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Gut stasis and EC

Fionabun

Fionabun

Mama Doe
Hello, I've been a member here for a while, though I'm pretty inactive.

I just wanted an update on where the bunny world is at in terms of understanding the impact of very mild EC on gut stasis.

After many years of nursing herd problems in my Dutch bunnies, with episodic/recurrent gut stasis, I made the link with EC, having noticed huge improvements when they went on Panacur treatment. None had any signs of EC in any classic form, so I had to battle with vets to understand my theory. Things improved massively for us and they went on to live long lives until last year. I was convinced that GI stasis can be an indicator of the very start of this condition

I now have my little Flossie and her little pal George, and a bonded duo of Hattie (Frenchie) and Hamish. All in good health.

Flossie and George were both off their food two days ago. This was the first time I had dealt with this properly in around 2 years, despite almost daily issues for almost 18 months back in 2005/6. So, cue doubled up syringe feeding, warm syringed fluids, Emperid/Meloxidyl. No identifiable dental issues noted by vet. Big improvements happened after about 6 hours of their first doubled up Panacur dose. I'm talking a remarkable difference. I always start a gut stasis bunny on Panacur and I'm convinced of the benefits of it, along with all other first line treatments mentioned above.

I just wondered whether we know more about this. A quick Google search hasn't really turned up much at all.

For anyone who remembers me, I no longer have any of my original bunnies, the Dutch gang of 5: Nell; Sumi; Jess; Clover; Marcy. I no longer have Archie, my silver fox. I lost my dear Frenchie, Fleur. I lost dear little Jasper, a rescue Dutchie too. All of this over a few years and never ever forgotten.

Fiona :)
 
Hello Fiona

I remember very well all the problems you had with your Dutchies. I believe that SarahP on here had 2 Does whom her Vet thought may have been exhibiting EC related GI tract issues. Hopefully Sarah will see this thread. I know that an Exotics Specialist Vet, Iain Cope, has applied for funding to enable him to further research/study EC in Rabbits. I am not sure how far along the line that work has gone though.

I guess in theory it is possible for EC to effect the GI tract. It is cellular inflammatory responses to erupting EC spores that cause clinical symptoms and whilst these symptoms are more likely to be CNS/Renal related I suppose if spores erupt into the lining of the GI tract then the subsequent inflammatory response could cause issues with gut motility. I have no idea if any of my thoughts here are correct, I am just surmising really. Then again gut stasis can occur as a result of a problem elsewhere, so it could be a secondary symptom as opposed to a primary problem.
 
Fionabun said:
Hello, I've been a member here for a while, though I'm pretty inactive.

I just wanted an update on where the bunny world is at in terms of understanding the impact of very mild EC on gut stasis.

After many years of nursing herd problems in my Dutch bunnies, with episodic/recurrent gut stasis, I made the link with EC, having noticed huge improvements when they went on Panacur treatment. None had any signs of EC in any classic form, so I had to battle with vets to understand my theory. Things improved massively for us and they went on to live long lives until last year. I was convinced that GI stasis can be an indicator of the very start of this condition

I now have my little Flossie and her little pal George, and a bonded duo of Hattie (Frenchie) and Hamish. All in good health.

Flossie and George were both off their food two days ago. This was the first time I had dealt with this properly in around 2 years, despite almost daily issues for almost 18 months back in 2005/6. So, cue doubled up syringe feeding, warm syringed fluids, Emperid/Meloxidyl. No identifiable dental issues noted by vet. Big improvements happened after about 6 hours of their first doubled up Panacur dose. I'm talking a remarkable difference. I always start a gut stasis bunny on Panacur and I'm convinced of the benefits of it, along with all other first line treatments mentioned above.

I just wondered whether we know more about this. A quick Google search hasn't really turned up much at all.

For anyone who remembers me, I no longer have any of my original bunnies, the Dutch gang of 5: Nell; Sumi; Jess; Clover; Marcy. I no longer have Archie, my silver fox. I lost my dear Frenchie, Fleur. I lost dear little Jasper, a rescue Dutchie too. All of this over a few years and never ever forgotten.

Fiona :)
Click to expand...

Hi Fiona :wave:

It's so difficult to get a definitive diagnosis of E.C. that until we do, I guess it's all speculation/anecdotal as to whether E.C. is related to G.I. Stasis - or indeed the other way around.

I have had long and interesting discussions about using Panacur, and especially a doubled up dose, with rabbit specialists. I think that giving Panacur in itself is not without risks, and although all my bunnies have tested positive to E.C., I have never given them Panacur when they were in stasis.

However, I believe we should all follow our instinct and also base our own treatment of our bunnies' health problems on our own past experiences (with the knowledge of a good vet thrown into the mix too, of course).
 
Fergie had repeated bouts of stasis (4 in just over a month... Very expensive!) and after blood tests the next test my vet recommended was an EC test. He thinks there are potential links with mild EC infections and stasis.

