Another Reason Why I Would Never Agree to Trancing my Rabbits

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24515628

The effects could be fatal, it seems.

No disrespect to anyone, Vet or not, who disagrees. It appears to be another contentious issue. But I just thought I'd pass on the following link incase some people have never seen it.

I'm glad you've posted this, I keep getting requests for some evidence of trancing being a bad thing.

Funnily enough I was having a discussion with a rescue just yesterday about an image they had put on their Facebook of a tranced longhaired rabbit being groomed. They were stating that trancing was only ever done in situations where it was needed and that this rabbit was having his belly and feet groomed. Myself and Jo Hinde were arguing that there was never really an excuse for it.

I even posted photos of me grooming Milo's tummy and feet to show that there was never a reason to put them in that position, however there were still arguments that my rabbit was short haired and the long haired rabbit needed to be in the position for proper grooming....rubbish I say..

Generally I would agree but I think FHB referred to this study and there was something about the way they did the study that made it not perfect evidence - eg bunny in weird environment swiftly and clinically turned on back is obviously stressful

She said she'd taken blood glucose levels from carefully tranced rabbits and they weren't mega high - so the bunnies werent super stressed

Obviously it is stressful and it is dangerous but if it was to help an ill bunny and the choice was between a GA or trancing and I felt confident my vet knew what they were doing, I wouldn't rule it out

But not for grooming or cute photos etc

This is from the full paper:

Tonic immobility was induced after physical restraint by the skin over the neck (“scruffing”) and then quickly putting the animal on its right side (right lateral recumbency), emulating the subjugation produced by a predator’s jaw.

Sounds pretty terrifying! Though I agree that trancing is stressful for a bun, even in a calm, safe environment.

Sarah1991 said:

I'm glad you've posted this, I keep getting requests for some evidence of trancing being a bad thing.

Funnily enough I was having a discussion with a rescue just yesterday about an image they had put on their Facebook of a tranced longhaired rabbit being groomed. They were stating that trancing was only ever done in situations where it was needed and that this rabbit was having his belly and feet groomed. Myself and Jo Hinde were arguing that there was never really an excuse for it.

I even posted photos of me grooming Milo's tummy and feet to show that there was never a reason to put them in that position, however there were still arguments that my rabbit was short haired and the long haired rabbit needed to be in the position for proper grooming....rubbish I say..

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I have never needed to put a rabbit on its back to groom it and we have taken in some awfully matted rabbits, to the point they couldn't walk properly. If for some reason I did and knew what I was doing ( which I wouldn't) I certainly wouldn't post photos of it publicly knowing it would encourage others less experienced to copy.

I think in the right circumstances with a VERY experienced rabbit vet like FHB I would be OK with it. But that's the only time

Hugo's There said:

I have never needed to put a rabbit on its back to groom it and we have taken in some awfully matted rabbits, to the point they couldn't walk properly. If for some reason I did and knew what I was doing ( which I wouldn't) I certainly wouldn't post photos of it publicly knowing it would encourage others less experienced to copy.

I think in the right circumstances with a VERY experienced rabbit vet like FHB I would be OK with it. But that's the only time

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I guess that's fair. Lots of people obviously trust FHB.

I didn't like the fact that the rescue had posted that image though, its just another way for people to say ''Oh look its fine because this rescue do it'' its already hard enough getting people to understand its unnecessary for grooming and things.

I think it can be the lesser of two evils. If I had to choose between a stressed out 5 minutes in a bunny burrito ( I hate them) or 15 second semi trance for teeth inspection, I know which I would choose.

catherine09 said:

I think it can be the lesser of two evils. If I had to choose between a stressed out 5 minutes in a bunny burrito ( I hate them) or 15 second semi trance for teeth inspection, I know which I would choose.

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I guess everyone's different but I don't agree. The rabbit may be under a bit of stress for the five minutes but regardless of that at least the rabbit isn't freezing because it thinks its going to die.

At least that's the way I see it.

For me, the most compelling piece of evidence FHB gives with regard to this topic (when she differentiates between 'immobility response' and 'tonic immobility') is how the response is elicited. With tonic immobility and 'the' study the rabbits were put in that state by the sudden movements and scruffing (as highlighted by Francis & Charlie). When Frances elicits the 'immobility response' she uses calm, gentle movements. Therefore, the question is: is it actually the handling and scruffing that brings on the physiological changes described, or being put on their backs?

