Bladder 'crystals', cystitis and hay type

Hello all, I have a question for anyone knowledgeable on these subjects.

I continue to have issues with Pip, who went into full blown stasis at the beginning of the week and still appears to be having some difficulty. (Please see this thread: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?442904-Pip-U-D-post-55-Fully-recovered-I-hope-%29 )

I ran out of the usual hay that they eat earlier in the week and thought that might be why she went into ileus, as she didn't seem to eat at all after I couldn't provide it and then stopped drinking too. The result was an overnight stay in hospital that I would certainly not like to repeat. Jane thought it was cystitis (and considering Pip's past problems, I tend to agree) so I had the vet check Pip's urine but they claim they only found crystals and thought the whole thing was just a freak stasis episode.

The reorder of hay arrived yesterday and I gave them all some last night. It's a third cut timothy with no seedheads and little stalky bits, easier for old bunny teeth to chew. They've enjoyed this hay for years and except for a bad batch last summer full of brown leaf and that had us all itching from straw mites, it's been darned good stuff.

So after having a bit of this new box of timothy, I noticed today that Pip is starting to hold herself a bit funny again, lifting her tail and leaving small piddles in places other than her litterbox. She was not doing this after she recovered from her stasis and was eating only a small amount of oat hay and orchard grass by Oxbow.
I also saw some alarming color to a spot on her bedding today that I would swear was blood, but not sure if it came from her front or rear end as it looked like a mark she might have made while licking up the crumbs of her favorite treat on her bedding. I don't see anything resembling blood on either end of her, but that was what it looked like to me. I realize that certain foods can cause bunny urine to resemble blood but I've only seen a rust color come from her before, this looked really different. She did piddle a bit on a puppy pad about an hour ago that just looks brownish and silty...no sign of red or orange coloring.

Naturally I did not discover this until after hours again. I've been with her all day though and not noticed any other odd behaviour other than the occasional lifting tail and a bit more grumpiness on her part. Her eyes don't look as 'relaxed' as they were after she recovered from being at the vets. It's also stoking today (temps in the 70's-80's F) and I think we're all a little grouchy as a result. But what has alarmed me more is that she's not really drinking much again and in this heat that is imperative.

I cleared all the timothy out of her enclosure this morning and only replaced it with orchard. Tonight she is happily munching away at it and seems a bit better, not quite so tense. The ambient temperature has cooled considerably. I also had to clean her anal glands, they were packed full and I'm shocked the vet didn't do it, they had to have seen it since they obviously cleaned the rest of her botty and feet on Tuesday/Wednesday.

She is in and out of the litterbox and I'm not sure if it's to pee or poo, but at least she's not tummy pressing from what I can see. But I am now concerned that the timothy may have something else in it that is causing these episodes of bladder discomfort in her and I want to avoid it at all costs. (And of course I just shipped this box up, 25 lbs of it, and can't seem to use it for her, not sure I should use it for any of them, but Mimzy will only eat this or oat hay so I kind of have no choice with him. )
I am finding some odd weed like pieces that I actually had to wrangle one away from her last night. I'm not certain what it was and didn't think to keep it to show to either the vet or try to identify online, like the idiot I am. :roll: However, it is not a weed that I haven't seen before in this hay, much more so in the last few years and it tends to show up right before the quality of this hay goes pear shaped for awhile.

So on to my question after all that drivel...can timothy cause cystitis? Or oat? Or could there be something like alfalfa in the timothy (perhaps this was the weed I saw) that Pip is finding and eating that would be the source of her bladder issues?

Many TIA for any and all replies. :wave: xxxx

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice, but hugs and vibes for you and Pip. xxx

Thank you, Den
Just bumping this up. Has anyone had experience with certain hays causing bladder problems in older bunnies, please? And may I add certain greens as well? (Pip has been recently eating both kale and green leaf lettuce which I stopped giving after her stasis episode but I think these have contributed more to a wind problem than bladder silt.)
Thank you. xxxx

i've not noticed with urine no, but have with gas/stasis. bisc had a bad episode after having oat hay. the seed heads are very rich in oat hay (and other hays apparently) and he just couldn't tolerate them. neither could matt actually, but he didn't get as much tummy trouble as bisc from it.

i didn't see your other thread as haven't been on as much. sorry to hear that pip hasn't been well x

Timothy hay is highly unlikely to cause bladder problems. Did the Vet take an abdominal Xray when Pip was admitted ?

I still think bladder sludge may be an issue. Did the Vet perform Cystocentesis to obtain an uncontaminated urine sample to send for culture and sensitivity testing. C+S testing cannot be done from a voided or manually expressed sample as it is likely to be contaminated and thus any results obtained may be inaccurate/misleading.

