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Jaw / neck abscess Washing out honey

Mariac1510

Young Bun
Sadly we found a abscess on Bluebells jaw / neck last week. We are not sure why it happened but it's not tooth related. After it being lanced we have completed a week of Baydril and washing it out with salt water 2-3 times a day.
We went back to the vet for a check up and its slightly in the bone but as she is eating / playing and not in pain says that we can still get it under control. I have been in bits over her the last few days then read about Manuka honey. I managed to get 15+ us this okay?
How to I go about flushing the honey out?
 
You leave the honey in the wound after you have cleaned out any other debris and gunge. It aids healing and helps against the bacteria. It doesn't matter if the rabbit swallows some. Factor 15+ should be fine.

I would suggest talking to your vet about more antibiotics. Jaw abscesses can take quite a while to get on top of unless the whole capsule is removed surgically. Lancing it just opens up the capsule to enable it to drain - the infection is still active inside it. Longer term antibiotic cover may be needed - often an injected depocillin over a few weeks / months. Mine have been done anything from daily to twice a week, depending on the vet, the antibiotic and the severity of the abscess.
 
I agree that you should get more abx from the vets. Baytril is not the greatest to fight abscesses and an injectable abx works better. I would also ask for something stronger than salt water to flush the wound with. Dilute Hibiscrub or Iodine work well.

As for the Manuka, yes 15 should be OK, but I generally use 25+. Just flush out the wound, get as much pus out as you can, and then put the honey in and leave it there. It is a difficult task! I use a cotton bud and kind of twist the honey into the hole (if that makes sense!). Then it gets cleaned out the next time you do a flush and just repeat/.

Manuka honey is fantastic.

Good luck x
 
You leave the honey in the wound after you have cleaned out any other debris and gunge. It aids healing and helps against the bacteria. It doesn't matter if the rabbit swallows some. Factor 15+ should be fine.

I would suggest talking to your vet about more antibiotics. Jaw abscesses can take quite a while to get on top of unless the whole capsule is removed surgically. Lancing it just opens up the capsule to enable it to drain - the infection is still active inside it. Longer term antibiotic cover may be needed - often an injected depocillin over a few weeks / months. Mine have been done anything from daily to twice a week, depending on the vet, the antibiotic and the severity of the abscess.

Thanks for you advice.

Bluebell went back to the vets yesterday and we asked for something stronger but he said he wanted to continue on the second week of Baydrill as he thought she was doing okay. We are due back again Monday so i will ask ask about injected depocillin.

I used the hoeny for the first time last night and washed out this morning and refilled. There was a lot of puss this morning!
 
Sorry to hear your bunny has got an abscess. We've had 2 recently. Anyway, the reason I am posting is to ask you if you have seen an ongoing thread in Healthh regarding a member's bunny with an abscess. It is very interesting to follow the progress. Good luck with your rabbit.
 
To have a chance at ever healing an abscess for good, the entire abscess capsule really needs to be surgically removed. Then for up to 6 weeks afterwards it'll need to be flushed out 3-5 times a day just like you're doing, and many vets recommend the manuka honey too. You flush and scrape as much pus out as possible, and then syringe the manuka honey in. The manuka honey helps prevent bacteria growing too much. Unfortunately just lancing it and then cleaning may temporarily sort the problem out, but the abscess will almost certainly come back again and again as the abscess capsule hasn't been removed. I think you should query with your vet whether they can remove it, and if not I'd look at possibly finding another vet who has more experience with rabbits so that they can hopefully remove it. If the teeth aren't involved it may well be a fairly simple procedure - it gets quite tricky when the teeth are involved in the abscess. I made the mistake of not realising that I had a great rabbit vet so close to me, and spent many months with Nena under the care of a vet who was good - but not as good as this vet. We temporarily sorted the problem but it re-occured within 6 months or so. Nena has the abscess and abscess capsule removed, along with the infected tissue, bone and teeth 4 weeks ago.

Whereabouts do you live? If you post a thread in rabbit chat asking for a rabbit savvy vet in your area, you may get some suggestions of great bunny vets. If nothing else, they'd be able to give you a second opinion about whether they agree with this treatment.

Baytril is not great on its own for abscesses, as others have mentioned. It's simply not strong enough for abscesses by itself unless the culture shows that baytril will be effective - abscesses need aggressive, and targetted treatment. Injectable depocillin is a common one, but other antibiotics may be used. It's best if a culture can be taken to establish which antibiotic would be most effective, but this cannot be taken once the rabbit is already on antibiotics.