Frances does not use 'tonic immobility' but the 'immobility response' and during the lengthy debate (rerun of lectures) spent a lot of time differentiating and explaining the 'tonic' element of it.

Bunny Buddy said:

For me, the most compelling piece of evidence FHB gives with regard to this topic (when she differentiates between 'immobility response' and 'tonic immobility') is how the response is elicited. With tonic immobility and 'the' study the rabbits were put in that state by the sudden movements and scruffing (as highlighted by Francis & Charlie). When Frances elicits the 'immobility response' she uses calm, gentle movements. Therefore, the question is: is it actually the handling and scruffing that brings on the physiological changes described, or being put on their backs?

Frances does not use 'tonic immobility' but the 'immobility response' and during the lengthy debate (rerun of lectures) spent a lot of time differentiating and explaining the 'tonic' element of it.

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And as Frances says, a really stressed rabbit does not eat unlike those experiencing tonic immobility who accept foods on their backs. The rabbits in the survey are not comparable IMO owing to the brutal way they were tranced. I wouldnt hesitate to use tonic immobility over GA

Bunny Buddy said:

For me, the most compelling piece of evidence FHB gives with regard to this topic (when she differentiates between 'immobility response' and 'tonic immobility') is how the response is elicited. With tonic immobility and 'the' study the rabbits were put in that state by the sudden movements and scruffing (as highlighted by Francis & Charlie). When Frances elicits the 'immobility response' she uses calm, gentle movements. Therefore, the question is: is it actually the handling and scruffing that brings on the physiological changes described, or being put on their backs?

Frances does not use 'tonic immobility' but the 'immobility response' and during the lengthy debate (rerun of lectures) spent a lot of time differentiating and explaining the 'tonic' element of it.

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And as Frances says, a really stressed rabbit does not eat unlike those experiencing tonic immobility who accept foods on their backs. The rabbits in the survey are not comparable IMO owing to the brutal way they were tranced. I wouldnt hesitate to use tonic immobility over GA

I'm ashamed to say I have to scruff my rabbits to pick them up: I don't have the confidence in my hand size and 'catching' ability to pick up properly (yet). But I've only ever done it at the vets to get them on to the table, and it's less than 3s duration plus they're back-end supported for most of the carry (as soon as I can get my other hand under). They're not much more stressed than they already were and calm down quickly enough (even at the vets!), but it's horribly rough on the poor things.

I had to brush Aboleth's backside this weekend (she'd somehow got a wet bum Saturday evening, dry by Sunday morning so I brushed the matty-bits out gently: she's got this weird 'skirt' going on) and I was wondering if I'd need to tip her over to do it, but I didn't: I didn't even need to hold her! She did run off after a while, but there's nowhere she can go in the playhouse that I can't reach her :mrgreen:

Hugo's There said:

I have never needed to put a rabbit on its back to groom it and we have taken in some awfully matted rabbits, to the point they couldn't walk properly. If for some reason I did and knew what I was doing ( which I wouldn't) I certainly wouldn't post photos of it publicly knowing it would encourage others less experienced to copy.

I think in the right circumstances with a VERY experienced rabbit vet like FHB I would be OK with it. But that's the only time

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This ^

Given all the dreadful things that are done to rabbits why make this such an issue??
Rabbits get far more stressed by someone faffing about worrying about how to handle them than by someone competantly turning them over to administer meds or groom them. Our rabbits are routinely turned over and we have more elderly rabbits living long happy lives than anywhere else. Mint for example is a lionhead with long extremely fine fur who has been turned over and shaved underneath every month for the last nine years. Many of our older rabbits have a daily dose of metacam dripped into their mouths while they are upsidedown every morning. They lick it up happily. It takes a few seconds and they feel more comfortable for the rest of the day. I always do it when I let them out so they know that I won't pick them up at any other time, so they trust me.
If a rabbit has compromised breathing of course you should not turn them over, but otherwise the faster interventions can be done the better. I don't say tranced because while some do get quiet in that position others don't, and I never make any attempt to induce it. I just get what is needed done gently but firmly. They don't enjoy being handled so why prolong it?
Discouraging people from holding rabbits up side down for cuddling is a good idea, they hate it. Discouraging this quick method of providing care for the rabbit is not.
IMO this is a well intentioned campaign that has gone too far.

