Just don't know what to do anymore - unhappy buns

Apologies for any spelling/grammar errors - it's late and I'm typing this on my mobile.

I will try to be as brief as possible. I posted a while ago with a situation that just hasn't been resolved.

1 year ago this month: we adopted a brother and sister neutered and spayed pair from RSPCA. Very happy bunnies - some minor scraps and lot of humping but fine.

4 months after this: My brother asks us to watch his rabbit while he and wife go on holiday. Bunny comes here in hutch and is separated from our 2. However, I noticed the bunny was overweight and had NO toys in her cage as well as being on her own which made me really sad and quite cross with said brother and wide. We ask him to adopt the bun because we believed we would be giving her a better life. They never really bothered with her and were at work 9-5 weekdays and out all weekend with a baby on the way. We thought it was for the best and planned to get her a friend. Brother and wife agreed - they obviously didn't mean to neglect her but hadn't realised how much time they would need to invest maybe. So - bunny 3 comes to stay.

During this time: we are sectioning off parts of the garden and blocking bunnies from each other which seemed to work for that time.

A few weeks later: bunny 3 has lost weight but I still feel she is lonely and in need of a friend. A lovely RSPCA rabbit foster mum in our area bonds her at her house with a male. We bring bunnies home.

Oh how naive.

We placed 2 separate cages beside each other - first mistake. When original 2 buns are allowed out for their time - it kicks off. Nothing horrendous as mum intervened but fur pulling etc. We moved the cage out of sight and still tried to share the garden at different times for different pairs. 2 original buns displaying referred aggression whenever they are out - spraying and chasing and pulling fur. Dad for a few bites on the ankle when trying to split up fight.

Mum is so distressed by this she wants to send the new RSPCA bun back so that 3rd bun is alone again. Dad and I try to persuade her to keep trying but she is very upset and the whole situation is bleak.
Bun 4 goes back. Mum thinks the 2 of them weren't that happy anyways as the new bun was humping bun 3 a lot and she kept running away but they also groomed sometimes and were getting to know each other.

Current day about 8 months later and I feel I'm in rabbit hell and like a really bad person and rabbit owner. In my mind these are the problems:

Bun 3 is still alone. She is also separated in another area is the garden with a waist high fence around her to block other buns. I feel bad that she has to look at a fence but she does play out in her small area too. She gets access to the garden but I just feel monstrous that she is alone. She must be so lonely and unhappy. She is 3 and it's all she has ever really known but that's such a sad life.

Other provlem: 2 original buns having hellish time in garden when it's their turn - due to referred aggression I am sure. They both sniff around warily - obviously smelling bun 3s scent. Every time they go near each other petty much the male sticks his tail right in the air and so the female chases him and they go for each other and we have to sepweate them. Female is fine on her own in garden but they can't seem to get on at all in there now since they can smell bun 3. Make bun is clearly so on edge and wary he can't even enjoy himself and just hangs around his cage sniffing it - which is weird because bun 3 doesn't have access to that area even when she is out! When they go back in cage they are best buds again. They can't even SEE her it's just the smell which makes it so difficult!

I just feel awful. Bun 3 is clearly lonely and isolated which makes me feel like her life isn't that much better although she binkys around the garden happily and has lost so much weight. I feel terrible about bun 4 who we sent back and I feel terrible that my 2 original buns will never really enjoy the garden again and will never get over referred aggression! And yet, when we got them from RSPCA they were next to other rabbit cages and didn't fight! They are happy most the time though which profes to me that bun 3 also need a pal - mum disagrees but she's scared too after what happened bedore

I have thought about bonding them as a trio but in all honesty I don't think they are right as a bond. Original 2 are super close when alone and I wouldn't want to weaken that and I know that it would benefit bun 3 but I just want her to have her OWN friend.

I know we have made some mistakes here resulting in a rubbish situation but we didn't intend to so please don't think badly of us! I realise it's a long post but please I could really do with some advice or even just answers if anyone has any. We just want them to be happy buns.

I feel for you I really do. I don't think you should feel bad as you are simply trying to improve things for bun 3 and okay so it's not worked out for now but you are clearly putting in the effort with all three and they are lucky to have you to do that as many bunnies are simply not that lucky.

So it's not working well for now but I'm sure that you ought to be able to find a way round it that will suit all three.

I might suggest that a sibling relationship (or a parent child one) is more likely in my experience see referred aggression of this type because they aren't 'in love' and so truly bonded as a husbun and wife might be. This is only based on my personal experience - and I have had lots as I have a rescue with over 60 rabbits in it at the moment and a good number of years worth of watching bunnies. I bond here so I also believe that siblings are more likely to break down when the bond is put under pressure. So all you can do is help them to not feel the pressure.

I do think it's important to understand that them being at the RSPCA near other bunnies is probably not the same as them being in a garden where they perceive the space to be theirs only to find that when they aren't in a particular part of the garden (if I am understanding your post correctly) that another bunny is using it?

They are just trying to mark or own and manage their territory and as they can't get to the bunny who is sharing it they take it out on each other. At the RSPCA I imagine they had their own space and it was not shared by others during their stay?