Is your bunny on pain relief? Metacam is a common painkiller. Although she may not appear to be in pain, rabbits hide it very well. It would be wise to get her on metacam if she's not already.

This is my thread about my bunny Nena, she's currently being treated for a tooth root/jaw abscess. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?415173-Nena-s-jaw-tooth-root-abscess

This is my previous thread - the abscess at this time was only drained, and as you can see it came back within about 6 months or so. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...bscess)-Final-U-D-December-she-s-still-fine-)

They really do need the abscess and abscess capsule to be removed to have a hope of getting rid of it for good. The treatment afterwards is quite intensive, but it seems like you're already doing the flushing many times a day so it'll pretty much just be that plus some medication.

This is a really interesting PDF from the vet I'm using at the moment. Jack's Jane on here actually linked it in another thread and I've bookmarked it. Marie Kubiak is one of the top rabbit vets in the country - she knows what she's on about and it's a fantastic read http://www.manorvets.co.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/files/dental dz(1).pdf
 
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To have a chance at ever healing an abscess for good, the entire abscess capsule really needs to be surgically removed. Then for up to 6 weeks afterwards it'll need to be flushed out 3-5 times a day just like you're doing, and many vets recommend the manuka honey too. You flush and scrape as much pus out as possible, and then syringe the manuka honey in. The manuka honey helps prevent bacteria growing too much. Unfortunately just lancing it and then cleaning may temporarily sort the problem out, but the abscess will almost certainly come back again and again as the abscess capsule hasn't been removed. I think you should query with your vet whether they can remove it, and if not I'd look at possibly finding another vet who has more experience with rabbits so that they can hopefully remove it. If the teeth aren't involved it may well be a fairly simple procedure - it gets quite tricky when the teeth are involved in the abscess. I made the mistake of not realising that I had a great rabbit vet so close to me, and spent many months with Nena under the care of a vet who was good - but not as good as this vet. We temporarily sorted the problem but it re-occured within 6 months or so. Nena has the abscess and abscess capsule removed, along with the infected tissue, bone and teeth 4 weeks ago.

Whereabouts do you live? If you post a thread in rabbit chat asking for a rabbit savvy vet in your area, you may get some suggestions of great bunny vets. If nothing else, they'd be able to give you a second opinion about whether they agree with this treatment.

Baytril is not great on its own for abscesses, as others have mentioned. It's simply not strong enough for abscesses by itself unless the culture shows that baytril will be effective - abscesses need aggressive, and targetted treatment. Injectable depocillin is a common one, but other antibiotics may be used. It's best if a culture can be taken to establish which antibiotic would be most effective, but this cannot be taken once the rabbit is already on antibiotics.

Is your bunny on pain relief? Metacam is a common painkiller. Although she may not appear to be in pain, rabbits hide it very well. It would be wise to get her on metacam if she's not already.

This is my thread about my bunny Nena, she's currently being treated for a tooth root/jaw abscess. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?415173-Nena-s-jaw-tooth-root-abscess

This is my previous thread - the abscess at this time was only drained, and as you can see it came back within about 6 months or so. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...bscess)-Final-U-D-December-she-s-still-fine-)

They really do need the abscess and abscess capsule to be removed to have a hope of getting rid of it for good. The treatment afterwards is quite intensive, but it seems like you're already doing the flushing many times a day so it'll pretty much just be that plus some medication.

This is a really interesting PDF from the vet I'm using at the moment. Jack's Jane on here actually linked it in another thread and I've bookmarked it. Marie Kubiak is one of the top rabbit vets in the country - she knows what she's on about and it's a fantastic read http://www.manorvets.co.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/files/dental dz(1).pdf

I live in Essex (south Essex) I am about to go back to the vets tonight to get something stronger to flush the abscess with. The vet seems to be happy with how things are going at the moment? No she is not on any pain relief. We did speak to him about removing the whole lot but he didn't think it was necessary at the stage?

I am so worried about loosing her, i am happy to try and do anything!
 
