Need some advice about Xena's symptoms. U/D diagnosed with e.c

I apologise because this will be quite long. I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

Xena has been unwell for the past few weeks and my vets don't really know why. I would be so grateful for opinions from anyone who has had a bun with these symptoms or for anyone to let me know if there is anything else we should check for. My vet is the best around here for rabbits but he is not a specialist, however he is an exotic vet and has done a lot of courses on rabbits (I check these things :roll.

So a quick summary of her health problems so far:
She has had a slightly wet bum and seems to be "leaking" randomly.
She has lost some weight (only about 30g)
Her drinking has increased (possibly due to the heating?)
Her uppy ear is lopping (I mention this because she does this when she's not feeling well)
She seems "off" and has been very cuddly with me, which is out of character. She's not been flopping out or doing her usual DBFs.
She has ulcers on both eyes and so is being treated for those. This could be related but she has had eye problems since I got her due to having misshapen eye lids.
Today she has produced wet-looking, black, mishapen poos all over the place. (Not cecals)

She has had bloods done and something isn't right (I can post up the results if you think this might help). It seems like something is going on with her liver and/or kidneys. Her urine sample seemed normal except for glucose appearing in her pee. My vet also did a glucose test on her blood tonight and it was raised. We think this might be the start of a stasis episode, most likely related to whatever is going on, however she has continued eating throughout this whole thing and has been bright and alert.

So far she has had a course of baytril to rule out a UTI but nothing has changed. She is currently having a course of panacur just to rule E.C out but since Shadowfax and Fiver are both absolutely fine, I doubt it's E.C. We discussed treating all three of them but decided against it unless she improved on it, which she hasn't so far. We don't think a scan on her kidneys/liver would help because whatever is going on isn't "bad" enough (according to the bloods) to show up on a scan but it is an option. For now we are going to sort out her guts and in a month's time do her bloods again to see if anything has changed. She's got cisapride and loxicom for her tum.

I think that's everything. Let me know if you need any more info.

Thanks guys.

Oh poor Xena, that does sound odd about the glucose in her urine. Can bunnies get diabetes? That's what I think of when sugar shows up there. (Just googled it and apparently they can: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Metabolic_diseases/diabetes.PDF ) Although one would expect her weight would be up, but perhaps not necessarily. I've know several very thin diabetic humans.


The poos remind me of megacolon. Has she ever had 'cow pat' type stools before? How is she about eating hay and what kind does she eat?

The 'leaky bum' would signal kidney or bladder problems to me a.k.a. stones or sludge or UTI. But you said she's had antibiotics for that.

She is spayed too, right? Were there any troubles with that that might only be showing up now? If she's not spayed...I don't like to say... but could it be cancer? (I'll add I think I'm reaching a bit here, but wanted to look at everything.)

Of course I am no expert. But these are the things that come to mind with what you describe. It's always disconcerting too when they want to 'spend time' if they are not usually that way. I hope you and our vet can get to the heart of the matter. It must be terribly distressing to see. (((((Hugs)))))

Feel better vibes on the way for the lovely Xena. xxxxxxxxx

Thank you for your insight. We did the blood glucose test because my vet did think diabetes may be a possibility. However, I don't think her glucose was up enough to suggest that. We are going to redo the bloods at a later date and I presume he'll check her glucose again. Buns can get diabetes but it's rare. Also not sure it would produce the symptoms here but it certainly is a possibility.
She is spayed. Unfortunately, she was pregnant at the time (nobody knew) and so the babies were aborted, sadly. Could this perhaps cause some problems?
She has had poos like this before but I thought it was readigrass causing it. I cut it out and she has been fine since but perhaps it was just coincidence and it was actually a "flare up" of whatever this is.
I even had the vet check her heart for anything there and her back/legs in case of arthritis (which could be stopping her eating her cecals) but they seem fine.

I just wish we knew what it was. If only they could speak.

if the vet thought to try ruling out a uti first then i'd go back to that because that seems likely to me with the leaking and increased drinking. it's always how any of my pets have started with them. but i'd use a different antibiotic, as baytril isn't the best choice for them. our vets will use marbocyl for them, but alot of others also use septrin. for uti's, antibiotics have always been combined with metacam to treat inflammation aswell and inflammation based discomfort. courses may need to be usually at least a few weeks as bladder inflammation takes a while to reduce and the doses need to be adequate, especially the metacam, at least intitially, to bring down the majority of the swelling as quickly as possible. x

I am sorry to hear that Xena is not well.It sounds as though she is showing signs of Liver failure. All of the symptoms you mention, except the eye ulcers, are those I have seen several times in Rabbits in Liver failure/with Liver disease.

You could ask the Vet more about this and if he feels giving her a further course of antibiotics (I'd suggest Septrin, but it's obviously up to a Vet to make that judgement) and also about giving Milk Thistle which my Vet has prescribed as there is anecdotal evidence that it might help support liver function. As with all complimentary treatments it is sensible to discuss the pros and cons with the Vet treating your Rabbit rather than to just assume that 'natural' always means 'safe'. Some 'Herbal Remedies' can interact badly with conventional medication.

