Fiver U/D post #65-still doing great! :)

I've just gone to clean Fiver's pen out tonight and he wouldn't come to take his metacam and seemed to be belly pressing. I've tried moving him around and carrying him to jostle any gas I thought he might be having. When I put him down on my bed to see if he'd move about, he was twitching his gut in an odd movement I'd never seen before. I tried running my hand under him to see if there was some kind of blockage and he squeaked a little as I got to his bottom. He has been leaving urine droplets outside his box for a little while now, but I thought I might not be cleaning it fast enough for him and he was weeing outside it in protest.

Now he is obviously in pain (I got his metacam into him but didn't give him any of his usual greens because he doesn't want to eat and he's had to have small bits of carrot and red leaf lettuce lately to take his meds with because there hasn't been any good kale) and his tummy feels pretty empty, although there were poos in his litter tray, but those may have been from last night. I don't know how long he's been like this because I had to take Tooey to the vet today and run a whole bunch of errands, so I only got to him in the last half hour.

Would sludge be causing this issue or could he have a stone? I didn't notice if his tray was very wet when I cleared it out because I was just thinking he had gut stasis, but he definitely has discomfort in the area of his nether regions.

What can I do? I have no car to go to town with, OH has it at his place and of course it is late at night here, he is planning on going to town early in the morning, I am not sure I will catch him to get the car from him.

Very scared for my little man, help please??

MimzMum said:

I've just gone to clean Fiver's pen out tonight and he wouldn't come to take his metacam and seemed to be belly pressing. I've tried moving him around and carrying him to jostle any gas I thought he might be having. When I put him down on my bed to see if he'd move about, he was twitching his gut in an odd movement I'd never seen before. I tried running my hand under him to see if there was some kind of blockage and he squeaked a little as I got to his bottom. He has been leaving urine droplets outside his box for a little while now, but I thought I might not be cleaning it fast enough for him and he was weeing outside it in protest.

Now he is obviously in pain (I got his metacam into him but didn't give him any of his usual greens because he doesn't want to eat and he's had to have small bits of carrot and red leaf lettuce lately to take his meds with because there hasn't been any good kale) and his tummy feels pretty empty, although there were poos in his litter tray, but those may have been from last night. I don't know how long he's been like this because I had to take Tooey to the vet today and run a whole bunch of errands, so I only got to him in the last half hour.

Would sludge be causing this issue or could he have a stone? I didn't notice if his tray was very wet when I cleared it out because I was just thinking he had gut stasis, but he definitely has discomfort in the area of his nether regions.

What can I do? I have no car to go to town with, OH has it at his place and of course it is late at night here, he is planning on going to town early in the morning, I am not sure I will catch him to get the car from him.

Very scared for my little man, help please??

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Oh dear, it does sound like cystitis- the urine spotting, the pain and consequent secondary anorexia. Could you give a Vet a call for advice ? The Metacam may help a bit re pain and inflammation, but obviously if he is not passing any urine now it really is quite urgent for him to be examined by a Vet. Is he drinking ?

I would not palpate his abdomen unless you are 100% certain of what you are doing/feeling as *If* his bladder is very full and if he cannot pass urine then palpating his bladder could make matters worse.

It may be a UTI which is causing him a lot of bladder discomfort, bladder sludge/stones could be involved. But apart from pain relief I dont really feel there is much you can do until he is examined by a Vet.

Sending lots of vibes, it sounds a though it has been a very stressful day

Thanks Jane for answering
Yeah, this is not a good thing. I actually just took him to the kitchen sink to see if he had any scald or anything and there's no sign of that. But his anal glands were packed and I just cleaned those out. I haven't heavily palpated anything except to try to give him a brief tummy massage. I did feel down by his privates and there isn't anything ballooning there, but I really don't know if I'd recognize his bladder. I did try to dribble a little warm water over him...just in case that might get a flow going, but no luck.
Remember that his regular vet was talking about the possibility of him being a girl...well, I have to say, his 'bits' don't look too masculine to me so I wonder if it's true? :shock:
His rectal area seems a little reddish, but other than that he looks good down there.

There is only the ER vet on now, which I can't reach, and they are rubbish with rabbits anyway.

He looked just now like he wanted to try to eat cecals, but just trying to get himself into a position to bend around, he's spasming. I don't think he can bend over properly to get at them.
I just wish I could see him pee, I don't know if that's what he's trying to do and it's too painful for him...god help me if it's an obstruction. Although I think he'd be much more lethargic if it was that.

