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Doing much better - head tilt, ongoing weightloss, history of recurrent stasis

RabbitBears

Warren Scout
Hello everyone

Apologies for the essay, and for the fact that I have been lurking here (although I have found some excellent information as a result!) without introducing myself for a while.

A little about my two rabbits, they're two, neutered boys, lionlops(ish) and I've had them for about a year and a half. They came from rescue and they're my first bunnies. They're cheeky balls of fluff and I love them to bits, Lambchop is a real attention lover and will play any person who he meets, they all love him, and I do too, he's a bit like a little dog, always needing love and affirmation. Smudge is a bit more discerning, more of a rabbit's rabbit, but when you give him space whilst making the effort with him he responds with deep love and affection. They live in my room and I have a real bond with both of them.

About a year ago they started having alternating stasis episodes. One was sick and then the other in turn, and I had to learn about nursing sick rabbits fast. I had family members suggesting putting them to sleep but I did my best to research what might be wrong, and got them through it, with some changes in their diet, after about six months they seemed to stabilise. The vet I was seeing I have since discovered was not the best, but the two better vets at the practice helped with this and prescribed the right medications.

Unfortunately shortly after they stopped having frequent stasis episodes they started periodically losing weight, in much the same pattern, first one then the other, then together... Excess cecals and other digestion issue stuff never disappeared either. They weren't overweight to begin with, but when I got them stable again at a few 100g less than originally, I accepted what the vet said when he suggested my hunch that something was still up was me being an overly worried owner. Eventually I took them both for another check up last week as Lambchop had started to get wet patches around his mouth and a hunch also told me I should get both of their weights checked, they had both lost more, Lambchop most of all. He now weighs around 1.15kg, compared to around 1.75kg when I got him. :cry: Smudge is about 1.3kg from around 1.8kg to start with.

At that point I went to another vet, and found out I had one who is meant to be an exotic specialist very near me. I wish I had gone for a second opinion sooner. :( be that as may, he thinks it highly likely that Lambchop has dental stuff going on that can't be seen consciously. I can see with his symptoms that makes sense, and whilst I'm nervous about him having his first dental on Wednesday, as I'm not sure how well a rabbit he is right now, I understand it needs doing and should help him.

I'm not convinced it's the whole story however as why would Smudge be having some of the same issues if that were the case? The vet is going to try to get some blood whilst Lambchop is under to run tests on, but said he would need to get it from his jugular vein, has anyone else had this? I thought blood was generally taken from their ears so I'm going to ask about that if I can on Wed. I'm just so worried about both of them. I feel like I want to push for cecal and wee samples to be looked at at the same time as this has gone on for so long now, but the vet seems keen to do one thing at a time.

I guess what I'm asking is, I realise this is a bit of long winded complex case, but does the care they're now receiving (at the new vets) sound ok? He definitely put me at my ease in many ways, said Smudge was welcome to come in with Lambchop and suggested I bring them a pack lunch. He seemed to know his stuff. I'm just concerned about the jugular thing and that if we leave it longer before doing to tests it might be too late (if it isn't already).

If anyone has managed to read through this and has any thoughts, suggestions, or things they'd ask, I'd really appreciate it.

I just want my little furry guys well and binkying again.
 
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Some photos of them last year on their birthday, happier times. Apologies for the size!
 
Hi there!

I'm a student veterinary nurse and have some experience with bunny dentals! Obviously, I can't give medical advice as I'm not a vet but I can provide some info.
Dental problems are common in domestic rabbits, so it may be the case that they both have this. Their teeth grow constantly so need to be ground down, usually by eating grass, pellets or chewing. Do they have lots of things to chew?
If they are an exotic specialist, I would stick with seeing them! Urine samples won't tell you much in this regard, its usually used to diagnose bladder/kidney problems. Faecal samples generally identify viruses/bacteria etc. Also, lab samples are expensive to run. I think a dental is the best option you've got here. The vet will burr his teeth if neccesary, which will help if his teeth are the problem.
And yes, jugular blood samples are the most common in veterinary practice. The ear veins are absolutely tiny! It's quite difficult to get a blood sample from them.

