Something possibly up with Fudge? UD kidneys

Hmm. I'm not sure if I'm being totally paranoid or not. Biscandmatt's threads about Bisc have got me thinking....

Since about April, Fudge has been weeing and pooing outside her litter tray. This started (a) in spring, and (b) at the same time that we completely revamped their setup, so I'd put it down to stress/territorial issues and hadn't thought any more of it.

This morning I've seen her wee twice and I would say it's not exactly normal. She seems to be almost squatting, as opposed to lifting her tail up as she used to do. She doesn't appear to struggle or be in any discomfort though. He wee seems normal to me - pale yellow, normal smell. I've not noticed any difference in her drinking habits. The weeing seems to be getting worse - first it was just in the corners, but now she'll do it in the middle of the floor, and she seems to just poo pretty much anywhere.

However, there are a couple of other things that have changed which again I thought nothing of but now I'm wondering if something is going on. Around the same time all this started, she became much more 'licky'. We just thought she was becoming more affectionate in her middle age (she's 5 and a half now). She'll spend ages now licking any exposed skin.

And I've noticed recently her tail doesn't always sit straight. Not always - but often, it's tilting very slightly to one side.

I don't routinely weigh T&F, but I weighed Fudge this morning and she's about 150g down on last December when she had her vacs.

One other thing - Truffle seems a lot more hormonal around her lately - she's buzzing and mounting Fudge loads, which is making me wonder if something is wrong and she can sense it.

I'm inclined to take her to the vets, but aside from the weight loss (which isn't noticeable - she's still a healthy weight), I don't think any of those things on their own are particularly worrying. Her behaviour otherwise is absolutely normal - she's active, mobile, inquisitive etc. She doesn't have a history of health problems - last summer she had a dental to remove a small spur but that's it. Truffle had EC a couple of years ago, if that could be relevant.

I just have a feeling now that something might now be quite right. Any thoughts? Am I worrying about nothing?

It could be that she has some osteoarthritis in her hips/spine. This would make adopting the normal position to urinate more difficult. It can also lead to the loss of litter tray training. Ongoing low grade pain can cause weight loss and some Rabbits become 'licky' due to pain. Believe it or not some arthritic Rabbits can appear to be surprisingly mobile, it can just be subtle things that change in the early stages.

EC is another possibility

So I would definitely get the Vet to take a look at her.

I think it's definitely worth getting her checked out. I would be tempted to have bloods done just to rule out kidney problems/EC etc etc.

Sending her tons of vibes. x

Thanks guys.
Jane how would osteoarthrits be diagnosed?

I will definitely take her in this week and get them to have a look at her.

esupi said:

Thanks guys.
Jane how would osteoarthrits be diagnosed?

I will definitely take her in this week and get them to have a look at her.

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Sometimes a Vet can detect evidence of it on examination, but an Xray is needed to give a definitive diagnosis

Just been to the vets.

She has last weight, but only around 80g - I misremembered what she weighed before.
She helpfully did a massive wee on the table, so the vet tested that. He said it was showing high protein and a little blood so he strongly suspects cystitis, possibly in conjunction with something else - incontinence, EC or arthritis all possibilities.
He felt for bladder stones too and couldn't feel anything, and checked her teeth also.

So - we're starting with the thing we have evidence of - she has a 5 day course of Baytril (which I've just managed to successfully get the first dose into her ) and then we'll reassess after that.

She did not behave in the vets - she is absolutely determined to find out what is over my shoulder! :?

Fingers crossed she feels better soon. Hopefully there is nothing else going on. x

I am glad that something. Was identified and you can treat that. I hope nothing else is going on as well.

I am sure that whatever was over your shoulder was soooo much more interesting then the vet

oh dear... a parrot bunny. :lol: matt used to sometimes be determined to sit on my shoulder and cling to my head :shock::lol:

sending fudge vibes and i hope nothing else is going on x

biscandmatt1 said:

oh dear... a parrot bunny. :lol: matt used to sometimes be determined to sit on my shoulder and cling to my head :shock::lol:

sending fudge vibes and i hope nothing else is going on x

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:lol: If only she just wanted to sit there! She sees it as her best means of escape. It was the first trick she pulled on us back when we knew nothing about rabbits - during her post-spay checkup she leapt up and over my shoulder and onto the floor and dislocated one of her back toes!

Sending vibes for little Fudge x hope she's soon better.

Been back to the vets with Fudge this morning.
The Baytril definitely helped. Her wee went back to a normal colour (it had been a bit brown previously - think I forgot to mention that), and she stopped weeing everywhere. The pooing indiscriminately was also gradually reducing. Some of the other things didn't change though. The licking has got worse - she's started licking plates left on the floor (so far we've had ice cream, beef soup and chilli sauce remnants) - she never used to do this before. And she's started to try to chew the plate itself!