I'm in total agreement with you doorkeeper

doorkeeper said:

Given all the dreadful things that are done to rabbits why make this such an issue??
Rabbits get far more stressed by someone faffing about worrying about how to handle them than by someone competantly turning them over to administer meds or groom them. Our rabbits are routinely turned over and we have more elderly rabbits living long happy lives than anywhere else. Mint for example is a lionhead with long extremely fine fur who has been turned over and shaved underneath every month for the last nine years. Many of our older rabbits have a daily dose of metacam dripped into their mouths while they are upsidedown every morning. They lick it up happily. It takes a few seconds and they feel more comfortable for the rest of the day. I always do it when I let them out so they know that I won't pick them up at any other time, so they trust me.
If a rabbit has compromised breathing of course you should not turn them over, but otherwise the faster interventions can be done the better. I don't say tranced because while some do get quiet in that position others don't, and I never make any attempt to induce it. I just get what is needed done gently but firmly. They don't enjoy being handled so why prolong it?
Discouraging people from holding rabbits up side down for cuddling is a good idea, they hate it. Discouraging this quick method of providing care for the rabbit is not.
IMO this is a well intentioned campaign that has gone too far.

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Personally I would never, under any circumstances, administer anything orally to a Rabbit held on his/her back. IMO the risk of them aspirating what is put in their mouth is far too great. In the last 18 years not once have I encountered a situation whereby putting a Rabbit onto his/her back was necessary. I dont 'faff about' with handling my Rabbits, neither do I put them into a position that I believe causes them un-necessary distress.

We all have our own opinions on this subject, I was/am merely expressing mine

100% agree with you Jane

I have never had to turn a rabbit over to give them meds. The handy little gap between incisors and molars can reached perfectly well with bunny on all fours. All over in a few seconds with no stress

I must admit it would be tempting to put my buns in the 'trance' position for meds - sounds very much easier too me than 'faffing' around which I admit I do due to lack of confidence. But I just wouldn't risk it and have found other ways to adminster meds.

When I was looking for Harley - and before I joing RU properly - one breeder we went to see tranced her rabbits - and we honestly thought it was fine and she was showing us how to do it.:shock:
Thankfully we ended up not going with that breeder - and got Harley from Dee Millen instead who absolutely and categorically said - NEVER trance your rabbit and explained why.

A vet nurse at our old vets did trance Sheldon and Holly in order to cut their nails - I really didn't like it and having seen how quickly an experienced person can do their nails, I am very glad we don't go there any more.

I just don't see the point in risking harming your rabbit when there seems to be absolutley no need to - if you do do it, then fine but it can send out such a bad and wrong message to people who have just started out keeping rabbits and are very inexperienced...and will copy someone thinking they're doing the right thing.

Fellie said:

I must admit it would be tempting to put my buns in the 'trance' position for meds - sounds very much easier too me than 'faffing' around which I admit I do due to lack of confidence. But I just wouldn't risk it and have found other ways to adminster meds.

When I was looking for Harley - and before I joing RU properly - one breeder we went to see tranced her rabbits - and we honestly thought it was fine and she was showing us how to do it.:shock:
Thankfully we ended up not going with that breeder - and got Harley from Dee Millen instead who absolutely and categorically said - NEVER trance your rabbit and explained why.

A vet nurse at our old vets did trance Sheldon and Holly in order to cut their nails - I really didn't like it and having seen how quickly an experienced person can do their nails, I am very glad we don't go there any more.

I just don't see the point in risking harming your rabbit when there seems to be absolutley no need to - if you do do it, then fine but it can send out such a bad and wrong message to people who have just started out keeping rabbits and are very inexperienced...and will copy someone thinking they're doing the right thing.

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Truffle is in much more danger of being harmed during nail clipping if we don't trance her. Even with two of us, she is almost impossible to restrain (despite being a little nethie!). I can manage Fudge (also wriggle) even on my own, and the other two are no trouble, but not a chance with her. I am convinced it is much safer and less stressful for all involved to trance her to do it.

I get that there are many, many very experienced rabbit owners that have never had to turn their bunnies over to medicate or care for them. The fact that they have never had to doesn't necessarily equate to it being a bad technique for handling certain rabbits in certain circumstances. There is a clear inference that putting rabbits gently on their backs (more of a cradle & tip I'd say) is irresponsible and risky & I don't believe this to be true. A good bunny owner knows when their rabbits are stressed. Like with all other aspects of rabbit care, people new to keeping bunnies should have the whole picture put in front of them. There is a risk that this will close peoples minds to things like conscious dentals which makes me sad