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Kavanne
27-08-2014, 08:41 PM
Showed one of the young vets filing a bun's teeth whilst awake... Is this a normal thing to do?? I thought buns went under for dentals as a matter of course but I don't Have much experience

Jack's-Jane
27-08-2014, 09:09 PM
As only about 70-80% of the oral cavity of a Rabbit can be viewed when the Rabbit is awake any 'filing' done without a GA is only going to be 'fire fighting' and not addressing the full problem. It can potentially exacerbate the rate of progression of Dental problems too. IMO it is also far too stressful for the Rabbit, causing a release of cortisol which can cause a multitude of systemic problems.

Kermit
27-08-2014, 09:30 PM
Was it back teeth?

My Herbie gets his front peg teeth burred (his incisors have been taken out twice and the peg teeth still came back) when he is awake.

AnnieElms
27-08-2014, 09:37 PM
I used to be firmly in the 'anti' camp when it came to conscious dentals, but since moving vets to a very bunny savvy vet, I can honestly say I think it can be done in the right circumstances. My Toby needs dentals fairly regularly (sometimes once a month), and he has them done consciously so that he doesn't have to go through an anaesthetic so frequently. The surgery where we go is very quiet and calm, and the vet does the rasping gently and slowly.

There may come a time when Toby needs a GA as he could get spurs further back, where a conscious dental just won't cut it, but until that time it is so much less of an ordeal for him than spending the whole day at the vet's, I am happy to continue this way.

Kavanne
27-08-2014, 09:53 PM
Jane, the rabbit did look extremely stressed :( they didn't do a whole segment on that but it was distressing to see

Jack's-Jane
27-08-2014, 09:56 PM
Jane, the rabbit did look extremely stressed :( they didn't do a whole segment on that but it was distressing to see

:cry:

YoungVet
28-08-2014, 11:35 AM
Hi All,

Just seen this so thought I'd join and explain...

This rabbit consult/dental burring was filmed in full, but in the end just a few seconds of it was used (the filming focus of this placement was the very cute cockapoo...) The rabbit was having problems with the front teeth frequently becoming overgrown. His back teeth had been checked at previous dentals, which had been done under GA. It was decided with the vet and the owner, that they would sometimes carry out the burring conscious and sometimes do a GA/check the rest of the teeth/treat if needed. With the frequency that the front teeth were needing doing, it was better than frequent GAs.

The whole thing only took a few minutes - the rabbit wasn't behaving stressed, he was held firmly by the vet to prevent him jumping/ending up hurt, but he was absolutely fine. Much preferable to the stress and risks of a GA. The owners were, and have been in the past, given husbandry advice on diet/things to gnaw on etc to try and help with the teeth.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer!

Jack's-Jane
28-08-2014, 12:07 PM
Hi All,

Just seen this so thought I'd join and explain...

This rabbit consult/dental burring was filmed in full, but in the end just a few seconds of it was used (the filming focus of this placement was the very cute cockapoo...) The rabbit was having problems with the front teeth frequently becoming overgrown. His back teeth had been checked at previous dentals, which had been done under GA. It was decided with the vet and the owner, that they would sometimes carry out the burring conscious and sometimes do a GA/check the rest of the teeth/treat if needed. With the frequency that the front teeth were needing doing, it was better than frequent GAs.

The whole thing only took a few minutes - the rabbit wasn't behaving stressed, he was held firmly by the vet to prevent him jumping/ending up hurt, but he was absolutely fine. Much preferable to the stress and risks of a GA. The owners were, and have been in the past, given husbandry advice on diet/things to gnaw on etc to try and help with the teeth.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer!

Was incisor extraction not an option ?

Kavanne
28-08-2014, 12:24 PM
Hi All,

Just seen this so thought I'd join and explain...

This rabbit consult/dental burring was filmed in full, but in the end just a few seconds of it was used (the filming focus of this placement was the very cute cockapoo...) The rabbit was having problems with the front teeth frequently becoming overgrown. His back teeth had been checked at previous dentals, which had been done under GA. It was decided with the vet and the owner, that they would sometimes carry out the burring conscious and sometimes do a GA/check the rest of the teeth/treat if needed. With the frequency that the front teeth were needing doing, it was better than frequent GAs.

The whole thing only took a few minutes - the rabbit wasn't behaving stressed, he was held firmly by the vet to prevent him jumping/ending up hurt, but he was absolutely fine. Much preferable to the stress and risks of a GA. The owners were, and have been in the past, given husbandry advice on diet/things to gnaw on etc to try and help with the teeth.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer!

You've put my mind at rest there :) it was difficult to tell what was going on in the few seconds they chose to use.

YoungVet
28-08-2014, 12:41 PM
Was incisor extraction not an option ?