Ferg had no other symptoms apart from stasis, his teeth were ok for 3/4 episodes and we couldn't find an actual cause. We did an EC test and his came back highly positive so we did 28 days of panacur and we haven't had ANY problems since we finished it a couple of months ago! :)

I have no idea how EC would affect the gut... But if it can penetrate brain tissue I'm certain it could just as easily affect gut tissue, I would love to do a bit of research into this one day! I can only speak from personal experience but treating with panacur does seem to have cured my monster of his mystery problems so I would be inclined to think that they were related :)
 
Thank you so much everyone! Sorry for my late reply. Bunnies doing better now (still on Panacur) I'm in touch with SarahP via Facebook who is always a great support- we were going through it 'together' (albeit the length of the country apart) many years ago. Such interesting information here, my thanks indeed. Fiona
 
Thanks Jane, do hope you are well. I remember some of your little friends from circa 2005-2006. Thanks for the time to reply xxx
 
Holhol said:
Fergie had repeated bouts of stasis (4 in just over a month... Very expensive!) and after blood tests the next test my vet recommended was an EC test. He thinks there are potential links with mild EC infections and stasis.

Ferg had no other symptoms apart from stasis, his teeth were ok for 3/4 episodes and we couldn't find an actual cause. We did an EC test and his came back highly positive so we did 28 days of panacur and we haven't had ANY problems since we finished it a couple of months ago! :)

I have no idea how EC would affect the gut... But if it can penetrate brain tissue I'm certain it could just as easily affect gut tissue, I would love to do a bit of research into this one day! I can only speak from personal experience but treating with panacur does seem to have cured my monster of his mystery problems so I would be inclined to think that they were related :)
Click to expand...
Thank you so much, very interesting indeed and a very similar to the pattern I observed by chance back in 2005/2006
 
Thank you MightyMax, another interesting perspective. Like you, I take the attitude of ' whatever works', combining a little bit of modest experience, vet advice and a bit of 'guts'!! X
 
Ooh 'ello again. Isn't it weird how much time has passed since all this started? And yet so little has changed.

Really hope you can get to grips with the latest problems. My feeling with my two was that the link with EC was certain, but the thing I never understood was whether the GI symptoms were symptoms of pain elsewhere or whether the gut itself was affected.
 
I had a bun with megacolon symptoms, that died last year after a GA. When he first came to me, he was a very nervous bun and ended up going into stasis several times before I discovered he couldn't tolerate pellets and that he might have megacolon. Once he was off pellets and other sugary/starchy foods, he never had stasis again and was healthy for the two years prior to his death.

After his death I had a necropsy done and the results surprised me. The findings were encephalitis, interstitial pneumonia and pulmonary edema, hepatitis, nephritis, and myocarditis. All due to e. cuniculi. Now he had never had any of the symptoms of EC or any other illness besides his stasis issues and suspected megacolon. And I know what to look for and am fairly clued up when it comes to the symptoms of EC and other illnesses in rabbits. In fact he appeared perfectly healthy prior to his death.

I don't know if any sign of gut illness was just missed in the necropsy, or if there was no sign of gut illness and all the symptoms of megacolon and stasis were directly tied to the EC. But it is interesting that the issue comes up and is suspected that they may be linked in some instances.
 
SarahP said:
Ooh 'ello again. Isn't it weird how much time has passed since all this started? And yet so little has changed.

Really hope you can get to grips with the latest problems. My feeling with my two was that the link with EC was certain, but the thing I never understood was whether the GI symptoms were symptoms of pain elsewhere or whether the gut itself was affected.
Click to expand...

Hello Sarah!!!! x
 
Jbun said:
I had a bun with megacolon symptoms, that died last year after a GA. When he first came to me, he was a very nervous bun and ended up going into stasis several times before I discovered he couldn't tolerate pellets and that he might have megacolon. Once he was off pellets and other sugary/starchy foods, he never had stasis again and was healthy for the two years prior to his death.

After his death I had a necropsy done and the results surprised me. The findings were encephalitis, interstitial pneumonia and pulmonary edema, hepatitis, nephritis, and myocarditis. All due to e. cuniculi. Now he had never had any of the symptoms of EC or any other illness besides his stasis issues and suspected megacolon. And I know what to look for and am fairly clued up when it comes to the symptoms of EC and other illnesses in rabbits. In fact he appeared perfectly healthy prior to his death.

I don't know if any sign of gut illness was just missed in the necropsy, or if there was no sign of gut illness and all the symptoms of megacolon and stasis were directly tied to the EC. But it is interesting that the issue comes up and is suspected that they may be linked in some instances.
Click to expand...

A really sad story; sorry about your bunny. However, it is really useful to hear these post mortem results as otherwise, we're none the wiser about the lesser known effects of conditions like this. Thank you very much for telling me about this
 
Yes, I've got to admit, I wrestled with my conscience a bit over not getting a PM done when Clover was put to sleep. Although in reality I only thought Dusty would last another month or so (it was 7 in the end). Felt too upset to sort anything with the vet really anyway!
 
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