Gravel as a substrate?

Hi there, my name's Bonnie and I wondered if you could help me?

The school I work for is getting two French Lops. They will spend a long time living inside the building becoming accustomed to being surrounded by children etc but the end game is to have them outside in a pen where they will get daily visits from the children as part of our enrichment activities. The pen currently houses two goats but they will be moving out into a larger area. The fencing is more than adequate to keep the buns in and safe and they will have a six by six shed in which to shelter, eat etc but at the moment the floor of the pen is just dirt. It used to have a lot of grass but the goats have put paid to that!

I am trying to come up with a suitable substrate on a tight budget. The local garden centre has said they will do us a deal on gravel and this seems to be the cheapest option at the moment. Patio slabs in a pen that size (25ft x 15ft) would be prohibitively expensive as we can't get a deal on those.

My question is, is gravel ok as a long term substrate for the buns? I can wire underneath the gravel to prevent them escaping so that's not an issue but has anyone had experience of Frenchies on gravel. They are obviously a heavy bun and I don't want them getting sore hocks but on the other hand, Frenchies tend to have pretty thick fur on those enormous feet! It would not be very easy to clean gravel as such but it can be washed through quite effectively and as I am in charge of all things animal at the school, I shall be doing my darndest to litter train them too so hopefully not too many stray berries anyway.

I have also considered bark chips but was concerned about them retaining water and encouraging mould spores.

I thought about sand but was worried about possible ingestion/impaction.

Woodchips would again be too wet.....this is for a totally outdoor area, exposed to all our lovely British weather!

If gravel is ok, would it be better to go for the 10mm or 20mm?

What are your thoughts bunny people???

Why is your school thinking of taking on two French Lops?
Why should rabbits become 'accustomed to being surrounded by children'? Is that best for the rabbits?

Does the pen have a roof? Whatever the height of your fencing, foxes and cats can jump or climb, and foxes certainly could dig under.
The rabbits, of course, presented with a dirt floor, even if it is camouflaged, will dig their way out and love doing so.

insulated and fox-proof mesh down first, then turf over, would be my suggestion for the pen.
But, ideally, I'd like you to re-think. It would be kinder to the rabbits if you didn't have them, and thus avoided putting them in very stressful (for them) situations indoors and outdoors.

Have you ever been bitten by a rabbit, by the way? I've been bitten by medium sized rabbits and wouldn't want to be bitten by a large rabbit. Have you been scratched by a rabbit? It really hurts. Not quite as much as being scratched by a Siamese cat (I'll never forget that one) but I carry the scars from times when my mini-lops have scratched me. I really don't think putting rabbits in a school environment is helpful to the rabbits or all that safe for the pupils. Stressed buns attack. Look on YouTube for rabbit attacks. Imagine explaining that to parents.

I am in mixed feelings about this. My Daughters school has chickens but they are raised on the school premises to promote certain activities for enrichment they also use their eggs for school lunch's /dinner's, they also grow their own fruit and vegetables and I constantly see the field being harvested and cropped, the kids love it. They earn special time to go out there and it is great for children that are having some struggles. It is a huge field so lots of space. As i was growing up we always had school pets such as rabbits, Guinea pig's, Hamsters, Gerbils and fish we even had stick insects! and we were voted and chosen on who could take them home on weekends and school holidays, I remember being voted for the hamster and piggy once and was over joyed. Everybody loved the school pets! I even looked after the stick insects but some escaped :shock:. I do happen to agree with happy bun too. Rabbits scratch and it hurts a lot and can draw a lot of blood. My chest is scared with claw lines but I have never been bitten, i wouldn't want to be! I also do not think gravel is suitable as i would imagine it would get very uncomfortable especially as a Rabbits like to dig they might hurt themselves.

I think it depends on your available space and the age group of the children. Also to educate the children that they are animals and not soft cuddly toys to be picked up all the time, Rabbits really do not like being picked up, mine certainly don't like it.
Also some children never get the chance of caring for a pet or an animal and I think a school pet is the next best thing but they have to be taught responsibility. Also pets can really have a positive effect on children for all sorts of different reasons.

Anyway I am neither against it or fore it as i see both sides but I would not recommend the gravel as their base layer. xx

The rabbits would probably prefer to be on grass.

I would level and mesh over the area as it is, put a load of grit (gardening sand) mixed with a bit of compost over the top to about 1-2" deep and either turf it (more expensive) or use grass seed (much cheaper) and keep everything off it until it has grown enough to be walked on.

Some stepping stones across the area would be useful for access in bad weather (old paving slabs?).

I would also be worried about predators if the area is open. They certainly need to be put in a secure area when there is no-one supervising them.

I have had rabbits free-ranging in my front garden, which is a central lawn surrounded by shrubs and a solid fence. The shrubs are deep mulched with wood / bark chips. I have had no problems with them and the rabbits spent most of the time under the bushes. Freshly chipped wood (eg from tree surgeon / local council) may need a few weeks to settle down as it does go mouldy for a while, which isn't good for health. The bagged stuff is OK straight away.