Sorry for rushed reply xx

i was thinking of starting a thread actually asking about timothy hay because i've seen some people mention lately that it is sugary?! i never knew this and wonder if they mean it is richer?? :? benjie piggy had a big weight increase after we started getting the timothy hay from timothyhay.co.uk and it got me thinking. the dreaded thinking! :roll:

MimzMum said:

Thank you, Den
Just bumping this up. Has anyone had experience with certain hays causing bladder problems in older bunnies, please? And may I add certain greens as well? (Pip has been recently eating both kale and green leaf lettuce which I stopped giving after her stasis episode but I think these have contributed more to a wind problem than bladder silt.)
Thank you. xxxx

Click to expand...

Hi Mimz Mum :wave:

I only have experience of alfalfa hay causing bladder problems. I have switched buns onto timothy hay to avoid bladder problems. With greens - I avoid kale and parsley in bladder compromised buns.

Hope this helps? xx

I found this info on third cut timothy.

"3rd cutting timothy hay characteristics

-Typically harvested late summer/early fall.

-Fiber content is significantly lower than first and second cutting timothy hay. The analysis of a 3rd cutting timothy hay can look similar to an alfalfa analysis (it is a richer hay with lower fiber and higher protein).

-Third cutting timothy hay is super soft…almost like grass clippings. There is minimal stems and heads. If you can find good quality third cutting timothy hay, small pets tend to love it…but it is important to understand the reason they love it is because it is so rich. It is not really doing a great job of providing fiber and chewing material they need because it is almost all leaf and no stem. For this reason we would not recommend third cutting for adult small pets, however it could be very useful for babies especially if you are trying to ease them off to alfalfa and into a grass hay."

Since alfalfa is high in calcium, this could suggest that third cut timothy may also be. You could try emailing the company that you bought the third cut from, and ask if they have a nutrient analysis of the hay that they could give you.

Jbun said:

I found this info on third cut timothy.

"3rd cutting timothy hay characteristics

-Typically harvested late summer/early fall.

-Fiber content is significantly lower than first and second cutting timothy hay. The analysis of a 3rd cutting timothy hay can look similar to an alfalfa analysis (it is a richer hay with lower fiber and higher protein).

-Third cutting timothy hay is super soft…almost like grass clippings. There is minimal stems and heads. If you can find good quality third cutting timothy hay, small pets tend to love it…but it is important to understand the reason they love it is because it is so rich. It is not really doing a great job of providing fiber and chewing material they need because it is almost all leaf and no stem. For this reason we would not recommend third cutting for adult small pets, however it could be very useful for babies especially if you are trying to ease them off to alfalfa and into a grass hay."

Since alfalfa is high in calcium, this could suggest that third cut timothy may also be. You could try emailing the company that you bought the third cut from, and ask if they have a nutrient analysis of the hay that they could give you.

Click to expand...

Really interesting JBun, thank you :thumb:

Thanks everyone
Wow, Jbun, that is interesting. :shock: What I had read also was that alfalfa and timothy are often planted together, so some cross-pollination and combined yield could be happening...plus how do you harvest one and keep the other out if it is all mingling together?

I never knew the third cut was so rich. I just have gotten it for years because my three can be picky about seedheads and stems (plus I am allergic to most hays and the seedheads are so full of pollen I practically lived on Benadryl one year, my reaction to it was so bad.)
I have tried to get answers from the hay company, especially when their hay was full of mites last year, but they are not particularly forthcoming. I think maybe we're just going to have to steer clear of it in future, but it's definitely going to cost me more to have to go the orchard grass route.

Jane, I don't know if the vet did the cystocentesis or a C&S testing. I'll have to check my invoice but on recall alone I don't think I saw anything like that. Disappointing as the total was outrageous even for an overnight stay and I would've thought all the bells and whistles would've been covered for that price. :?
Since removing the third cut timothy Pip is doing a lot better, but I can tell Fiver is grumpy because he prefers the softer hay. He is eating the orchard but he's not a happy bunny. Jeeze, you just can't please everyone! :roll:

Mimzy still seems to be eating the timothy fine, but I know with how much of a lump he is this is going to cause bladder issues in him if what Jbun said is what is occurring. I really can't get him to eat anything other than this though, and occasionally some oat hay, so I am at a loss here. He will not touch hay that is stalky in any way, shape or form (he deftly picks out the softest pieces from the oat and leaves the rest as a mess for the slave to tidy up! :lol: ) but hopefully we'll get some rain here in the next few weeks or so and the hayseed in the yard will finally grow (it has been so dry here, humidity down to below 13%) and maybe some dandelions will pop up as well. Our forage is so thin, not just this year but in the last two or so and I miss being able to feed them all fresh, clean food from the garden. (And that's another issue I'll make a different thread for.)

Thanks very much everyone. Again, RU'ers come to the rescue! xxxx