He's otherwise bright, but he's just in pain. I have given him 0.35 mls of dog metacam about an hour ago. (Not sure of his current weight, but he last came in about 1800 grams I think? That was awhile ago.) He did seem to perk up once it took effect, but it's not covering his pain entirely.

Long night ahead. Is there anything else I can do to make him comfortable? I feel so useless...

MimzMum said:

I've just gone to clean Fiver's pen out tonight and he wouldn't come to take his metacam and seemed to be belly pressing. I've tried moving him around and carrying him to jostle any gas I thought he might be having. When I put him down on my bed to see if he'd move about, he was twitching his gut in an odd movement I'd never seen before. I tried running my hand under him to see if there was some kind of blockage and he squeaked a little as I got to his bottom. He has been leaving urine droplets outside his box for a little while now, but I thought I might not be cleaning it fast enough for him and he was weeing outside it in protest.

Now he is obviously in pain (I got his metacam into him but didn't give him any of his usual greens because he doesn't want to eat and he's had to have small bits of carrot and red leaf lettuce lately to take his meds with because there hasn't been any good kale) and his tummy feels pretty empty, although there were poos in his litter tray, but those may have been from last night. I don't know how long he's been like this because I had to take Tooey to the vet today and run a whole bunch of errands, so I only got to him in the last half hour.

Would sludge be causing this issue or could he have a stone? I didn't notice if his tray was very wet when I cleared it out because I was just thinking he had gut stasis, but he definitely has discomfort in the area of his nether regions.

What can I do? I have no car to go to town with, OH has it at his place and of course it is late at night here, he is planning on going to town early in the morning, I am not sure I will catch him to get the car from him.

Very scared for my little man, help please??

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I'm so sorry MM, it does sound like a urinary infection to me

I wouldn't rush to say it is a stone, or even sludge. It could simply be a easy bacterial infection that will clear up with antibiotics.

Can you give the best dose of Metacam? If it's painful then he needs to pass water somehow. You don't want a secondary stasis developing.

Sending mega vibes for you and your little one xx

Hi Mighty Max :wave:
I gave him what is supposed to be his maximum dose of metacam at about 11:30-midnight. He seems a bit more relaxed now (he's been shifting and 'bouncing' his rear end a bit, but now is settled in bun loaf position) but I haven't seen him pass anything while I've been watching him. It's almost 2 AM here now.
He did eat a bit of red leaf lettuce about half an hour ago. I've just made up some critical care to help stave off any gut slowdown, but no idea if it's wise to give him this or not. I think I'll have to risk it as he hasn't eaten any hay since this started and I don't know how long he's been inappetant today.

I could also make mint tea to syringe in...would that be good or will it put too much strain on his bladder?

Well, he just took a whole Monoject 412 size syringe full of CC, but he's looking all uncomfy again so....
All I can do is hope he makes it till morning.
I am so sick of being stranded out here in the middle of nowhere with no help for it! :evil:

Still awake at 4:30 AM...Fiver is no better despite a few doses of simethicone to be certain it is not gut stasis. He is also holding his tail at an angle and if I move to check him he is flinching and sucking his belly in sharply. He looks sometimes like he is trying to urinate, but nothing is happening.
I am really scared. I'm afraid it's an obstruction. He is trying to drink water but doesn't manage much. I took a few videos, but they are poor quality and I'm not sure they show just how uncomfortable he is or how he's flinching/sucking in his belly when he moves in particular ways.
He's also breathing really quickly, (actually it seems to have slowed a bit now) but his ears are warmish so he's not in shock. You can just see he's really hurting. He tried eating some cecals but either they are not coming out from the pain he's in or there aren't any to come out, I am not sure which.
I gave him some massage (just gently over his back) and it seemed to make him feel a bit better, but the minute I stop he's all wild eyed again.
Hours yet till I can call my OH and see if he can piggyback me in on his trip to town. My vet's won't open till at least 8 AM.
He's just a wee bunny...it's not fair.