To have a chance at ever healing an abscess for good, the entire abscess capsule really needs to be surgically removed. Then for up to 6 weeks afterwards it'll need to be flushed out 3-5 times a day just like you're doing, and many vets recommend the manuka honey too. You flush and scrape as much pus out as possible, and then syringe the manuka honey in. The manuka honey helps prevent bacteria growing too much. Unfortunately just lancing it and then cleaning may temporarily sort the problem out, but the abscess will almost certainly come back again and again as the abscess capsule hasn't been removed. I think you should query with your vet whether they can remove it, and if not I'd look at possibly finding another vet who has more experience with rabbits so that they can hopefully remove it. If the teeth aren't involved it may well be a fairly simple procedure - it gets quite tricky when the teeth are involved in the abscess. I made the mistake of not realising that I had a great rabbit vet so close to me, and spent many months with Nena under the care of a vet who was good - but not as good as this vet. We temporarily sorted the problem but it re-occured within 6 months or so. Nena has the abscess and abscess capsule removed, along with the infected tissue, bone and teeth 4 weeks ago.

Whereabouts do you live? If you post a thread in rabbit chat asking for a rabbit savvy vet in your area, you may get some suggestions of great bunny vets. If nothing else, they'd be able to give you a second opinion about whether they agree with this treatment.

Baytril is not great on its own for abscesses, as others have mentioned. It's simply not strong enough for abscesses by itself unless the culture shows that baytril will be effective - abscesses need aggressive, and targetted treatment. Injectable depocillin is a common one, but other antibiotics may be used. It's best if a culture can be taken to establish which antibiotic would be most effective, but this cannot be taken once the rabbit is already on antibiotics.

Is your bunny on pain relief? Metacam is a common painkiller. Although she may not appear to be in pain, rabbits hide it very well. It would be wise to get her on metacam if she's not already.

This is my thread about my bunny Nena, she's currently being treated for a tooth root/jaw abscess. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?415173-Nena-s-jaw-tooth-root-abscess

This is my previous thread - the abscess at this time was only drained, and as you can see it came back within about 6 months or so. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...bscess)-Final-U-D-December-she-s-still-fine-)

They really do need the abscess and abscess capsule to be removed to have a hope of getting rid of it for good. The treatment afterwards is quite intensive, but it seems like you're already doing the flushing many times a day so it'll pretty much just be that plus some medication.

This is a really interesting PDF from the vet I'm using at the moment. Jack's Jane on here actually linked it in another thread and I've bookmarked it. Marie Kubiak is one of the top rabbit vets in the country - she knows what she's on about and it's a fantastic read http://www.manorvets.co.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/files/dental dz(1).pdf

Thanks Yaretzi - you.re a star!
 
I live in Essex (south Essex) I am about to go back to the vets tonight to get something stronger to flush the abscess with. The vet seems to be happy with how things are going at the moment? No she is not on any pain relief. We did speak to him about removing the whole lot but he didn't think it was necessary at the stage?

I am so worried about loosing her, i am happy to try and do anything!

Salt water/saline is a great thing to flush the wound with, but something with antibacterial/disinfectant properties would be slightly better. Many people use (on the advice of their vet) saline and F10 solution mixed together, iodine solution, or diluted hibiscrub. The thing is that something stronger to flush the abscess with may get the abscess cavity clean, but unless the capsule is removed it will re-occur.

The vet sounds quite good, but he doesn't sound like an expert. He's doing some things right - appropriate things to flush the wound with, and I assume he mentioned manuka honey? The thing is that rabbit abscesses are notoriously hard to deal with and need very aggressive treatment - abscesses in other animals may respond well to lancing and flushing, but rabbits don't. They need surgically removing in order to have any chance at fixing the problem. Rabbits need appropriate and often multiple antibiotics, as well as painkillers. Surgery is a necessity really, unless it's complicated for any reason - i.e. rabbit with existing heart conditions/intolerance to anaesthetic, or if the abscess is in a place where it's too hard to remove (i.e. wrapped around a bone/tooth or something).

Your bunny absolutely should be on pain relief - bunnies hide their pain very well. Please ask him to prescribe you some metacam. I'm frankly shocked that he hasn't put her on any :(

Please don't worry too much - with you cleaning it 2-3 times daily it shouldn't progress to any stage where you'd need to have her put to sleep. If you have her on painkillers it probably won't be affecting her quality of life too much. It's just that with this current treatment it's unlikely to go away, and if it does it will come back. It's very difficult because if it keeps coming back every few months you'll be spending a lot of the time treating her but not getting anywhere, and that's a horrible situation to be in. I've learned myself how heartbreaking it is to go through a load of treatment, only to know that it will re-occur. When I was with my old vet I felt she was doing the best she could, but I knew deep down that the treatment she was having wasn't going to fix her forever. I switched to a more experienced exotic vets who performed surgery and whilst the current treatment is quite hard work, it's soo much easier because I know that this treatment has a really good chance of fixing the problem forever.