I wouldn't be happy for rabbits to be on gravel, especially the bigger stuff. They won't be able to run properly and I suspect may get problems with their feet if that is the only substrate they are on.

Gravel and bark chips are impossible to keep clean.

Does the pen have a secure roof to it?

Gravel for a substrate wouldn't be suitable. I use playbark in my run, on top of weldmesh. It needs to be playbark, the other bagged stuff is treated and would be harmful if eaten (by rabbits or children)

I am lucky as mine are litter trained :thumb: and hardly ever poo in the run, I have to scrape out the bark and replace periodically. If they aren't litter trained they will use it as a big toilet.

I agree the top of the run needs to be roofed to protect from predators. My aviary run is done in weldmesh.

Thank you so much for your responses everyone.

To address some of the points made....

I do not see an issue with rabbits growing up surrounded by children. They would be raised inside the school building from very young but in an area where there would not be constant traffic so they could get some peace and quiet. The thing that causes fear and aggression in animals is them being put in stressful situation they are not used to. In my experience, if they get used to it as babies, they take it fully in their stride as adults.

The school has two pygmy goats, 22 chickens and 19 quail, all of which were raised around the children and who do not bat an eyelid at their presence. I understand concerns and I am not poo pooing them, just pointing out that it is in no way detrimental to their welfare to grow up around children as long as it is all done properly, under adult supervision. The reason for choosing Frenchies is also because, as a rule, they are large, friendly, docile and less threatened by kids as their size makes them feel less vulnerable than smaller rabbits.

As babies, there would be lots of picking up and handling, under supervision, to get them used to human contact but once fully grown, they would not be a 'pick up' animal for the children but a 'sit on the floor and feed and stroke' animal, thus removing the likelihood of scratching and biting as they would be free to move away when they wanted. Nothing ever guarantees against bites and scratches of course and this has been warned of and 'covered' in our risk assessments regarding the animals so parents know and accept this when they agree to let their kids in with the animals.

As for the housing/predator issue....the outer pen is approximately 20 x 20 METRES...pretty big! It has eight foot high fences and no, it isn't roofed. Within the outer pen, there is the inner pen that the rabbits would be in of about 25 x 15 FEET. The fence for this is about four feet high. Then there is the quail pen which has the same height fence as the outer pen but has a pea mesh 'roof' as the quail can fly!

The outer pen houses the 22 chickens and will also house the goats (currently in the intended rabbit pen). We have had the chicken and goats for almost 7 years and have never had any sign of predator issues, despite being in a VERY rural area of Gloucestershire. I personally believe this is because the goats are maybe big enough to deter any foxes to begin with but also that an eight foot fence is difficult (though not impossible) for a fox to scale and the whole fence has a two and a half foot wide 'apron' dug into the ground at its base to protect from anything digging its way in. Lastly, of course, having 200 kids running round the place, outside of the pen, and scenting it up also will act as a deterrant!

We have two pairs of buzzards living on site...one of which are nesting in the tree directly above the chicken pen. We also have frequent visits from Red Kite and a variety of smaller birds of prey. Again, never been an issue to the chickens.

Frenchies are pretty big rabbits. It would be a brave fox to try to take one, never mind two, on and British birds of prey just wouldn't even try for prey that big. Buzzards and Kites are predominantly carrion eaters but we have an enormous population of nice, small, easier to handle, wild rabbits to keep them fed should they feel the need.

Again guys, I am not poo pooing here but realistically, I think the predator thing really isn't much of an issue. I think if it was, we would have lost chickens before now and never have....not even when they were young, half grown and much easier to catch and eat.

As for substrate, maybe the play bark is a good suggestion here....thanks. Whatever was used would be placed on top of a full meshed floor to prevent digging anyway so that won't be a problem. I like the IDEA of turf but sadly, I think the rabbits would reduce it to nothing over time and we'd be right back where we started and the school can't afford that. Paying for new bark would be considerably cheaper in money and man hours than repeated replacement of turf in a pen that size and can be done as a nd when rather than all in one go.

Incidentally, I have spoken about all these things being owned or done by the school but in practice, I am the animal keeper. I have bred, incubated and reared all the chicken and quail myself, I own the goats personally and have raised them from five months old. I also have two gorgeous dwarf lop buns of my own....Daisy Dukes and Barny Rubble....who live at my home in a 4ft x 16ft shed with a 5ft x 25ft run so please rest assured, the Frenchies will be in good hands.....they would be much loved and fully supervised by me and I am a very strong advocate of animal health and welfare, especially buns who so often live out sad, much shortened lives, confined to undersized cages on inappropriate diets. I know my stuff with rabbit care, I've just never had to worry about substrate as my buns at home have always been on patio slabs.

Thanks again for all your help, it is much appreciated.

i think its important for children to grow up with animals and understanding them and their needs.
they are going to be are future and if they grow up with love for animals that can only be a good thing.
as long as they are supervised when caring and cleaning out the rabbits i can't see any problems.
rabbits like grass to nibble, it would add to their daily food intake and soft on their feet for running around on.
good luck.

