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I really feel like I'm losing Noah...positive update 8th October

C

catherine09

Mama Doe
and I'm not sure how to cope with it all :cry:

Noah was diagnosed with congestive heart failure in December 2015 by John Chitty in response to continued weight loss and rapid breathing. He was put on Frusol, Sulfatrim and Tramadol which initially really seemed to work and he put on 200gms in the first 2 weeks, however his weight gain then stabilised and his blood tests (which were every 2 weeks) showed deterioration of his kidneys, suspected due to the Frusol.

2 weeks ago Noah went for his checkup and is kidney parameters were worrying and so John put him on Fortekor but also reduced the Frusol dose from 0.4mls 2x daily to 0.2mls 2 x daily. On Friday he went for his follow up checkup and it wasn't good - he lost 200gms in 2 weeks, which is nearly all the weight he had steadily been putting on since Dec and his kidneys were much the same. He was prescribed another heart drug - can't remember the name at the moment, so he now is 4x medications AM and 5x medications PM.

Up until now he had been bouncy and his usual cheeky self, and a absolute pig when it comes to food. Over the weekend since he has been on this new drug he just hasn't been as interested in his food at all. He dived into the carrot tops yesterday and then ignored the pellets, and this morning ate a few pellets but then hopped off and sat whilst the others hovered them up, which is so worrying as it's not like him. I'm not concerned about stasis - he is eating hay - but I'm starting to feel like he is just fed up with all this intensive handling and almost started to give up. When I go up there to give him his meds he has started just sitting with his head down - he is just waiting for me to pick him up and give him his meds and it's really sad as he's stopped running to see me every time I go up as he knows what is coming :(

He is going back to see John on Friday and I think it's really going to be an important visit this time. If he has continued to lose weight (which I'm sure he will) despite this new heart drug I am really not sure what John can do. If Noah is starting to become uninterested in food/free range etc then what can I do? It's just so sad to see - I can tell he is just so fed up at the moment :(

I can't bear the thought of losing him. He is only 2.5 years old. I absolutely adore him, he is so special to me.
 
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i'm really sorry to hear this :( i'm sorry i don't have any advice but i will be thinking of you both. hopefully john will have some more ideas x
 
It is a horrible position to be in, when you are doing absolutely everything you can but it feels to no avail. I suppose all you can do is see what JC says on Friday and be guided by him.:(
 
catherine09 said:
and I'm not sure how to cope with it all :cry:

Noah was diagnosed with congestive heart failure in December 2015 by John Chitty in response to continued weight loss and rapid breathing. He was put on Frusol, Sulfatrim and Tramadol which initially really seemed to work and he put on 200gms in the first 2 weeks, however his weight gain then stabilised and his blood tests (which were every 2 weeks) showed deterioration of his kidneys, suspected due to the Frusol.

2 weeks ago Noah went for his checkup and is kidney parameters were worrying and so John put him on Fortekor but also reduced the Frusol dose from 0.4mls 2x daily to 0.2mls 2 x daily. On Friday he went for his follow up checkup and it wasn't good - he lost 200gms in 2 weeks, which is nearly all the weight he had steadily been putting on since Dec and his kidneys were much the same. He was prescribed another heart drug - can't remember the name at the moment, so he now is 4x medications AM and 5x medications PM.

Up until now he had been bouncy and his usual cheeky self, and a absolute pig when it comes to food. Over the weekend since he has been on this new drug he just hasn't been as interested in his food at all. He dived into the carrot tops yesterday and then ignored the pellets, and this morning ate a few pellets but then hopped off and sat whilst the others hovered them up, which is so worrying as it's not like him. I'm not concerned about stasis - he is eating hay - but I'm starting to feel like he is just fed up with all this intensive handling and almost started to give up. When I go up there to give him his meds he has started just sitting with his head down - he is just waiting for me to pick him up and give him his meds and it's really sad as he's stopped running to see me every time I go up as he knows what is coming :(

He is going back to see John on Friday and I think it's really going to be an important visit this time. If he has continued to lose weight (which I'm sure he will) despite this new heart drug I am really not sure what John can do. If Noah is starting to become uninterested in food/free range etc then what can I do? It's just so sad to see - I can tell he is just so fed up at the moment :(

I can't bear the thought of losing him. He is only 2.5 years old. I absolutely adore him, he is so special to me.
Click to expand...