Poor boy The fast breathing is probably pain related. Personally I would just watch him and not do much more as far as 'hands on' stuff goes until you know for certain what you are dealing with. Try as hard as you can to appear to be calm around him as he will pick up on your anxiety. I know it's not any easy ask though as it must be horrendously stressful for you xx

MimzMum said:

Still awake at 4:30 AM...Fiver is no better despite a few doses of simethicone to be certain it is not gut stasis. He is also holding his tail at an angle and if I move to check him he is flinching and sucking his belly in sharply. He looks sometimes like he is trying to urinate, but nothing is happening.
I am really scared. I'm afraid it's an obstruction. He is trying to drink water but doesn't manage much. I took a few videos, but they are poor quality and I'm not sure they show just how uncomfortable he is or how he's flinching/sucking in his belly when he moves in particular ways.
He's also breathing really quickly, (actually it seems to have slowed a bit now) but his ears are warmish so he's not in shock. You can just see he's really hurting. He tried eating some cecals but either they are not coming out from the pain he's in or there aren't any to come out, I am not sure which.
I gave him some massage (just gently over his back) and it seemed to make him feel a bit better, but the minute I stop he's all wild eyed again.
Hours yet till I can call my OH and see if he can piggyback me in on his trip to town. My vet's won't open till at least 8 AM.
He's just a wee bunny...it's not fair.

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Oh that's really not fair I'm so sorry

I didn't know whether to advise syringing food or water, given it may make him strain to wee. But he has to have it so you did the right thing.

I think max dose of Metacam until you can see a vet you trust to help him.

I'm so very sorry MM. You have been in some desperate straights of late xx

Okay, I am back from the vets now, and although I am six degrees from destroyed as far as energy goes, I'm going to try to remember what he said:
First off, he does seem to think it is cystitis and doesn't find anything to indicate that it was gut stasis. Fiver's belly felt good to him, no bloat. He did get to see a short video I had made of the flinching and strange noises Fiver was making, plus he was doing it more while we were there, any pressing on his lower stomach would elicit this. He has been admitted and will be staying in hospital overnight so he can receive proper fluids/pain relief/abx. He wants to see if the pain relief will help him to wee, and failing that, will take xrays to determine if there's anything else going on. He wasn't quick to presume a stone although he said it could be a possibility, but the xrays will show us that if he has one. (Really hope not, that's surgery and probably not a successful one considering how uncomfortable Fiver had been and for how long.)

So yeah...I have to try not to worry about him being there overnight. He's better off there even though they don't have a night nurse, I can't do the sub q's worth a damn anymore so there's no point me trying, and certainly if he's getting some nice buprenorphine then he will feel much better soon. Not sure what kind of abx they are doing...jeez I hope it's not the baytril again, he didn't do well with that last time. (I may have to make a phone call.)

He has lost weight since he was last in...at least a year ago...he is 1.575...I think that's grams, but not sure. Quite a bit down from the 1800 I thought he was. I hope I'm not giving him too much metacam for that weight.

I also got Tooey's test results and although I don't recall specific numbers, her levels are all down except for her BUN, which can fluctuate. :? So the vet thinks she may have another UTI (she gets them at the drop of a hat...ANY hat) and now I have tablets to give her.

I had to drive in after having only two hours of broken sleep, so I dragged my poor son with me (OH couldn't come, he has several health issues that make driving agonising, so it was all on me today) to make sure I didn't go off the road...of course he was yawning his head off too so I don't know how much help he would've been...and now that we are back I think something to eat and a long nap is called for, after I take care of the other pets and their medicines. I will get a call later today as to what the vet has found so far, and he'll let me know approximately when I can pick Fiver up tomorrow. A quandary because my OH has doctor's appointments and we only have one car between us...so this should be interesting. He was already upset that he wasn't able to go in today and pick up some parts to fix our other car. Since we've been living separately for four years now, having to share a vehicle leads to a lot of arguments. He is always ready to let me use it, but it usually winds up in a situation like this...I feel bad.

Okay...off to grab some kip and thank you both so much for all the help, vibes and well wishes.

I'm sorry Fiver is so poorly. It must have been awful having to wait to be able to get him to the vet. Hopefully now that he's there they will be able to make him more comfortable and get to the root of the problem so he can be put on the right medication.

Sending you lots of hugs and I hope you'll be able to get some much needed rest xx

Thanks Scrappy's Little Helper
Well, I just got an update from the vet...Fiver is in emergency surgery for a large bladder stone. I am now beyond terrified for the little guy. Can I please get some more vibes from anyone who may still be awake to read this? Scared to death doesn't even begin to cover how I feel right now. I'll get my next update about 6 PM tonight. My OH is going to flip because of course this is going to cost some serious money and he is trying to get us to save all we can so we can move.

My poor Fiver...to realize there was no way even if I had taken him to the ER vet that they would've been able to do anything about this...and I am at fault because of all the kale I've fed him and I think his arthritis is worse these days because he doesn't move much...how long must this have been going on and I just thought it was his creaky joints??
I feel like a terrible bunny mum.