I would also speak with the Vet about the choice of pain relief and if a different class of drug might be appropriate given the blood test findings. Finally, when a Rabbit is having problems with Liver and/ or Kidney function fluid therapy can be useful and it can also help the Rabbit feel better within him/herself xx

My Fudge has all of those symptoms except the eye ulcers and was diagnosed with kidney failure a year ago. She also lost more weight (~400g from a starting weight of 1.9kg!) She has remained stable at that lower weight though. The kidney failure was confirmed by her bloods though so I would have thought the same should be possible for Xena. I am also certain it was caused by ec. Her sister had a head tilt a number of years ago so I suspect fudge always had it too and very recently she also developed a tilt which was treated with panacur. Interesting that liver issues would manifest similarly but i don't know anything about that.

esupi said:

My Fudge has all of those symptoms except the eye ulcers and was diagnosed with kidney failure a year ago. She also lost more weight (~400g from a starting weight of 1.9kg!) She has remained stable at that lower weight though. The kidney failure was confirmed by her bloods though so I would have thought the same should be possible for Xena. I am also certain it was caused by ec. Her sister had a head tilt a number of years ago so I suspect fudge always had it too and very recently she also developed a tilt which was treated with panacur. Interesting that liver issues would manifest similarly but i don't know anything about that.

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Some types of Liver disease can cause kidney problems too. Not always, but it can happen in certain circumstances.

Thank you all. I'm on my phone at work so bear with my spelling mistakes lol.
I asked for abx as I only had a short course but we were worried about her guts and so we decided to focus on stablising her guts before trying other things. Last night she looked pretty miserable and this morning I woke up to a lot of brown stains all over the carpet where Xena had been sat. She perked up when I got up and ran over for her meds and was eating hay and pellets when I left this morning. Her bum is stained but not mucky.
The bloods and urine didn't suggest an infection so I think this is why my vet doesn't think it's a UTI. One reason we did bloods was to see if she was fighting an infection.
He also debated over the metacam because of her results but as mentioned, we want to sort her guts out as best as possible in the short term. I'm giving her 0.5mls twice a day (dog metacam) and will reduce it. Tbh, it doesn't seem to be helping...although she's only had it last night and this morning. She is definitely uncomfortable/in pain. Would tramadol be a better alternative? I think that is kinder on the kidneys? Would the metacam have a serious effect even if it's short term?

Jane, I am thinking the same in regards to her liver. She has really been ok up until yesterday when her poos changed, which is why my vet is happy to take the "wait and see" approach. Obviously if she worsens at all I will take her back, although I don't really know what we can do without knowing exactly what is wrong. If her poos don't improve by early next week, I will also take her back.
Would liver\kidney failure\disease result in raised glucose levels or glucose being excreted in the urine?
I will post a pic of the blood results so you can all see them. My vet said they aren't very bad but definitely something not right. He also said rabbit bloods are difficult to interpret beacuse stress can alter them slightly.

Worrying myself sick with her. I hate being at work when one of my animals is poorly.

Vegan_Bunny said:

Would liver\kidney failure\disease result in raised glucose levels or glucose being excreted in the urine?

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In some cases yes. For example in Hepatic Lipidosis (Fatty Liver Disease) which can occur as a result of a reduced food intake for any reason. But a raised blood glucose can also occur due to stress.

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Miscellaneous/HepaticLipidosisRabbit.htm

When Liver and/or Kidney function is compromised the choice of analgesia is often a challenge. The Vet will weigh up risks v benefits when deciding what class of analgesic drug to use and at what dose. Usually the dose does need to be on the lower end of the scale when kidney/liver function is compromised, whatever the analgesic drug is prescribed.

Nice to see you back Vegan_Bunny, but sorry to hear of Xena's problems.

Sending loads of vibes for you and her xx

MimzMum said:

Oh poor Xena, that does sound odd about the glucose in her urine. Can bunnies get diabetes? That's what I think of when sugar shows up there. (Just googled it and apparently they can: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Metabolic_diseases/diabetes.PDF )

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Thanks for suggest

Well today I got up late (had a migraine this morning) and Xena had done a lot of odd poos again. Fortunately they weren't wet (have no idea if they were wet when first produced) but they were completely malformed, some were black whilst others were the usual colour. Her bum was a bit wet as well. Her feet and bum are turning yellowy/brown, something which she has never had a problem with before.

She's still eating with gusto and having her meds but was wondering if it might be worth trying metaclop instead of cisapride? Could kidney/liver problems affect the gut in this way? I asked my vet this last week and he said it shouldn't do but he can't be sure. To me it seems as though her guts aren't functioning correctly at all. I would put this down to the meds but this started before she was on anything.
One thing I have noticed is that she doesn't seem to be drinking nearly as much as before. Perhaps it's just because the weather (and so my room) has been significantly colder lately but I am not sure. All three seem to be drinking less.