I would definitely say your best course of action is to get painkillers asap, and speak to your vet about surgery and more aggressive antibiotics. If your vet isn't willing to attempt surgery I would look for another vet, and if he isn't willing to give you painkillers I would absolutely look for another vet asap. Not prescribing painkillers is terrible.

EDIT: If you want to change vets I would definitely recommend asking here in rabbit chat for a 'rabbit savvy vet in South Essex', and/or checking your local area for exotics specialists vets. Rabbits are classed as exotics, so non exotic specialists vets will not have the same knowledge that an exotics specialist will have. Rabbits are very different to cats and dogs, and what is appropriate for them may be wildly inappropriate for buns. From a quick google search, this place appears quite good: http://www.southbeechvet.co.uk/exotic_pets.html
 
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Salt water/saline is a great thing to flush the wound with, but something with antibacterial/disinfectant properties would be slightly better. Many people use (on the advice of their vet) saline and F10 solution mixed together, iodine solution, or diluted hibiscrub. The thing is that something stronger to flush the abscess with may get the abscess cavity clean, but unless the capsule is removed it will re-occur.

The vet sounds quite good, but he doesn't sound like an expert. He's doing some things right - appropriate things to flush the wound with, and I assume he mentioned manuka honey? The thing is that rabbit abscesses are notoriously hard to deal with and need very aggressive treatment - abscesses in other animals may respond well to lancing and flushing, but rabbits don't. They need surgically removing in order to have any chance at fixing the problem. Rabbits need appropriate and often multiple antibiotics, as well as painkillers. Surgery is a necessity really, unless it's complicated for any reason - i.e. rabbit with existing heart conditions/intolerance to anaesthetic, or if the abscess is in a place where it's too hard to remove (i.e. wrapped around a bone/tooth or something).

Your bunny absolutely should be on pain relief - bunnies hide their pain very well. Please ask him to prescribe you some metacam. I'm frankly shocked that he hasn't put her on any :(

Please don't worry too much - with you cleaning it 2-3 times daily it shouldn't progress to any stage where you'd need to have her put to sleep. If you have her on painkillers it probably won't be affecting her quality of life too much. It's just that with this current treatment it's unlikely to go away, and if it does it will come back. It's very difficult because if it keeps coming back every few months you'll be spending a lot of the time treating her but not getting anywhere, and that's a horrible situation to be in. I've learned myself how heartbreaking it is to go through a load of treatment, only to know that it will re-occur. When I was with my old vet I felt she was doing the best she could, but I knew deep down that the treatment she was having wasn't going to fix her forever. I switched to a more experienced exotic vets who performed surgery and whilst the current treatment is quite hard work, it's soo much easier because I know that this treatment has a really good chance of fixing the problem forever.

I would definitely say your best course of action is to get painkillers asap, and speak to your vet about surgery and more aggressive antibiotics. If your vet isn't willing to attempt surgery I would look for another vet, and if he isn't willing to give you painkillers I would absolutely look for another vet asap. Not prescribing painkillers is terrible.

EDIT: If you want to change vets I would definitely recommend asking here in rabbit chat for a 'rabbit savvy vet in South Essex', and/or checking your local area for exotics specialists vets. Rabbits are classed as exotics, so non exotic specialists vets will not have the same knowledge that an exotics specialist will have. Rabbits are very different to cats and dogs, and what is appropriate for them may be wildly inappropriate for buns. From a quick google search, this place appears quite good: http://www.southbeechvet.co.uk/exotic_pets.html
Hi.

I have just collected some diluted hibiscrub from the vets, I also have called Southbeech vets, ( as mentioned above) that is quite close to me and the soonest they can fit her in is Friday morning. So we have had all of her notes fax over already. I spoke to him again about pain and he seems to think she is doing really well and not even moving when you clean her? I hate the thought that she could be in pain so i wanted this sorted immediately.

