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Chronic liver failure, snuffles, dental problems and E.C

lilgems91

Mama Doe
Ben was diagnosed with chronic liver failure yesterday after a blood test was ran due to rapid weight loss. The vet has told me the results for the liver enzymes were off the scales.

The complications I have with Ben are that he has not so long ago had EC and lost the movement in one side if his face even though he had ongoing treatment. He also has very bad snuffles which he is currently on medication for.

His teeth are the big problem here as he desperately needs a dental as his teeth are very long and causing ulcers in his mouth. Because of his liver results the vet said the outcome looks bleak.

She has changed his antibiotics to septrin twice daily to help his snuffles and also in the chance it is a liver infection the antibiotics may help.

I have been told to avoid metacam, however he is still allowed a daily dose of bisolvon and to finish his course of panacur off.

In a total dilemma here RU. He needs a dental but can't have one as the vet thinks he won't make it through the anaesthetic, without having a dental his teeth are causing mega pain but he can't have metacam.

He is wanting to eat but struggling as his teeth are so bad. It's such a viscous circle, and I have no idea what to do! The vet wants to see him again Monday but has told me to think about the course of action.

Has anyone had advice on liver failure in rabbits? Am I doing everything I can possibly do?
 
Ben was diagnosed with chronic liver failure yesterday after a blood test was ran due to rapid weight loss. The vet has told me the results for the liver enzymes were off the scales.

The complications I have with Ben are that he has not so long ago had EC and lost the movement in one side if his face even though he had ongoing treatment. He also has very bad snuffles which he is currently on medication for.

His teeth are the big problem here as he desperately needs a dental as his teeth are very long and causing ulcers in his mouth. Because of his liver results the vet said the outcome looks bleak.

She has changed his antibiotics to septrin twice daily to help his snuffles and also in the chance it is a liver infection the antibiotics may help.

I have been told to avoid metacam, however he is still allowed a daily dose of bisolvon and to finish his course of panacur off.

In a total dilemma here RU. He needs a dental but can't have one as the vet thinks he won't make it through the anaesthetic, without having a dental his teeth are causing mega pain but he can't have metacam.

He is wanting to eat but struggling as his teeth are so bad. It's such a viscous circle, and I have no idea what to do! The vet wants to see him again Monday but has told me to think about the course of action.

Has anyone had advice on liver failure in rabbits? Am I doing everything I can possibly do?

I wonder if you can find a vet who will do a conscious dental for you? I have two vets who do this for my rabbits where necessary, and it always works out fine. They do have to be very experienced vets though.

I'm so sorry to hear the results of Ben's blood tests.
 
Ben was diagnosed with chronic liver failure yesterday after a blood test was ran due to rapid weight loss. The vet has told me the results for the liver enzymes were off the scales.

The complications I have with Ben are that he has not so long ago had EC and lost the movement in one side if his face even though he had ongoing treatment. He also has very bad snuffles which he is currently on medication for.

His teeth are the big problem here as he desperately needs a dental as his teeth are very long and causing ulcers in his mouth. Because of his liver results the vet said the outcome looks bleak.

She has changed his antibiotics to septrin twice daily to help his snuffles and also in the chance it is a liver infection the antibiotics may help.

I have been told to avoid metacam, however he is still allowed a daily dose of bisolvon and to finish his course of panacur off.

In a total dilemma here RU. He needs a dental but can't have one as the vet thinks he won't make it through the anaesthetic, without having a dental his teeth are causing mega pain but he can't have metacam.

He is wanting to eat but struggling as his teeth are so bad. It's such a viscous circle, and I have no idea what to do! The vet wants to see him again Monday but has told me to think about the course of action.

Has anyone had advice on liver failure in rabbits? Am I doing everything I can possibly do?