Hope it all goes well!

Victoria
 
Thanks Victoria, I really appreciate your input and the blood test stuff is really helpful to hear.

Why I'm wondering about other tests is because both rabbits have lost weight but only one seems to have dental problems (the other shows no pain on being touched around his mouth, isn't drooling, etc. they're both eating like troopers). The vet is satisfied that only Lambchop needs a dental. So I'm wondering why Smudge has lost weight too and whether there are two separate things going on here.

I know Lambchop needs one, I just don't want to miss something additional.

At the end of the day, I need to discuss this with my vet and not here. I'm just worried so was checking to see if anyone had any input. At least I found out the blood test thing is normal!
 
Sorry you have some problems with your 2 bunnies. They look like brothers so if the problem is teeth then it's possible it will affect both of them. Do they get lots of hay to eat as this is what keeps their teeth in good order and also it's good for their digestion. Your new Vet sounds good and hopefully there will be an improvement when he has had the dental. Please let us know how he got on.
 
They are indeed brothers! Smudge's teeth have always been declared perfect but I guess it is possible that there is something no one can see.

Yes the vast majority of their diet is hay. They've both always eaten it enthusiastically. Otherwise they get a couple of fibafirst sticks twice a day and a bit of forage (dandelions, plantain, willow, echinacea...)

Lately I've been giving them some critical care as well just to try and keep their weight up...

Thanks - I'll keep you updated.
 
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They look like they might be related so it's possible they could have teeth issues that are genetic. Whilst he's under an xray would be a good idea to give you a good picture of what's happening with the teeth and also the teeth roots, which can grow down.

What diet are they on at the moment?
 
Should add you can see Lambchop struggling a bit with the hay now although he still gets there, but that's a recent thing, as in the last few days. Smudge appears to eat everything fine.

The fact that they could both have genetic tooth troubles (esp considering their breed I guess) is something that had crossed my mind but somehow not quite clicked, so thanks both for that.
 
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Have you ever panacured them? I'm wondering if testing for EC may be an idea. I only ask as it can cause weightloss and I'm sure I've read somewhere that there can sometimes be a link with that and re-occurring stasis.

I do agree though that its entirely possible that as brothers a genetic dental issue could affect both.
 
Thanks Amy.

Yes - this has been on my mind and whilst focusing on teeth my vet mentioned it as a possibility too. I think his thoughts are that he'll get a general blood profile done if he can, and then if that shows anything that might suggest EC he'll ask for a test to be run for that at that point.

I think what was worrying me last night is leaving it longer as it has already been going on so long (due to previous less experienced vet, and me not finding someone better. :? ) I think I'll ask the vet tomorrow how long it is likely to take to get the first test's results, and take it from there.

I am low on funds and they're not insured, but their welfare comes first at the end of the day. If it's going to take a while to get results, I think I'd rather do both tests at once.

I have panacured them - but only for 9 days when I know you need at least 28 days for EC. Interestingly, their weight did stablise for a while at around that time :?

Thanks a lot to everyone, whilst I'm obviously no closer to an answer, I do feel a bit clearer about what I'm going to raise tomorrow.
 
How does your vet feel about treating them for 28 days anyway if funds for additional bloods are low. AFAIK panacur doesn't have any harmful affect if administered unnecessarily.
 
An update for anyone interested:

Lambchop got through his dental fine yesterday, they filed down a few small spurs - he has recovered well, dozy last night and had some critical care, but ate his fibafirst fine this morning, was seeming off hay but is now happily munching away as I type.

Smudge was a bit shaken by the whole affair, he gets nervous being taken into the vets but also if he's left without Lambchop so there doesn't seem to be a way of winning with him when Lambchop needs something done. I opted for them to go in together as Lambchop would be happier and I think that was the right choice. Coxed him to eat last night and he's eaten okish this morning, and giving him some extra cuddles and also some space, and he seems to be picking up slowly.

