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Specialist talk on gut statis and bunny issues

cpayne

Warren Veteran
It was lovely meeting two RUers at the talk and hopefully they will add anything I've forgotten. The main things I got out of it are:

1. Vets are under subscribing metacam and that leads to a lot of gut statis or can help rabbits out of gut statis. Mark has helped hundreds of rabbits just by putting their metacam dosage up so please don't think you are going to overdose. As an example Doughnut can have 0.5ml three times a day and she is 1.2kg. He gives talks to vets and said it's one of the main issues he sees when people have come to him after being treated elsewhere.

A study of rabbits was done after being spayed or neuteured, some were given no metacam others were given high dosage. Students observed them and found hardly any differences in their behaviour as they hide pain so well. Never go home after a spay without metacam and if your rabbit is going into statis then you should give it metacam if you have it on hand and then syringe feed it. Don't just syringe feed it water, add a bit of critical care in or something to add a bit of taste. In America they do not subscribe any metrocloprimide or drugs for statis, they just feed them. Mark was saying about getting food into the rabbit and they feed them 24-40ml 4 times a day, that's what you should be aiming for. You shouldn't worry about there being a blockage as if a rabbit has a blockage it will become very unwell suddenly not have reduced fecal etc.

He gives intravenous metacloprimide, cisapride, some form of infracol to disperse the bubbles and put them on an IV drip or SC depending on how bad they are. They also syringe feed liquid and food.

2. Get your combined vaccination done 10-11 months. The vaccine seems to not be so effective after 11 months and he's seen cases of myxi. In 4 of the case one died.

3. For sore hock bandage the feet. This is the only way they will get better, vetbeds, fleeces are fine but the feet need to be bandaged in order to recover and also make sure they have metacam to take the pain away.

4. There's no point in giving surgery to rabbits if you're not going to get a lot of post surgery pain relief. A lot of rabbits have surgery for one thing but because they aren't given adequate pain relief they go into statis and die.

The main reasons rabbits go into statis is pain, stress and disease. Normally all three. The first thing to do at home is give metacam if you have any or start syringe feeding to get the stomach going.

Mark doesn't recommend ranitidine as it reduces the acidity in the stomach too much. He said you should never leave a rabbit for a day that hasn't eaten or drunk anything.

5. The sign of needing dental treatment is salivating but he said although you can examine rabbits teeth when they are awake the best thing to do examine is under GA as the spurs at the back are hidden by their tongue, so could be rubbing an ulcer on it but you wouldn't get to see that when they are awake.

It was so interesting and he showed two videos on how to get blood from a rabbit. He said blood tests are always good to do on a sick rabbit and also a radiography. Basically you need to find out what the underlying problem is and treat the statis but if surgery is needed the primary cause then you need to make sure you get pain relief after the surgery otherwise the statis will be back straight away.

I hope all this makes sense. He said a lot more so any questions feel free and I'll or someone else who went hopefully can answer it.
 
I think you said it all [emoji2] ...It really was very interesting and was great to meet other RU'ers. It certainly made things so much clearer about stasis.
Hopefully Mark will be giving more talks in the future.. could have listened for hours[emoji2]
 
Wow at the vaccination bit. Must remember to change my reminder in my diary, I think that means mine will be due theirs soon. Thank you for typing that out for us :) xx
 
You're welcome. Shame you missed it. He did say he would maybe give more talks. He touched on diseases which was interesting, like Fellie I could have listened for hours.

I'm going in June for Doughnut to get her vaccines and nail trim and going to try and meet up with Fellie, when are yours due, we could let the bunnies meet each other :)
 
I hope it helps a few people. It did worry me that the rabbits didn't act any different when they didn't get pain relief after a spay when you know how much pain they must be in. I was lucky and had lots of pain relief for Doughnut. Mark really did stress the need for more vets to up the dosage of metacam after surgery too and for rabbits to have post surgery pain relief. I know sometimes on here people have given a small amount of metacam and said their rabbit seems in pain and still isn't eating so hopefully they will now question the vet if it's enough. I'm obviously not encouraging people to overdose!!
 
Thank you for updating us :)

I wish all Vets realised just how important adequate pain relief is for Rabbits. Some of the situations regarding lack of pain relief we see mentioned on here really are :shock: :cry:
 
Thank you for updating us :)

I wish all Vets realised just how important adequate pain relief is for Rabbits. Some of the situations regarding lack of pain relief we see mentioned on here really are :shock: :cry:

I know that's why I'm trying to emphasise it as Mark did. I think vets are still subscribing under the old measures of 0.2ml which probably doesn't even touch the pain! Doughnut is only little at 1.2kg and I'm sure most rabbits are bigger than her so hopefully people will realise that if she can have 0.5ml three times a day they can give their rabbit more if they are on a really low dose. He also said to give metacam straight away if you notice they are not eating and going into gut statis. The videos were really interesting, it's nice to see what happens to your rabbit once it's passed to the experts.
 
I know that's why I'm trying to emphasise it as Mark did. I think vets are still subscribing under the old measures of 0.2ml which probably doesn't even touch the pain! Doughnut is only little at 1.2kg and I'm sure most rabbits are bigger than her so hopefully people will realise that if she can have 0.5ml three times a day they can give their rabbit more if they are on a really low dose. He also said to give metacam straight away if you notice they are not eating and going into gut statis. The videos were really interesting, it's nice to see what happens to your rabbit once it's passed to the experts.