Poor Bun :cry: I think if he were mine and if he seemed to still be in good spirits and seeming to want to fight on I would want my Vet to risk the GA/Dental. Obviously the risk would be significant, but as you say he cant go on as he is as he cant eat due to his Dental problems. This will only get worse, not better. There are other pain killers he could have instead of Metacam. It must be horrible for him to have such an ulcerated mouth and nothing to dull the pain.

I am really sorry to hear how unwell he is :cry:
 
Poor Bun :cry: I think if he were mine and if he seemed to still be in good spirits and seeming to want to fight on I would want my Vet to risk the GA/Dental. Obviously the risk would be significant, but as you say he cant go on as he is as he cant eat due to his Dental problems. This will only get worse, not better. There are other pain killers he could have instead of Metacam. It must be horrible for him to have such an ulcerated mouth and nothing to dull the pain.

I am really sorry to hear how unwell he is :cry:

Do you have any idea of pain killers he could have that aren't metacam?

I did mention to the vets about risking it and trying the dental, but she did remind me that this would need to be repeated every 4 weeks or so, and his liver would not cope with it :(

As long as he is happy and fighting I will do everything I can for him.

Thank you Jane
 
I wonder if you can find a vet who will do a conscious dental for you? I have two vets who do this for my rabbits where necessary, and it always works out fine. They do have to be very experienced vets though.

I'm so sorry to hear the results of Ben's blood tests.

I don't know of any in my area who will do a conscious dental...where are the ones based who you use?

Can this be done as it's at the very back of the mouth?
 
I don't know of any in my area who will do a conscious dental...where are the ones based who you use?

Can this be done as it's at the very back of the mouth?

My Vet is of the opinion that any treatment of the molar teeth cannot be thoroughly addressed in a conscious Rabbit. Has he been needing a Dental every 4 weeks prior to his current illness ? If not then it is not necessarily the case that he would require treatment every 4 weeks. I assume that his partial facial paralysis is contributing to his dental problems ?

Was he blood tested to obtain the EC diagnosis ?

An alternative analgesic your Vet may consider is a low dose of an opiate such as Buprenorphine. But really unless his Dental problems are sorted out no amount of analgesia is going to rectify the primary cause of pain- ie his teeth.

I believe that Fenbendazole (Panacur) has been known to cause some changes in Liver function, but I think they were only seen after the administration of a very high dose. Maybe you could ask the Vet about this ?

Milk Thistle can be useful to support Liver function. Perhaps you could ask the Vet about giving him some of this

http://www.baldwins.co.uk/herbs/ext...r-milkthistle-alcohol-free-fluid-extract-30ml
 
Do you have any idea of pain killers he could have that aren't metacam?

I did mention to the vets about risking it and trying the dental, but she did remind me that this would need to be repeated every 4 weeks or so, and his liver would not cope with it :(

As long as he is happy and fighting I will do everything I can for him.

Thank you Jane

Unfortunately rabbits are prey animals, so are designed to keep fighting until they're really overcome with pain. I would do as Jane said, even though you risk losing him under anaesthetic. Dental pain is really bad and without painkillers he's having to be really brave to keep going. It's a really tough decision but his long term prognosis is bleak anyway; with that in mind I wouldn't personally risk him being in dental pain. So sorry you're in this situation. :(
 
Unfortunately rabbits are prey animals, so are designed to keep fighting until they're really overcome with pain. I would do as Jane said, even though you risk losing him under anaesthetic. Dental pain is really bad and without painkillers he's having to be really brave to keep going. It's a really tough decision but his long term prognosis is bleak anyway; with that in mind I wouldn't personally risk him being in dental pain. So sorry you're in this situation. :(

I agree. It sounds like an awful situation, where's there's no real 'winner' so to speak, but if he was my rabbit I'd acknowledge that I may well lose him under anaesthetic, but I'd do it anyway. That way, even if I did lose him, I'd know I was trying to help him.

It must be so hard for you :( I hope you can reach a decision you're happy with xx
 
I don't know of any in my area who will do a conscious dental...where are the ones based who you use?

Can this be done as it's at the very back of the mouth?