I asked about Smudge's teeth, and whether they could have a genetic issue there. The vet is satisfied the Smudge doesn't have anything wrong with his teeth for the moment as he's not showing any signs of that, just weight loss. He's happy being touched around his mouth, eating everything fine (or at least he was till he got back from the vet lol.) no wetness etc.

I didn't manage to ask about an xray because I only got to speak to the vet once Lambchop was in recovery.

They managed to get some blood from Lambchop and fingers crossed should get the results from that later today.

As the tests results seem to come back from the lab pretty quickly, I happy to run the tests and then discuss panacur, etc.

If the tests all come back negative I'll raise the possibility of Smudge having teeth stuff that's hidden, tooth roots, etc. again at that point, alongside looking again at diet.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
 
how are the boys doing? i would definitely get their teeth done under anaesthetic, you cant visualise teeth at the back of the mouth without it. it's quite possible that there is more than one thing going on as you suspect and their relationship is a factor but not because of genetics, much more likely to be because of shared housing and their shared upbringing (nothing you're doing wrong, i'm talking about the breeder or original place). coccidia is my hunch for this and it's very infectious so both are likely to have it. i'd get a full C & S done at a lab via a vet looking specifically for coccidia. if found it needs treating and sounds suspiciously to me like it might be that. the treatment gold standard is ponazuril or toltrazuril (baycox) to actually kill off the parasite. fembendazole (PANACUR) will **not** kill coccidia and nor will antibiotics. but these wormers are of far shorter duration, small doses, more effective as it actually KILLS eimeria (the parasite causing coccidia) instead of using antibiotics which do NOT. and this parasite is now highly resistant to abx which should not be overused in today's climate of abx resistance. WITH RABBITS DO NOT PUT BAYCOX (TOLTRAZURIL) IN THEIR WATER. SYRINGE IT TO THEM - IT'S MORE ACCURATE AND WE NEVER WANT TO PUT THEM OFF DRINKING! thanks.

dose for toltrazuril is from medirabbit

>>· Toltrazuril (Baycox®), 2.5 to 5 mg/kg (higher doses cause anorexia), twice, repeat after 5 days<< see http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Protozoal_diseases/Cocc_en.htm
 
Thanks. Interestingly, just got off the phone to the vet and coccidiosis is now being mentioned as a possibility.

Bloods came back mostly normal which is fantastic. Liver and kidneys are fine which was a big concern in my mind, but Lambchop is slightly anaemic. The vet said that *could* be caused by a chronic gut parasite like Coccidia causing little bleeds. So next step is a cecal sample.

For now I'm also to continue supplimenting with critical care and take them back to be weighed in a week.

White cell count is apparently fine.

If anyone has any experience of anaemia in fairly young adult rabbits I'd be curious to hear about it and what caused it.
 
The vet said that *could* be caused by a chronic gut parasite like Coccidia causing little bleeds. So next step is a cecal sample.



You need to collect a 3 day FECAL sample to test for coccidia. Oocysts are not shed in Cecals :)

Non regenerative anaemia can be a feature of Dental disease, even if there is not active infection present (dental abscesses etc)
 
Ok thanks Jane.

Bit concerned that the vet didn't know which type of sample to take if I've got things right... :?

Will call him tomorrow and confirm exactly what we're testing for and what he needs, and suggest doing a three day fecal sample as well.

Lambchop has been drooling a bit again which also has me worried. Will obviously mention that too and see whether I need to get him seen again sooner. Still eating keenly which is something.

Also yes - from googling after I posted it seems that non regenerative anaemia can basically mean all sorts of different on going chronic problems?... So not much light shed yet then, I knew we were dealing with at least one of those already! It's interesting teeth are included, so quite possibly that's why then.
 
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