And I really think the wonky tail thing is significant. She's not only holding it slightly to one side, but also a little bit raised compared to normal.

I'm convinced something is bothering her and that she is uncomfortable.

And then in the last few days all the wee/poo symptoms returned.

She has lost a bit more weight too - down to 1.6 kg now from 1.7 last time, where in the past she's typcially between 1.8 and 1.95 kg.

So - we now have a longer course of Baytril, plus metacam to see if she is in pain and that is causing the behavrioural changes. We're going back in two weeks to reassess. I just have a gut feeling something other than that UTI isn't right with her, but we need to try to eliminate that first so that we can see what symptoms remain.

I'd be tempted to stick her on a 28 day course of panacur if it was me.

Vegan_Bunny said:

I'd be tempted to stick her on a 28 day course of panacur if it was me.

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What makes you say that?

Poor fudge
Hope she's feeling better soon x

Poor little Fudge. Such a shame they can't tell us what is wrong.

Sending loads of vibes x

if nothing shows on tests, then she may have what bisc seems to have, which is inflammation of the bladder. apparently it is quite common, more so than actual infections. sometimes it seems to have no cause (or not one that can be found anyway)

bisc had his metacam increased for 8days recently to bring any inflammation down. he also had cerenia alongside this aswell to work on the inflammation but in a different way to metacam. his symptoms completely went away.

for some reason though, it always comes back again. his tail goes more slanted and he starts weeing on the floor. it's really strange, but if it comes back again then i'm speaking with the vet to see what we can do. the vet we saw last time (not our usual) said that if it comes back then to take him back for all the xrays and bloods again just to rule everything out again, but if nothing is found again, then he for some strange reason, just gets inflammation in that area. but at least when we know that, we can decide whether short courses of metacam and cerenia would work for him when it reoccurs.

i think it's like the interstitial cystitis that alot of guinea pigs get.

but i know what you mean about the tail. bisc's just doesn't look right. but the xrays ruled out any damage in that area. (the vet was most concerned about his spine but everything looked normal) :?

just thought i'd mention anyway as the symptoms sound very similar. :wave:

biscandmatt1 said:

if nothing shows on tests, then she may have what bisc seems to have, which is inflammation of the bladder. apparently it is quite common, more so than actual infections. sometimes it seems to have no cause (or not one that can be found anyway)

bisc had his metacam increased for 8days recently to bring any inflammation down. he also had cerenia alongside this aswell to work on the inflammation but in a different way to metacam. his symptoms completely went away.

for some reason though, it always comes back again. his tail goes more slanted and he starts weeing on the floor. it's really strange, but if it comes back again then i'm speaking with the vet to see what we can do. the vet we saw last time (not our usual) said that if it comes back then to take him back for all the xrays and bloods again just to rule everything out again, but if nothing is found again, then he for some strange reason, just gets inflammation in that area. but at least when we know that, we can decide whether short courses of metacam and cerenia would work for him when it reoccurs.

i think it's like the interstitial cystitis that alot of guinea pigs get.

but i know what you mean about the tail. bisc's just doesn't look right. but the xrays ruled out any damage in that area. (the vet was most concerned about his spine but everything looked normal) :?

just thought i'd mention anyway as the symptoms sound very similar. :wave:

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This is really interesting - thanks! I need to go back and read Bisc's thread again - I hadn't realised he had the slanty tail thing too. OH can't see it - I mean he can see that it's wonky, but he doens't know what I mean about her holding it a bit higher and it just not looking right. So hard to explain!

Both times we've been the vet has tested her wee and both times it's been high in protein and has some blood, so there's defnitely some sort of infection. I just feel like that's not all it is.

Weedug is right - would be so much easier if they could just explain how they're feeling.

esupi said:

This is really interesting - thanks! I need to go back and read Bisc's thread again - I hadn't realised he had the slanty tail thing too. OH can't see it - I mean he can see that it's wonky, but he doens't know what I mean about her holding it a bit higher and it just not looking right. So hard to explain!

Both times we've been the vet has tested her wee and both times it's been high in protein and has some blood, so there's defnitely some sort of infection. I just feel like that's not all it is.

Weedug is right - would be so much easier if they could just explain how they're feeling.

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yes, i know what you mean. it's kind of wonky and held slightly higher (like as though they're slightly tensing it). but when he lies down, it seems too low and almost looks like he doesn't have a tail :?

i wish they could tell us aswell. it would make things much easier. x

I hope you find out what's wrong, it seems like the infection isn't totally going.

I always think you know when something is wrong with your bunny. I hope Fudge stays painfree until it is all sorted.

When Doughnut was wet for a year and tiddling everywhere, as soon as she was on the right medicine she went back to her litter tray and never tiddles outside of it again. Bunnies are so intelligent