One vet is in North London and another in West London. They have done conscious dentals on my rabbits for the last 20 years and I would trust them with my rabbits' lives. One of my rabbits cannot have a GA under ANY circumstances, and hers have been successfully trimmed for her whole life - currently 12 years :)

Some vets are just not confident with doing the procedure, and it's much better they say that than try and do something they are not happy doing
 
My Vet is of the opinion that any treatment of the molar teeth cannot be thoroughly addressed in a conscious Rabbit. Has he been needing a Dental every 4 weeks prior to his current illness ? If not then it is not necessarily the case that he would require treatment every 4 weeks. I assume that his partial facial paralysis is contributing to his dental problems ?

Was he blood tested to obtain the EC diagnosis ?

An alternative analgesic your Vet may consider is a low dose of an opiate such as Buprenorphine. But really unless his Dental problems are sorted out no amount of analgesia is going to rectify the primary cause of pain- ie his teeth.

I believe that Fenbendazole (Panacur) has been known to cause some changes in Liver function, but I think they were only seen after the administration of a very high dose. Maybe you could ask the Vet about this ?

Milk Thistle can be useful to support Liver function. Perhaps you could ask the Vet about giving him some of this

http://www.baldwins.co.uk/herbs/ext...r-milkthistle-alcohol-free-fluid-extract-30ml


I have just ordered some milk thistle, thank you Jane.

He has been on a long 28 day of panacur which he is just coming to the end of..could that possibly contribute to the high liver levels?

No the vet didn't mention testing the blood for an EC diagnosis, would this be worth doing?

Just wish I could stop him being in pain, love my little man to bits, and been through so much with him in the 4 years I have had him.

I did mention to the vets about risking the GA, but she did point out that if he was to go peacefully after the procedure I wouldn't have been there with him, yet if he was pts I would be with him the whole time.

This is the hardest decision I have ever had to make :'(
 
I can't offer any advice, but I just want to say that I really am so sorry you're in such a hard situation. I'm sure whatever you choose will be the best for him and just reading this has made me cry because I can see how much you love him.

Try and stay strong, not just for Ben, but for yourself too. My thoughts are with you both.
 
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I can't offer any advice, but I just want to say that I really am so sorry you're in such a hard situation. I'm sure whatever you choose will be the best for him and just reading this has made me cry because I can see how much you love him.

Try and stay strong, not just for Ben, but for yourself too. My thoughts are with you with you both.

Thank you so much for your kind words, they mean a lot.

Every possible minute of the day I spend with him, I can. I'm just hoping and praying for some kind of miracle!

X
 
I have just ordered some milk thistle, thank you Jane.

He has been on a long 28 day of panacur which he is just coming to the end of..could that possibly contribute to the high liver levels?

No the vet didn't mention testing the blood for an EC diagnosis, would this be worth doing?

Just wish I could stop him being in pain, love my little man to bits, and been through so much with him in the 4 years I have had him.

I did mention to the vets about risking the GA, but she did point out that if he was to go peacefully after the procedure I wouldn't have been there with him, yet if he was pts I would be with him the whole time.

This is the hardest decision I have ever had to make :'(

How did his symptoms present when the Vet diagnosed EC then ? I am wondering if he actually has middle ear disease given that he has a history of 'Snuffles' and he also has a facial palsy. The latter being more common in middle ear disease than in EC. Does his face look anything like this, sort of 'wonky'


001-11.jpg


If he has a widespread systemic infection this could potentially effect his Liver too. But more diagnostic would be the only way to obtain more detailed information- eg an ultrasound of the Liver.

Could you ask the Vet about the possibility of this all be being bacterial infection related rather than EC ? Obviously this does not address the Dental problem. But it might mean that giving abx longer to take effect whilst also giving appropriate analgesia and intensive supportive nursing care (24/7 for several days) prior to a repeat blood test to see if his Liver function has improved and if it has then a Dental could possibly be attempted.