I believe it had been discussed previously - but decided that for the time being they would continue with burring, if it got to the point were it was being needed even more frequently, or the rabbit wasn't tolerating the quick few mins procedure conscious, then that might be the best option.

AnnieElms
28-08-2014, 12:58 PM
Hi All,

Just seen this so thought I'd join and explain...

This rabbit consult/dental burring was filmed in full, but in the end just a few seconds of it was used (the filming focus of this placement was the very cute cockapoo...) The rabbit was having problems with the front teeth frequently becoming overgrown. His back teeth had been checked at previous dentals, which had been done under GA. It was decided with the vet and the owner, that they would sometimes carry out the burring conscious and sometimes do a GA/check the rest of the teeth/treat if needed. With the frequency that the front teeth were needing doing, it was better than frequent GAs.

The whole thing only took a few minutes - the rabbit wasn't behaving stressed, he was held firmly by the vet to prevent him jumping/ending up hurt, but he was absolutely fine. Much preferable to the stress and risks of a GA. The owners were, and have been in the past, given husbandry advice on diet/things to gnaw on etc to try and help with the teeth.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer!

Thank you for joining the forum and explaining the background! Please stay around, it's so nice that you have such an interest in rabbits. There aren't enough good bunny vets around! You will certainly hear about a wide range of bunny issues if you read the forum regularly. Just as an owner, I have found it fascinating to read about many different bunny health issues and how some of the bunny specialist vets treat them.

serenity087
28-08-2014, 01:59 PM
Tarja used to have to have her teeth filed whilst awake once a fortnight.

We discussed extractions, which would have been her 5th and 6th GA, the risks involved (broken jaws, stasis, not waking up, teeth growing back even worse) and we accessed her reactions to the filing.

Yes, it's stressful, same as humans find dentists bad but Tarj didn't mind. She actually really enjoyed the vets!!

Janey
28-08-2014, 02:53 PM
My old dental bun had conscious dentals for her back teeth and they certainly worked. She would go from a bunny being miserable and not eating anything to a happy bunny munching away within half an hour of being back from the vets. With previous dentals under anaesthetic she had taken days to get back to her normal self.

I guess everybun is different, my Poppy was very chilled and was so used to the vets that going didn't phase her, it also kept the cost of the dentals down which was very helpful as she cost me a small fortune in vet treatment.

Jack's-Jane
03-09-2014, 08:22 PM
Did I hear that correctly, 800 to have a drain put in a bite wound on a JRT :shock:

Tamsin
04-09-2014, 02:26 AM
I didn't catch it - was it the front or the back teeth? Front are usually done awake and back asleep.

Jack's-Jane
04-09-2014, 07:32 AM
I didn't catch it - was it the front or the back teeth? Front are usually done awake and back asleep.

I missed that bit too.

I am staying well out of any 'conscious Dental' debate though !! :shock: :lol:

tulsi
04-09-2014, 01:54 PM
I missed that bit too.

I am staying well out of any 'conscious Dental' debate though !! :shock: :lol:

Oh dear. Mottle had a couple of his back teeth conciously filed ... Poor love. I dont know what he made of it as he is pretty unimpressed with the vet anyway. Any information re; concious dentals jane? (ie links).

biscandmatt1
04-09-2014, 01:57 PM
our vets use a very very light sedation for dentals. do some use a full anaesthetic? surely there's no need?

Jack's-Jane
04-09-2014, 08:34 PM
Judy should get her own TV programme, she's a natural communicator !!

Captain Helen
04-09-2014, 08:41 PM
Poor doggie on tonight's show :cry::cry::cry:


Judy should get her own TV programme, she's a natural communicator !!

She really should!

Jack's-Jane
04-09-2014, 08:44 PM
Oh dear. Mottle had a couple of his back teeth conciously filed ... Poor love. I dont know what he made of it as he is pretty unimpressed with the vet anyway. Any information re; concious dentals jane? (ie links).

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?167986-Conscious-dentals&highlight=conscious+dental

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?287381-Conscious-Dentals-Some-Thoughts&highlight=conscious+dental

Quote from Sharon Redrobe (http://www.redrobe.com/sharon/ )

Dental examination

A cursory examination may be made in the conscious rabbit using an otoscope or small vaginal speculum used intra-orally but such an examination in the conscious rabbit is extremely limited and many lesions will not be detected. A full oral examination to inspect the teeth and soft tissue structures in the mouth requires deep sedation or a full general anaesthetic to abolish chewing movement and allow adequate visualisation of the oral cavity. Proprietary oral gags and cheek retractors are available. Alternatively, lengths of bandage hooked over the incisors may be used to open the mouth and allow good visualisation with minimal obstruction. Retraction of the tongue to each side in turn is required to check for spurs that may imbed into the base of the tongue. The entire length of the tongue should be examined for signs of laceration or infection. Similarly, the cheeks should be retracted from the dental arcades and examined for evidence of laceration or infection. The periodontal ligament of each tooth is checked using a blunt probe. The probe is introduced into the gingival sulcus and explored around each tooth to check for periodontal pockets, food impaction, plaque, pus, and areas of inflammation. Bleeding after probing is a sign of inflammation. Each tooth is checked for excessive mobility. The results of the dental examination should be recorded on a dental chart for accurate recording and comparison with subsequent examinations. Radiography will aid in the location of spurs and in the assessment of tooth and jaw pathology.