When a Rabbit is in CHF they may go off hard feed as the condition progresses. The enlarged heart can eventually put pressure on surrounding organs and the stomach. So the Rabbit may feel very full after just a small intake of hard feed. They often find eating hay and grass OK and also some fresh herbs and veg. Also, with secondary renal issues a Rabbit can feel a bit off from time to time. Both CHF and CRF will eventually cause lethargy. I am sorry that it seems that Noah may not now be doing so well. But in my experience Rabbits in CHF can be very 'up and down' towards the latter stages of their illness. They can have better days. It is really a case of what the individual Rabbit can cope with regards to all the hands on care and also if they are still having more 'good days' than 'bad days'

Is the new drug that JC prescribed called Vetmedin (pimobendan) ?
 
Jack's-Jane said:
When a Rabbit is in CHF they may go off hard feed as the condition progresses. The enlarged heart can eventually put pressure on surrounding organs and the stomach. So the Rabbit may feel very full after just a small intake of hard feed. They often find eating hay and grass OK and also some fresh herbs and veg. Also, with secondary renal issues a Rabbit can feel a bit off from time to time. Both CHF and CRF will eventually cause lethargy. I am sorry that it seems that Noah may not now be doing so well. But in my experience Rabbits in CHF can be very 'up and down' towards the latter stages of their illness. They can have better days. It is really a case of what the individual Rabbit can cope with regards to all the hands on care and also if they are still having more 'good days' than 'bad days'

Is the new drug that JC prescribed called Vetmedin (pimobendan) ?
Click to expand...

The thing is Jane, him eating hay and grass is just going to mean he drops weight even faster. He is a giant too so needs more pellets than 'normal buns'. I will have to up his veg intake and hope it doesn't have too much of a negative effect on his tummy. I did consider syringe feeding but that's just not a long term option. I am praying this other heart drug helps to restabilise his heart again.

I think it may be that. It comes in tablet form and is liver flavoured (yucky for poor Noah).
 
catherine09 said:
The thing is Jane, him eating hay and grass is just going to mean he drops weight even faster. He is a giant too so needs more pellets than 'normal buns'. I will have to up his veg intake and hope it doesn't have too much of a negative effect on his tummy. I did consider syringe feeding but that's just not a long term option. I am praying this other heart drug helps to restabilise his heart again.

I think it may be that. It comes in tablet form and is liver flavoured (yucky for poor Noah).
Click to expand...

Have you tried giving him Critical Care in a bowl ? Or even making his pellets into a mush ? If they are hydrated BEFORE he eats them they wont swell up in his tummy and make him feel even more full. You could add some Veg puree into the mix too.

Avipro Plus, a prebiotic, can be very useful for Rabbits who are struggling to maintain their weight. Prebiotics can help the Rabbits metabolise nutrients more efficiently. It really helped Morse with weight maintainance as his heart disease progressed
 
Jack's-Jane said:
Have you tried giving him Critical Care in a bowl ? Or even making his pellets into a mush ? If they are hydrated BEFORE he eats them they wont swell up in his tummy and make him feel even more full. You could add some Veg puree into the mix too.

Avipro Plus, a prebiotic, can be very useful for Rabbits who are struggling to maintain their weight. Prebiotics can help the Rabbits metabolise nutrients more efficiently. It really helped Morse with weight maintainance as his heart disease progressed
Click to expand...

Thanks Jane. I have previously tried feeding him critical care separately to the others but he won't eat if he is separated from them. I might try again. I'd rather not feed it to the three of them as the other two will probably get a bit portly if they have lots plus I'm not sure how it would impact their guts. I have some Avipro plus here anyway so I will try him with a bit of a mix later on and see how he takes it. When I was weight maintaining Skye she was a dream as I would lock her in a carrier and she would munch away on a CC mix until she was done but Noah starts eating then stops and tries to find a way to get out and be with the others.
 
