Just an update on how he's doing, he seems to actually be acting like himself again, no wobbling, he's eating, drinking and desparate to get out of the confined space he's in now! It's so bizarre though, he looked really bad one minute and the next he looked a totally different rabbit, you wouldn't know there was anything up. He's been seemingly fine and not in any distress for a few hours now, although I obviously don't want to take anything for granted.

Fingers crossed he'll be alright though, still going to talk to the vets today, but hopefully it's a good sign.

JamesD said:

Thanks so much for all the information and kind responses, I really do appreciate it. It's just so horrible seeing a bunny unwell, or any pet really!

I didn't realise ear infection was so easily misdiagnosed, we'll definitely see about getting him in for another check. We couldn't get him to our regular vets this evening due to the time, they're usually very good there though. Funnily enough he was scheduled to go in there tomorrow to be neutered anyway! He's actually hopping around a lot more freely at the moment, scavenging for nuggets/leaves and he's also managed to drink from his bowl, perhaps he'll have spells when he's feeling worse?

Max - those links aren't actually working :S! It's fine though, I managed to find the articles you linked through searching, will definitely have a read now. I won't be getting much sleep tonight anyway!

We don't have another bunny at the moment, we were going to be getting him a friend sometime in the next 2 months though, I sincerely hope that will still be the case, couldn't bear for anything to happen to this little boy. Only had him for 2 and a bit months and it already feels like he's a member of the family

We do have a cat, guinea pigs and rats, and I did read they can also pick this up (assuming that is what it is) any ideas if that's something that's likely to happen?

Thanks
James

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Hi there

These should work this time! Computer glitch I think

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/diagnosis-of-otitis-externa-media-and-interna-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/treatment-of-otitis-externa-media-and-interna-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/treatment-of-otitis-externa-media-and-interna-in-rabbits/

http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/treatment-of-encephalitozoon-cuniculi-infection-in-rabbits/

I've checked these links and they should work OK this time.

Wishing you loads of good luck xx

i had a similar episode with one of my rabbits, exact symptoms you have described and got prescribed panacur and metacam. We did hear a loud bang though straight before the symptoms started, mentioning this because when i took him the vets the next morning (it happened late at night too) They said he could have had a bad bang on the head and had concussion. He was already loads better the following day and the vet said it would be very unlikely that the panecur would work so quickly for EC but to carry on with the course anyway. Could he have banged his head at all. I would give the entire course of panecur because he needs it anyway. I bought it for 8 rabbits and they all had the course. Hope he is doing better soon. xx

willow and squiggles said:

i had a similar episode with one of my rabbits, exact symptoms you have described and got prescribed panacur and metacam. We did hear a loud bang though straight before the symptoms started, mentioning this because when i took him the vets the next morning (it happened late at night too) They said he could have had a bad bang on the head and had concussion. He was already loads better the following day and the vet said it would be very unlikely that the panecur would work so quickly for EC but to carry on with the course anyway. Could he have banged his head at all. I would give the entire course of panecur because he needs it anyway. I bought it for 8 rabbits and they all had the course. Hope he is doing better soon. xx

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It's entirely possible he could have hit his head, being a young rabbit he does run around and get extremely hyper a lot of the time (all of the time....). The vet did check for any signs of that though and found nothing, still can't rule it out though. We're getting him in to be seen again by our regular vets this afternoon, hopefully we can get a more concrete diagnosis then.

Did your rabbit ever have any more episodes like this or was that the end of it by the way?

Its common for EC symptoms to come & go. Some rabbits never seem to relapse though after the one period of illness. Its great your boy is looking so much better...brilliant news & I think an excellent sign. Severity of attacks & duration varies so much between rabbits

That's great to know then! Just taken him to the vets, they done a really thorough check of his eyes and ears and seemed pretty confident in ruling out an ear infection. They agreed it is probably EC he has, but given how good he looks now they seem pretty sure we've caught it early enough and there shouldn't be any lasting problems, which is brilliant! We'll still give him the course of Panacur, but given he doesn't seem to be in any pain we won't give him any anti inflammatory medicine.

It's just a case now of seeing how he is and hoping the symptoms don't come back. The vet also didn't rule out a concussion, but given the nature of EC it's still best to continue with the treatment.

So happy that he's seemingly on the mend, thanks so much for all the support everyone and will definitely keep you updated on how he gets on.

JamesD said:

That's great to know then! Just taken him to the vets, they done a really thorough check of his eyes and ears and seemed pretty confident in ruling out an ear infection. They agreed it is probably EC he has, but given how good he looks now they seem pretty sure we've caught it early enough and there shouldn't be any lasting problems, which is brilliant! We'll still give him the course of Panacur, but given he doesn't seem to be in any pain we won't give him any anti inflammatory medicine.

It's just a case now of seeing how he is and hoping the symptoms don't come back. The vet also didn't rule out a concussion, but given the nature of EC it's still best to continue with the treatment.