Is there anyway in which you can divide the area that they use so that they both have permanent space that they use full time and is only used by them and not both sets of bunnies?

I don't think that while they are sharing that you will resolve the squabbling.

The Duchess said:

I feel for you I really do. I don't think you should feel bad as you are simply trying to improve things for bun 3 and okay so it's not worked out for now but you are clearly putting in the effort with all three and they are lucky to have you to do that as many bunnies are simply not that lucky.

So it's not working well for now but I'm sure that you ought to be able to find a way round it that will suit all three.

I might suggest that a sibling relationship (or a parent child one) is more likely in my experience see referred aggression of this type because they aren't 'in love' and so truly bonded as a husbun and wife might be. This is only based on my personal experience - and I have had lots as I have a rescue with over 60 rabbits in it at the moment and a good number of years worth of watching bunnies. I bond here so I also believe that siblings are more likely to break down when the bond is put under pressure. So all you can do is help them to not feel the pressure.

I do think it's important to understand that them being at the RSPCA near other bunnies is probably not the same as them being in a garden where they perceive the space to be theirs only to find that when they aren't in a particular part of the garden (if I am understanding your post correctly) that another bunny is using it?

They are just trying to mark or own and manage their territory and as they can't get to the bunny who is sharing it they take it out on each other. At the RSPCA I imagine they had their own space and it was not shared by others during their stay?

Is there anyway in which you can divide the area that they use so that they both have permanent space that they use full time and is only used by them and not both sets of bunnies?

I don't think that while they are sharing that you will resolve the squabbling.

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Thanks so much for your reply. It makes sense what you had said about siblings as they do often have spats if they come in the house too but nothing like the garden where it's very tense. In their cage they are inseparable pretty much.

Yes that's right - a silly comparison for me to make really. They were next to other bunnies cages but never shared areas. I have tried to explain to my dad that it's the smell of the other bunny but he won't believe it - he said because the male bun sniffs all around the cage and there's a lot of chasing there - even though bunny 3 can't get to it - he said he thinks it's something else. I have explained that the garden needs to be split and I agree with this too. The worry I have is: will they smell her on the other side of tjthe fence? My mum is concerned about that but I said it's still better than sharing.

The other question is: once the garden is sepweared in half - how long will it take for bunnies 3 scent to go away from their part of the garden? I'm worries that it will be there for ever. I will take some photos of their set up today and post them.

Would keeping one pair as house rabbits be an option at all?
We have one indoor pair and one outdoor pair. If either of the indoor bunnies ever went outside, the original outdoor pair couldn't tolerate it at all and it would set them off fighting, even thought they were never sharing the same space. We tried splitting the garden for a while so the indoor buns could still have outdoor playtime, but we never really came to a suitable a arrangement, so now the indoor buns just don't go outside. They never liked it that much anyway I don't think so this works fine for us.

I know you mentioned bonding as a trio. I had a similar situation 2 pairs and one pair kept fighting so I re homed one bunny and bonded the single with the other two to make a trio. It really is worth a try. What are are you in? I'm wondering if a rescue attempting to bind the three in neutral territory away from your house is worth a go.

These are the images of the set up - a little bit messy atm.

This is where the original 2 are with Pebbles photobombing in the corner :



I don't usually separate these 2 but I gave it a go today with this little fence:





The garden which they are currently sharing at different times - bun 1 and 2 together (tense) and bun 3 on her own. The fence is where Coco's area starts - her hutch is inside here.



This is Coco's area (bun 3) She is blocked off which is annoying but safer for all:





We let her play out in this area too which she does like but she LOVES the garden - the most active of all 3 buns:





They seemed a bit lost whilst separated but then did some chasing when they were both let out together again. They're back in the hutch now after they heard some noises and wanted to go back in. Bun 3 now about to go out. I realise this makes it worse again for when the other 2 buns go back out but I don't want to trap her when she loves the garden. I'm going to speak to Dad tonight about it as he said he was willing to extend Coco's area to make it longer and wider justfor her space but she loves the garden so much.

What are the chances of the aggression stopping once they are in different areas all the time? Will they still fight as there areas are too close when playing out?

Lady Logamorph said:

I know you mentioned bonding as a trio. I had a similar situation 2 pairs and one pair kept fighting so I re homed one bunny and bonded the single with the other two to make a trio. It really is worth a try. What are are you in? I'm wondering if a rescue attempting to bind the three in neutral territory away from your house is worth a go.

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Hi thanks for reply. I don't know of anyone in my area (Hull) who would do this. Our local RSPCA wouldn't even bond one of our rabbits with one of theirs when we wanted to match Coco with a make. Must not have time or resources. I've never bonded myself and would hate for any bun to be left out or for the siblings' bond to break. Whilst coco - bun 3 - is very calm. The other 2 are younger and quite fussy I'm not sure it would be the best dynamic. Particularly the male. I know I sound defeatist but I think I'm just trying to be very cautious. Always get the feeling with trios that one is left out a bit. Also, some of the videos I've watched of bonding a trio I find horrific because I'm so new to it so it just looks to me like the bunnies are having a horrid time - I know it's not like that but clearly you need nerves of steel for it!