I will post up the bloods so you can have a look and see what you think. We had the pathology people do a review on them and they came back with the same thing my vet said...that something is going on that seems to be liver or kidney related. Her liver seems to be worse than her kidneys.

Vegan_Bunny said:

Well today I got up late (had a migraine this morning) and Xena had done a lot of odd poos again. Fortunately they weren't wet (have no idea if they were wet when first produced) but they were completely malformed, some were black whilst others were the usual colour. Her bum was a bit wet as well. Her feet and bum are turning yellowy/brown, something which she has never had a problem with before.

She's still eating with gusto and having her meds but was wondering if it might be worth trying metaclop instead of cisapride? Could kidney/liver problems affect the gut in this way? I asked my vet this last week and he said it shouldn't do but he can't be sure. To me it seems as though her guts aren't functioning correctly at all. I would put this down to the meds but this started before she was on anything.
One thing I have noticed is that she doesn't seem to be drinking nearly as much as before. Perhaps it's just because the weather (and so my room) has been significantly colder lately but I am not sure. All three seem to be drinking less.

I will post up the bloods so you can have a look and see what you think. We had the pathology people do a review on them and they came back with the same thing my vet said...that something is going on that seems to be liver or kidney related. Her liver seems to be worse than her kidneys.

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I am no expert and certainly I am not professionally qualified to interpret blood test results, but to me the bloods do appear to indicate a Liver problem. As I said in my previous post, Liver problems can cause GI tract symptoms. In fact I have never know a Rabbit with a Liver problem to not exhibit some sort of GI tract symptom. But of course that does not mean to say that GI tract symptoms have to be involved, just IME they always have been.

Jack's-Jane said:

I am no expert and certainly I am not professionally qualified to interpret blood test results, but to me the bloods do appear to indicate a Liver problem. As I said in my previous post, Liver problems can cause GI tract symptoms. In fact I have never know a Rabbit with a Liver problem to not exhibit some sort of GI tract symptom. But of course that does not mean to say that GI tract symptoms have to be involved, just IME they always have been.

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Thank you. That is certainly interesting. If it is liver disease\problems what course of treatment is available? I know more about treating kidney disease than liver. I am getting even more worried that her guts aren't improving.

Today I rushed Xena to the vets. She seemed to jump off my windowsill and land awkwardly. At first I thought she'd broken her back; she was laid on her side, unresponsive and occasionally kicking out or twitching. After a few seconds it became apparent that she could move her legs but could not stand or right herself. I put her in a carrier and raced to the vets where my usual vet saw me. She was upright at this point and could kind of stand up. It seems like she has had a fit or neurological event of some sort, her eyes were flicking when I got there but she did look much more "with it". I am so, so worried.
I knew she wasn't right. I was sat on my bed watching her and she kept "bothering" her leg. As if she was itchy or trying to lick it but she wasn't actually touching her fur. It was a few mins after that she she jumped off the windowsill. I now think she had a seizure, which caused her to leap.

She's at the vets being observed and we are going to take bloods for E.C (although she is already being treated for that) and to see if she has an infection or something. Really we are baffled and if the E.C comes back negative then we really have nowhere to go from there and would probably just have to treat the symptoms. Although a positive E.C result wouldn't necessarily mean she has an active infection, going from the symptoms and the fact that she has had this "episode" would be enough for us to suspect it is E.C.

I am missing her so much.

I am sorry to hear how poorly Xena has become Is the Vet also rechecking her Liver enzymes ? Liver function problems can cause neurological symptoms. Sending lots of vibes for her xx

Jack's-Jane said:

I am sorry to hear how poorly Xena has become Is the Vet also rechecking her Liver enzymes ? Liver function problems can cause neurological symptoms. Sending lots of vibes for her xx

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I asked about that and he said he can do that but he wants to check for E.C first because if we have a negative on that then we can definitely rule that out. I didn't know liver problems could case neurological symptoms, I will ring up tomorrow and request full bloods done again, specifically her liver enzymes checked. Tonight I wasn't really thinking straight from the shock of what happened and because I'm actually really ill myself atm. In fact it's all been very coincidental. I should have been at work today and was off because of being so ill, it just so happened that I was sat in my room when this happened. I dread to think what may have happened had I gone to work this morning.

My poor girl. Fiver was so concerned, bless him.

I'm so sorry I'm sending lots of vibes for her, and hugs for you xx

Sending lots of vibes for Xena. I hope the vets are able to diagnose what the problem is. It certainly was very fortunate that you were home when it happened.

Zoobec said:

I'm so sorry I'm sending lots of vibes for her, and hugs for you xx

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Thank you, Zoobec. I think I'm still in shock over it all. I thought she was dying and I didn't know what to do apart from put my arms around her to stop her hurting herself when she was trying to get up. It was absolutely horrible.