Sorry to hear that Noah is struggling :( my Flopsy too had CHF and in the later stages of the disease, he became more difficult with feeding. He always wanted to be with Lily, he didn't like eating alone, which wasn't easy to do. He also didn't eat hay so I had to feed him up to 4 times a day with protexin pro-fibre, rolled oats, mature SS. Towards the end he was having to have critical care as many times as he could possibly have. He was always a good patient, the evening he refused his medication and food, I knew that was it.

It's a very tough situation to be in, I hope that Noah can pick up a bit. You're doing everything you can and I know you'll do the right thing for him.
 
Thanks for everyones support. I am pleased to report that last night I soaked Noah's pellets and mixed in Avipro Plus and he gobbled the whole lot up :) the only problem is he won't eat it on his own so I have to sit and guard him from the other two as they finished their tea very quickly and wanted to move in on his :roll:
 
Only just read this. So sad to read about Noah.

When I was trying to maintain Apple's weight I used to feed carrots, oats and a little wholemeal bread. It was difficult keeping it away from the other buns though and she wasn't in CHF so it's not the same.

My Bridge Buns Cherry and Hovis used to run away from me because I had to be so hands on with them both and I tried to give them treats at other times so they didn't always associate me with syringes I stuck in them or fed them from. It was horrid though to see them scared of me but as they were both indoor it was easier to spend time with them not 'doing things' to them.

Sending lots and lots of vibes for Noah xxxxxx
 
Sorry to hear about Noah. Lots of love to you both.

I had a lot of success with soaking their pellets in water and even in apple juice for bunnies that were receiving palliative care and I didn't mind what they ate already as long as they ate something. Sometimes they wanted a different kind of pellet too. I had a giant who only wanted dwarf bunny pellets (Selective mini nuggets only) AND soaked in apple juice too. He was terminally ill and in the last stages so I didn't mind what he had. He also liked grated apple mixed with finely shredded carrot tips. I do experiment until I find something they want. Re. fibre and hay, try Nature's Touch. It's the mix of finely shredded hay, dried veg, tree leaves, little twigs and nuggets, everything. And all of mind love it, but it's especially good when they are struggling to eat and lose energy as it's such a variety all in one bowl and all in small pieces. You can get it from PaH at £6 a bag. Yes, and try different nuggets. I know they recommend introducing gradually but I have always mixed all sorts of nuggets and never had a problem. Might be worth a go.

I hope you and your vet manage to find something that works. Enjoy your time together. That's the main thing. Xx
 
So a little update on Noah;

He is still with us, although has deteriorated visually in weight. I have not weighed him recently as to be perfectly honest it's not going to be a good weight and I'd rather not know :(

He is still as enthusiastic around food as ever, gobbles up his dinner and loves his hay but nothing is really having an impact on his weight.

He had an ECG at Antons last week so I am hoping to discuss the results with John this week to see if there's anything else we can try for him. He is already on all the drugs they can give him and he is still losing weight and struggling with his breathing (ie he can breath normally but he puts his head up and 'pants' to try and get as much oxygen into his system as possible as his heart is not pumping it around properly). When he was first put on each drug combo this stopped but then returned after a couple of weeks.

I am going away for a couple of weeks and so the trio are going up for their holidays at Helens (The Duchess on here), Noah couldn't be in better hands whilst I am away but I will still worry about him. Poor lad is on 4x medications in the morning and 5x at night. He takes them 90% of the time without any fuss, such a good boy :love:

I dread the day he leaves me :cry: it's not fair he is 2.5 I should have had many more years with him :(
 
:( poor Noah. Hope the ECG results show something else you can try.
Hope you enjoy your time away, are you going anywhere nice? Sounds like he'll be in very good hands xxx
 
Many vibes for little Noah. Its good to hear he is eating well even if he can't gain weight. I'll be rooting for him at his vets appointment that something else can be tried with more sustainable results. Have a fab time away, I hope you can relax knowing your boy will be in such good hands
 
I am very sad with the disease,Hopefully not soon recover:(
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