Oh, I shall still put turf rolls in the pen for nibbling on....at home I 'grow' them on grow bag trays, it's very effective and the buns love it!!

I still remember that my very first school had a rabbit when i was about 5/6. I remember almost nothing about it except this.
It had a huge outside hutch and run and was beloved by the whole school. The waiting list to play with/look after the bun always seemed a mile long to me!
I think it's a very nice idea to have a rabbit within a school environment and its about time someone taught that they need a lot more than a 2ft hutch and some muesli every day to make them happy!
Hopefully the next generation of bunny keepers will start off better than we could ever imagine

Just to say I have seen a full grown and very feisty frenchie (seriously she shredded several staff members bless her) be taken by a fox. She was in a fully enclosed area with easily 8 foot fencing where the top few feet of fencing leaned outward in theory to stop it being climbed by foxes or cats (it being a cat rescue there were lots of semi feral cats about.)

Everything was fine for years, and then one night it wasn't, there were two grumpy French lop sisters, one was traumatised the other killed and dragged over the fence. There was 'evidence' left so we know it was a fox.

I think having children grow up around animals is a brilliant thing. I just think that rabbits are not suitable for a school environment, they are an easily frightened prey animal that hides it when they are stressed. I also don't think size has any baring on that. A rabbit has rabbity instincts, and that is that, I worked with rabbits of all shapes and sizes and a bigger bun does not mean a more confident bun.

I've only just seen this thread. I have posted recently about being bitten by our school rabbit the other day. I am a member of staff at the school, I have my own rabbit and I wasn't doing anything untoward to the rabbit. It has caused quite a big hoo-ha at the school and to be honest I really don't think rabbits are suitable school pets. I think the bite was out of stress/frustration about being surrounded by children. Thank goodness he decided to bit me and not one of the children! When I was at primary school we had two massive walk in hutches of guinea pigs, and that was fabulous! I think guinea pigs would be better than rabbits personally because rabbits can become very stressed out by loud noises/lots of people etc, even if you try and get them used to it when they are young.

PoppyRabbit said:

I still remember that my very first school had a rabbit when i was about 5/6. I remember almost nothing about it except this.
It had a huge outside hutch and run and was beloved by the whole school. The waiting list to play with/look after the bun always seemed a mile long to me!
I think it's a very nice idea to have a rabbit within a school environment and its about time someone taught that they need a lot more than a 2ft hutch and some muesli every day to make them happy!
Hopefully the next generation of bunny keepers will start off better than we could ever imagine

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These bunnies will be far too big to be looked after out of school....a hamster in a cage is one thing but two potentially 10lb or more buns and a cage big enough to house them....not on your nellie! Lol! I will care for the buns outside of school hours/term just like I do the goats, chicken and quail now but there is a rota for 'animal time' throughout the school and this is HUGELY popular. The kids get an allotted time slot per class and then further time is also given as a whole class reward too. I spend a large proportion of my time with these groups, emphasising the importance of the care and welfare of the animals....that no animal, whatever it may be, deserves to spend its whole life in cramped conditions on an unsuitable diet just because people don't do their research. As you said, if we can teach the next generation how to do it properly, think of the ongoing implications to all those future pets.

I understand people's concerns over animals in schools but it is just like the animals in zoos argument.....don't stop doing it, just do it properly and teach others to do it properly too!!

ImoT said:

I think guinea pigs would be better than rabbits personally because rabbits can become very stressed out by loud noises/lots of people etc, even if you try and get them used to it when they are young.

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I think the care is more important than the species, which is why I think what CharlieBabbit is doing is great. It sounds like a fab school! Our guinea pigs were ex-school piggies (they escaped) but OH knew them in the summer before they went to the school (they were only there for a month). When they came back they were different pigs, nervous and anxious. When we take them to the park (we take them in a cage top on the grass) we have to avoid children because the first time some children came close and they were clearly traumatised, wheeking and running to hide. Afterwards they were anxious for days. So when any animals are in schools they really need to be handled gently and calmly at all times.

To be honest, I'd dig down, lay the mesh and then put back the earth. I'd probably try grass seed, as depending on the size of the area you might find it's big enough the grass will survive, particularly if it has time to establish. A paving slab path would be good for winter. If the area is prone to getting wet/muddy adding so gravel/grit when you dig down to lay the mesh should help.

Rather than going for new with paving slabs, try the local freecycle/facebook selling sites. Often you can pick them up free/very cheap.

You'd don't have to pick one surface, in fact, I think it's nice enrichment to vary it. With a space that big I'd suggest getting creative. So I'd have some earthed over tunnels, areas outlined with bricks/paving and then in filled with grass/play bark etc. if you've got growing space, then leaving slots for tray means you can swap out trays of grass and refresh them.

It sounds like you'll have plenty of opportunity to litter train then, and I imagine you're neutering if you're getting two and having them around children - so they should be very clean. A tray inside their shed would be easy to clean for you too.