Could bun 3 become a house bun therefore completely separating the bunnies and letting buns 1 and 2 settle down?Bun 3 could still be bonded in the future but might help things settle abit.

I think the problem is Buns 1 and 2 can smell Bun 3 but can't see her. It would be better if they could see one another, so instead of a fence between them, wire would work better. They would then settle down with this arrangement.

tonibun said:

I think the problem is Buns 1 and 2 can smell Bun 3 but can't see her. It would be better if they could see one another, so instead of a fence between them, wire would work better. They would then settle down with this arrangement.

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Hi thanks for your reply. Why is seeing her likely to change the behaviour? I am worried it might make this worse and make them more aggressive?

When we made the first mistake of putting the cages next to each other - my male rabbit (bun 1) seemed to try and bite bun 3 through the wire mesh.

Not sure if its been suggested, but is it possible to attach a run to each hutch so that the majority of the time they have an enclosed space to call thete own. Then perhaps introduce free ranging in part of the garden gradually. My two sets of rabbits cannot see each other or they go mad. I now mainly use a run for each set and i haven't had any more issues.

Dolores22 said:

Hi thanks for your reply. Why is seeing her likely to change the behaviour? I am worried it might make this worse and make them more aggressive?

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I have lots of enclosures with free range rabbits running past and if there is any referred aggression it is always the ones in their enclosures which start to chase. Not being able to see a rabbit but can smell it really seems to annoy them. The only thing to watch out for is if Bun 3 goes up to Buns 1 and 2's enclosure.

lucy24 said:

Not sure if its been suggested, but is it possible to attach a run to each hutch so that the majority of the time they have an enclosed space to call thete own. Then perhaps introduce free ranging in part of the garden gradually. My two sets of rabbits cannot see each other or they go mad. I now mainly use a run for each set and i haven't had any more issues.

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Thank you for the reply Lucy. I have tried this - this morning for example. I blocked off bun 3 in her area. I then used wood to block off the other 2 buns (however it was the same wood I use to block off bun 3 so may have had her scent on.) They played in a small area on pavement next to their cage and couldn't get to the garden. They were okay for a while but then some chasing began so I brought them in the house. It's strange but they seem HYPERSENSITIVE to the smell. I can't work out who is going for who. The male sticks his tail in the air which the female seems to hurt so she runs at him and chases him. But then I think other times the female chases him for no reason. I am going to persist with the separate runs even though it's a shame they can't enjoy the garden but I'm starting to think that even the slightest smell is going to set them off.

tonibun said:

I have lots of enclosures with free range rabbits running past and if there is any referred aggression it is always the ones in their enclosures which start to chase. Not being able to see a rabbit but can smell it really seems to annoy them. The only thing to watch out for is if Bun 3 goes up to Buns 1 and 2's enclosure.

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Is it single free range rabbits you have who run past the enclosure? A lady who we know fosters buns and she says she lets different pairs out at different times and she has a lot of pairs - she told us the rabbits would get used to it as hers did but they also spray all over the garden. I'm relieved that this behaviour seems to be normal after what you've said. Have you also tried a set up where the bunnies can see each other? What effect did that have?

I think if I were in your position I would attempt to bond them all together, my lionlops would get minor referred agression (they are also brother and sister) when they got too close to Noah, but that didn't stop them bonding as a trio. Do you have anyone who could help you bond? Where are you based?

catherine09 said:

I think if I were in your position I would attempt to bond them all together, my lionlops would get minor referred agression (they are also brother and sister) when they got too close to Noah, but that didn't stop them bonding as a trio. Do you have anyone who could help you bond? Where are you based?

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When you say minor referred aggression what kind of behaviour was that? Ours girl will chase the boy into a cage and back him up into a corner but we've never seen a proper fight - we always intervene at the chasing. They have pulled fur etc. is that minor? I don't know anyone who would bond our own 3 rabbits for us. I'm based in Hull which is a bloody nightmare for anything like this. East Yorkshire but id be willing to drive. The only problem is - where would they all love together? We have 2 perfectly good 2 storey cages and I assume we'd have to g anew one in order to make it neutral but that seems very small.

Dolores22 said:

Is it single free range rabbits you have who run past the enclosure? A lady who we know fosters buns and she says she lets different pairs out at different times and she has a lot of pairs - she told us the rabbits would get used to it as hers did but they also spray all over the garden. I'm relieved that this behaviour seems to be normal after what you've said. Have you also tried a set up where the bunnies can see each other? What effect did that have?

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My rabbits don't spray - they are neutered. And yes I have bonded pairs that run past enclosures. This is the most difficult time of the year to do this sort of thing, even though they are neutered they still act as if they aren't :roll: I try to keep it as low key as possible - personalities also play a part. I have rabbits in enclosures who don't mind some rabbits passing, but the odd rabbit or two they don't like one bit!

This year seems to be quite bad for aggressive behaviour - the weather is good. I think you should have 2 areas for now so they can't upset one another, then try again in the autumn.