Santa
05-09-2014, 09:09 AM
Personally I am an advocate of full GA for molar dentals - Santa used to have her teeth inspected regularly and there was one occasion where she went in for a dental and my vet found a giant spur growing sideways into her cheek. It hadn't been visible at all during conscious inspection, and we suspect the only reason she wasn't showing signs of pain was because she was already on metacam for her snuffles.

As an aside, did anyone else find it alarming that one of the vets was in his last rotation before he did a rabbit op. It terrifies me that new small animal vets can be doing ops unsupervised on our rabbits from day one, potentially having never done one before. I think it's time for another letter (or several hundred) to the RCVS about whether their education framework needs updating so that as well as getting a thorough grounding in all major farm animals, all vets are required to get a major grounding in Britain's third most popular pet.

Jack's-Jane
05-09-2014, 10:40 AM
Personally I am an advocate of full GA for molar dentals - Santa used to have her teeth inspected regularly and there was one occasion where she went in for a dental and my vet found a giant spur growing sideways into her cheek. It hadn't been visible at all during conscious inspection, and we suspect the only reason she wasn't showing signs of pain was because she was already on metacam for her snuffles.

As an aside, did anyone else find it alarming that one of the vets was in his last rotation before he did a rabbit op. It terrifies me that new small animal vets can be doing ops unsupervised on our rabbits from day one, potentially having never done one before. I think it's time for another letter (or several hundred) to the RCVS about whether their education framework needs updating so that as well as getting a thorough grounding in all major farm animals, all vets are required to get a major grounding in Britain's third most popular pet.

Yep, totally agree

In many cases people are now expected to pay enormous fees for basic procedures on their Pet Rabbits. I think it is totally unacceptable that a complete novice is left to carry out a surgical procedure on a Rabbit (or any other Pet). Of course all new Vets have to start somewhere and only time will gain them the experience they need. But more 'experience' seems to be required prior to graduation, especially as far as Rabbits are concerned.

Santa
05-09-2014, 11:33 AM
Can you imagine if new vets were sent out to work on the third most common farm animal without having ever done it in training? It just wouldn't happen, so why is it acceptable for the third most common companion animal? I'd have hoped that at the very least, anaesthesia, a dental, castration and spay should be considered day 1 skills and hence required in training??

Jack's-Jane
05-09-2014, 12:41 PM
Can you imagine if new vets were sent out to work on the third most common farm animal without having ever done it in training? It just wouldn't happen, so why is it acceptable for the third most common companion animal? I'd have hoped that at the very least, anaesthesia, a dental, castration and spay should be considered day 1 skills and hence required in training??

I know, I punched out a lengthy post (rant :oops:) about all this the other day. But I ended up not submitting it as I thought I'd just get an ear bashing for moaning (again :oops:)

It really does irk me that Rabbit Medicine is still not seen as being so important as that relating to Cats and Dogs. If the individual Vet does not have a specific interest in Rabbits then that Vet's clients are only going to receive the most basic care (if they are lucky). To think that some Vets still dont factor in analgesia to the treatment plan for a Rabbit is completely ridiculous. A couple of days ago I heard of a situation where an owner was told that all pain relief had the potential to cause kidney failure in Rabbits so it was better not to risk it !! :shock: The person still paid over 70 for a consult and the inevitable course of Baytril :roll: :evil:

Sorry, I'll shut up now :oops:

catxx
05-09-2014, 02:12 PM
Every vet student at RVC in Potters Bar (and any other vet college) has an open invitation to come and spend the day at Rabbit Residence, and they do. RRR is going to that RVC in October to help show students the correct way to handle rabbits (picking up, syringe feeding etc), RR did this last year too and I went along to help Caroline.

A couple of the vets featured on the Young Vets show follow the Rabbit Residence twitter account :)

Bionic Bunny
05-09-2014, 03:10 PM
Having completed Vet School I can honestly say it is one of the hardest things I have ever done. We had excellent lectures on rabbits from some of the most respected rabbit specialists in the country but the issue was that we did not have any practical experience offered specifically for rabbits as part of the course. I think there should be more practical training. Re-classifying rabbits as companion animal instead of exotic would be advantageous.