Before finding C I went to a Vet who would only prescribe Metacam to be given once every THREE DAYS !! When I questioned this (well, OK, when I argued with her) she said if I wanted to kill my Rabbit by giving Metacam daily that was up to me :shock:

Mind you, she also told me vaccinating against VHD was a waste of time and money as 'VHD is almost impossible to transmit' :shock:

And I once took a bonded pair in as one needed a Dental. She operated on the wrong Rabbit !!

At that point I took my custom elsewhere.
 
Before finding C I went to a Vet who would only prescribe Metacam to be given once every THREE DAYS !! When I questioned this (well, OK, when I argued with her) she said if I wanted to kill my Rabbit by giving Metacam daily that was up to me :shock:

Mind you, she also told me vaccinating against VHD was a waste of time and money as 'VHD is almost impossible to transmit' :shock:

And I once took a bonded pair in as one needed a Dental. She operated on the wrong Rabbit !!

At that point I took my custom elsewhere.

Wow that is really scary. Surprised she didn't operate on you for the dental, at least she choose another rabbit :)

She obviously thought metacam lasted a long time rather than 12 hours. When you know more than your vet it's certainly time to go elsewhere.
 
CPayne thank you so much for posting all this! It sounds to have been a really interesting evening.

I was surprised to note that he feels the vaccination period is 11 months since the manufacturers would have tested the vaccine for 12 months - much better to err on the safe side :thumb:
 
Oooh interesting

Will definitely start vaccinating every 11 months

The pain relief thing is interesting too - I definitely agree bunnies should be prescribed pain relief in more cases and more consistently than they currently are, and that they have a faster metabolism so when they are prescribed it need more frequent doses, but Frances Harcourt-Brown disagreed with giving them higher doses/the maximum they could tolerate - from a rationale of humans 'can' take say 20 ibruprofen without dying, but only take 2, because 2 is enough. So she was advocating try a standard dose and if the bunny still shows signs of pain, up it, rather than dose them straight up with the max.

Also I would still not ever syringe feed until a vet had ruled out a blockage and told me it was ok

I agree re blood tests though - think they are a good test for bunnies and could be done more
 
CPayne thank you so much for posting all this! It sounds to have been a really interesting evening.

I was surprised to note that he feels the vaccination period is 11 months since the manufacturers would have tested the vaccine for 12 months - much better to err on the safe side :thumb:

He said the myxi cases he saw when they had been vaccined were in the last month of vaccination, I know there is a thread on here where someone's rabbit had myxi in the 11th month.
 
Thank you for the feedback :D
Luckily Aiden does prescribe high doses of metacam so him and Mark must be in agreement :wave:
 
Oooh interesting

Will definitely start vaccinating every 11 months

The pain relief thing is interesting too - I definitely agree bunnies should be prescribed pain relief in more cases and more consistently than they currently are, and that they have a faster metabolism so when they are prescribed it need more frequent doses, but Frances Harcourt-Brown disagreed with giving them higher doses/the maximum they could tolerate - from a rationale of humans 'can' take say 20 ibruprofen without dying, but only take 2, because 2 is enough. So she was advocating try a standard dose and if the bunny still shows signs of pain, up it, rather than dose them straight up with the max.

Also I would still not ever syringe feed until a vet had ruled out a blockage and told me it was ok

I agree re blood tests though - think they are a good test for bunnies and could be done more

Sorry I maybe didn't put it quite right. Mark was giving instances where a rabbit came in with a broken leg and was on a low dose and he was saying after surgery to give higher dosages and after being spayed. He was also giving examples that you can't tell if a rabbit is in pain like the study the students carried out. Frequent doses he certainly advocates. I think the standard dose has been upped as like you say rabbits have a faster metabolism and they go through them quicker.

He was saying you have different symptoms with a blockage, the rabbit is very unwell more suddenly as Happyhopper asked about that. She could probably give you a better answer.
 
Hi
yes I asked about the syringe feeding when you are unsure of whether it is a blockage or not.
With a blockage a rabbit will present itself in a very different way that perhaps a rabbit who may need a dental or other illness. It will appear a lot more sick than other illness and in his words "you would be able to tell the difference" in terms of how the rabbit is presenting itself and you would not hesitate to take it to the vets. He was perhaps referring to owners who knew their bunnies very well and monitored input/output.

It was a very good talk, I think cpayne covered all the main points brilliantly.
It was lovely to meet 2 other RUers :)
 
Hi
yes I asked about the syringe feeding when you are unsure of whether it is a blockage or not.
With a blockage a rabbit will present itself in a very different way that perhaps a rabbit who may need a dental or other illness. It will appear a lot more sick than other illness and in his words "you would be able to tell the difference" in terms of how the rabbit is presenting itself and you would not hesitate to take it to the vets. He was perhaps referring to owners who knew their bunnies very well and monitored input/output.

It was a very good talk, I think cpayne covered all the main points brilliantly.
It was lovely to meet 2 other RUers :)

I've had 3 who were 'surgical' regarding blockages. Little Dot was the only one that I was extremely concerned about. Elijah didn't reach critical point until nearly 24 hours after he was admitted (interestingly he blew up like a balloon after he was syringe fed at the vets, they decided to take this action given how long it was since he'd eaten).

Gracie was the most recent, there was no way I'd have known from her demeanour that it wasn't 'just another stasis episode' (it was the first time for her having a not eating episode). I don't think syringe feeding without a vet checking for blockages first is something I will ever feel confident to do.
 
Mine were due right at the start of August so i'll probably take them sometime in June, got a couple of photo jobs at the start of the month so probably end of June.
 
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