If however you feel that your Rabbit is too frail and poorly to fight on and his 'spark' has gone then PTS may be what is the 'right' thing to do. Only you and the Vet treating your Rabbit are in a position to make that judgement call. It is never any easy thing to do.
 
Jacks jane- I emailed galens garden yesterday as I noticed they have a liver support tincture for sale.

The woman emailed me back with the ingredients and how to use it, it contains artichoke, Burdock root, lapacho and milk thistle.

They also sell milk thistle leaf which can be fed freely.

Would you suggest using this?

It has to be splashed with boiled water to get rid of the alcohol and then left to cool before giving it.
 
How did his symptoms present when the Vet diagnosed EC then ? I am wondering if he actually has middle ear disease given that he has a history of 'Snuffles' and he also has a facial palsy. The latter being more common in middle ear disease than in EC. Does his face look anything like this, sort of 'wonky'


001-11.jpg


If he has a widespread systemic infection this could potentially effect his Liver too. But more diagnostic would be the only way to obtain more detailed information- eg an ultrasound of the Liver.

Could you ask the Vet about the possibility of this all be being bacterial infection related rather than EC ? Obviously this does not address the Dental problem. But it might mean that giving abx longer to take effect whilst also giving appropriate analgesia and intensive supportive nursing care (24/7 for several days) prior to a repeat blood test to see if his Liver function has improved and if it has then a Dental could possibly be attempted.

If however you feel that your Rabbit is too frail and poorly to fight on and his 'spark' has gone then PTS may be what is the 'right' thing to do. Only you and the Vet treating your Rabbit are in a position to make that judgement call. It is never any easy thing to do.


He is still perky at the moment.

Before they diagnosed EC the vet did a full x ray to determine any middle ear infection, and he was put on a long course of abx. However they said nothing showed up on the xray to show an ear infection.

I did say to my Vet I wanted another blood test repeated in 2 weeks to check if the results have lowered at all, as his abx has been changed from baytril to septrin.

I have a picture of him, he does look slightly wonky yes! The first symptom I noticed was his mouth going wonky and then his eat becoming non functional and then that side of his face following. I will try and attach it now.
 
I'm back to the vets with him tomorrow so I will definitely mention all this to her, I did ask last time about having an ultrasound and she said it wouldn't give much more information apart from the texture..I'm not too sure about what she means by this!
 
I have just ordered some milk thistle, thank you Jane.

He has been on a long 28 day of panacur which he is just coming to the end of..could that possibly contribute to the high liver levels?

No the vet didn't mention testing the blood for an EC diagnosis, would this be worth doing?

Just wish I could stop him being in pain, love my little man to bits, and been through so much with him in the 4 years I have had him.

I did mention to the vets about risking the GA, but she did point out that if he was to go peacefully after the procedure I wouldn't have been there with him, yet if he was pts I would be with him the whole time.

This is the hardest decision I have ever had to make :'(

I have used herbs and homeopathy for a very long time (well, all my life!) and I would just say that when starting the milk thistle, go SLOWLY! It's detox effects can be very powerful and you don't want him feeling sick and ill in the short term. If you build up the dose slowly it's much safer that way.

Will respond to your PM ........ xxx
 
Jacks jane- I emailed galens garden yesterday as I noticed they have a liver support tincture for sale.

The woman emailed me back with the ingredients and how to use it, it contains artichoke, Burdock root, lapacho and milk thistle.

They also sell milk thistle leaf which can be fed freely.

Would you suggest using this?

It has to be splashed with boiled water to get rid of the alcohol and then left to cool before giving it.

I have only ever used the Milk Thistle Liquid on the recommendation of my Vet. I personally would not administer any herbal/complimentary treatments without first discussing it all with the Vet treating my Rabbit. Some complimentary treatments can interfere with the effects of conventional medication.

With regards to how to post a photo, this link explains how to do it

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?136183-Tutorial-How-to-Post-Photos
 
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