I am glad you were able to get Fiver to the vets.

Less than a year ago, I lost Amigo at the age of 14+ years. He was a netherland dwarf that was only about 2.2 pounds (1kg, 1000grams). When he was 7 years old, he had a bladder stone/infection that was so advanced he passed tiny spots of blood as he strained to try to pee. Just hours before I noticed he was not eating or drinking so my first thought was stasis. Once I saw the tiny dots of blood and straining, I got him to an emergency vet. When the emergency vet examined him, she thought he had several small stones. Even the x-ray looked like multiple stones. He had surgery the next morning and my regular vet emoved a large bladder stone the vet called a jack stone. It was not smooth, but was covered with points. It looked like a rocky planet. After his surgery he had a little pain meds and went back to eating and drinking the same evening. He was put on antibiotics for several weeks and then lived another 7 years. May Fiver be as fortunate as my little Amigo and show everyone that being a little bunny does not mean you are not a fighter.

Thank you so much bunny momma Your words are so kind. I am glad to hear your little bub did so well after surgery, and also sorry to hear that he is no longer with us. He does sound to have lived a good long life.

Okay, just got off the phone with his doctor.
The stone was lodged in the urethra, so there was some tug and pull to get it out. As such, he wants to be sure there was no damage done to the bladder wall and Fiver will be closely monitored at least through tomorrow. If he has no leakage, it will be okay to bring him home. However, since we live so far out, I may have him kept till Saturday to be certain he will be alright.

His vet is flying out tomorrow for two days (not sure why, I didn't pry) and so the practice manager vet will be watching Fiver to see how he gets on. He is not out of the woods by any means, but the vet said his heart rate and breathing stabilized well after the stone was extracted, so he will be feeling much better now. He thinks he is doing well so far and hopes are high that he will recover fully.

I feel terrible still. I should've seen this coming with how sedentary he was getting and how I was feeding him. It just does not do to gamble with oxalates. We will be adjusting his diet along with the recommendations of the lab who will test his stone.

Personally, back to hay and water I think for my little man. They've not failed him to this point and it was only my stupidity that brought this on by adding veggies he did not need and that weren't right for him. And perhaps a little more exercise, whether he likes it or not! :?

Onward and upwards. If everyone would please continue to think of him and wish him well in his recovery. I am so very grateful to you all! xxxxxxx

oh goodness, how scary for you. sending all the vibes and well wishes i can. xxx

I am so sorry to read the recent update and that our fears about a urolith have been confirmed. Remember, I had an 11 year old Doe who underwent surgery to remove a HUGE bladder stone and despite the odds she pulled through and lived for another two full years with no more problems. So whilst the situation for Fiver is obviously very serious, there is still some hope and he is obviously doing well so far.

Millions of vibes being sent xx

Thank you for your vibes, biscandmatt1

Thank you for your encouragement, Jane.

Yeah I guess with everything else piling on I'm getting a bit fatalistic. I mean, he was just in so much pain. And I get that because I've done the kidney stone thing...it's terrible...there's no words for the agony. And I had to try to sleep last night knowing there was nothing I could do for him and he was right at my back in his enclosure, hurting...

That's what makes me feel so bad. Nothing I could do except wait to get him in today. It nearly killed me. I don't want to even think how he must have felt... "Mom...do something, it hurts!"

Thank God his vet was on the ball today and fit us in and got him sussed...I think if I'd had to wait for even another minute I might've lost him. It was far too long as it was. Hopefully there's no tears in the tissues and he will be feeling much better now and heal quickly. Going to work on getting him a few nicer blankets and bedding so he's sitting on stuff that's a bit softer, his sore hock on his left foot is pretty raw right now. Probably from having to sit in odd positions because he was too uncomfortable to sit normally. I'll have to remember to ask the vet what to do with that before I take him home.

Got to try to catch up on all that sleep tonight. I am more that ready right now to just dissolve into my bed! But I have meds to hand out to the cat and the other bunnies and clean up to do.

Thanks again everyone for thinking of my wee man. xxxxx

I'm sorry I missed all this, I'm sending lots of vibes and hugs xx

Sending hugs x

I'm so sorry to hear this MimzMum, but try not to be too hard on yourself. You stayed up to look after him and you got him to the vets as soon as you could, no one could ask for more and he is lucky to have such a loving home

Sending lots of vibes for a good recovery for Fiver.