So happy that he's seemingly on the mend, thanks so much for all the support everyone and will definitely keep you updated on how he gets on.

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Well done, this is all good to hear

With EC, the parasite affects and can cause inflammation in the brain. That's why Metacam is prescribed. Not for pain, but for it's anti-inflammatory properties. In order to minimise the risk of swelling and therefore lasting neurological damage.

I think I said this previously - apologies if so

Hmm, do you think it might be a good idea to still try get him some then? I know it reduces the swelling but if he's seemingly happy and comfortable does that suggest he's not experiencing any swelling/inflammation, or is this something that won't necessarily cause him any discomfort while it's happening? Obviously we just want him to be happy and have as little lasting damage as possible so if you think getting metacam would still be the best course of action it's definitely something we'll consider.

Also for those whose rabbits who have gone through this, did you happen to notice anything different in your rabbit in the days/weeks leading up to the symptoms presenting themselves? We did think our boy was breathing rather quickly, not sure if that was anything related to this.

Psychological & physical stress (illness, predator in their space, travel, house move, bonding) can set things off. My bunny I spoke of earlier in the thread who had it got symptoms come on within a day of losing her bonded sister. One of my current three got head tilt the second time she was returned to rescue & then diagnosed with EC in the sense she had a test showing previous infection but inactive. She is a nervy girl who hates change. I'm always wary around events I imagine my bunnies might find stressful. As I understand it symptoms typically come on really quickly.

JamesD said:

Hmm, do you think it might be a good idea to still try get him some then? I know it reduces the swelling but if he's seemingly happy and comfortable does that suggest he's not experiencing any swelling/inflammation, or is this something that won't necessarily cause him any discomfort while it's happening? Obviously we just want him to be happy and have as little lasting damage as possible so if you think getting metacam would still be the best course of action it's definitely something we'll consider.

Also for those whose rabbits who have gone through this, did you happen to notice anything different in your rabbit in the days/weeks leading up to the symptoms presenting themselves? We did think our boy was breathing rather quickly, not sure if that was anything related to this.

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I'm not a vet, but I believe even a vet wouldn't have the answers to all of your questions! As Frances Harcourt Brown, rabbit specialist, said in her lecture a few weeks ago - there are more questions than answers with E.C. If she says that, then what hope is there for the rest of us

I can only repeat what I provided in the links above:

Therapy should be aimed at reducing inflammation and blocking spore formation and proliferation, as well as managing associated disease and severe neurological signs. To date, a handful of controlled studies have evaluated the efficacy of treatment in E cuniculi-infected rabbits

Systemic NSAIDs, such as meloxicam, may be safely used as an alternative to treat inflammation.

It really is a matter to discuss with your vet, but please make sure your vet is well informed about E.C. It cannot be diagnosed by looking at a rabbit, or even by clinical signs, often. Very difficult.

Ongoing good luck to you all

joey&boo said:

Psychological & physical stress (illness, predator in their space, travel, house move, bonding) can set things off. My bunny I spoke of earlier in the thread who had it got symptoms come on within a day of losing her bonded sister. One of my current three got head tilt the second time she was returned to rescue & then diagnosed with EC in the sense she had a test showing previous infection but inactive. She is a nervy girl who hates change. I'm always wary around events I imagine my bunnies might find stressful. As I understand it symptoms typically come on really quickly.

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All we can really think of in terms of stress is the heat, it's been a bit warmer lately and as far as I know bunnies can't handle heat all that well. We've tried to keep his room nice and cool but the trouble is when he gets going he REALLY gets going, charging about the room going absolutely mental - overheating himself in the process! We'll also be moving in a month so that's going to be a worry....

Haha sorry about all the questions! It really is frustrating all the uncertainty around EC. We'll just see how he is this week and how he gets on with the panacur, monitoring him closely.

Just thought I'd let you know how he's getting on now, we decided to take him into the living room tonight so he could have a run around - he was absolutely loving it! Binkying about like crazy, circling us, licking us and all his usual behaviours! He's had 3 lots of panacur now, we managed to give it to him on a bit of kale so that should be pretty easy to do from now on.

Another annoying thing about all this is that we were hoping to have him neutered by now to hopefully quell some bad behaviour, but obviously we can't get him in until he's finished his treatment!

JamesD said:

Just thought I'd let you know how he's getting on now, we decided to take him into the living room tonight so he could have a run around - he was absolutely loving it! Binkying about like crazy, circling us, licking us and all his usual behaviours! He's had 3 lots of panacur now, we managed to give it to him on a bit of kale so that should be pretty easy to do from now on.

Another annoying thing about all this is that we were hoping to have him neutered by now to hopefully quell some bad behaviour, but obviously we can't get him in until he's finished his treatment!

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It really sounds like he's coping OK at the moment, which is good news

Yes pity about the neutering, but all in due course. What's this 'bad behaviour' you speak of?
Is any rabbit really bad?