We are now on day 7 and i have noticed the swelling has reduced.

I am already using the Manuka honey since last night. Thank you for you kind words, i've not been sleeping with the worry that she will need to be put down.

I will be happier to seek a second opinion.
 
Hi.

I have just collected some diluted hibiscrub from the vets, I also have called Southbeech vets, ( as mentioned above) that is quite close to me and the soonest they can fit her in is Friday morning. So we have had all of her notes fax over already. I spoke to him again about pain and he seems to think she is doing really well and not even moving when you clean her? I hate the thought that she could be in pain so i wanted this sorted immediately.

We are now on day 7 and i have noticed the swelling has reduced.

I am already using the Manuka honey since last night. Thank you for you kind words, i've not been sleeping with the worry that she will need to be put down.

I will be happier to seek a second opinion.

The hibiscrub sounds fantastic. Salt water is great, but it's a little better to have something a little bit antibacterial in these cases. I've got no personal experience of Southbeech vets but they should know what they're talking about since they're an exotics specialist. They may well agree with your current vet, and if so you'll feel a lot more confident with the treatment and can then choose who to proceed with :D I would think they'd put her on painkillers, and hopefully they might be willing to surgically remove it unless they can think of any complications.

How far down her neck is it? Could you maybe post a picture or two? Hopefully it's not intertwined with any arteries or nerves as that could complicate matters. If she needs any x-rays before surgery, it's fairly common to book them into surgery and then do the x-rays on the morning of surgery. If everything is okay they then go ahead and operate, and if not they won't. Just in case you worry if they suggest they do that - it depends how often you go to the vets! I know my mom was a bit worried about it the first time the vet suggested it for my bunnies. Depending on where it is they might not need to x-ray - for instance, if it's very obviously not tooth related they may not need to :D

The fact that the swelling has gone down is fantastic, you're obviously doing a really good job cleaning it out. That's the most important thing as abscesses are impossible to resolve without a dedicated owner who doesn't mind getting in there and getting that pus out! It's very satisfying to get a whole load of pus out isn't it :lol:

Fingers crossed for Friday morning, I hope everything goes well. Waiting around for an appointment is very frustrating and worrying isn't it. Do update us :D
 
Hope everything went okay today :D (Unless you changed to the other vet, in which case I hope it goes okay when you see him!)
 
The William Lewis recommendation looks good :D It may be worth switching to him, if he's near? I think the one I suggested should be good, but having one that multiple people recommend would be fantastic :D

If you live in South Essex I would really recommend going to see William Lewis, He's great and has treated a jaw abscess in one of my rabbits and a ear abscess in another, both have healed well, you won't find a better rabbit vet in the area.
 
Update.
So... we got Bluebell to Southbeech Vets and after being told by the other vets that it was not tooth related, it was! There was also another pocket of infection (abscess) that we wasn't cleaning or could get to.
The X-ray revealed her back tooth had snapped and crumbled. We continued over the weekend to wash out and applied honey. The vets told us there was only 50% chance it would be okay but I had to try and save her.

She had her operation today. The vet is happy with the out come he removed 2 teeth and removed the whole of the abscess. She has come around and is standing up.
He doesn't think the infection has gone into the bone or cheek. He actually said this morning that he thought it has reduced in size over the weekend. We are not out of the woods yet but in much more of a positive position.

I would just like to say thank everyone for their help and support.

M X
 
Update.
So... we got Bluebell to Southbeech Vets and after being told by the other vets that it was not tooth related, it was! There was also another pocket of infection (abscess) that we wasn't cleaning or could get to.
The X-ray revealed her back tooth had snapped and crumbled. We continued over the weekend to wash out and applied honey. The vets told us there was only 50% chance it would be okay but I had to try and save her.

She had her operation today. The vet is happy with the out come he removed 2 teeth and removed the whole of the abscess. She has come around and is standing up.
He doesn't think the infection has gone into the bone or cheek. He actually said this morning that he thought it has reduced in size over the weekend. We are not out of the woods yet but in much more of a positive position.

I would just like to say thank everyone for their help and support.

M X

Absolutely fantastic news :love: I'm so glad you were able to find a good vet who's been able to operate successfully :love: The abscess cleaning/honey routine is quite a hassle at times but I bet you'll feel similar to me... it's more than worth the effort to do the routine since you know she has a good chance. It's very disheartening cleaning out an abscess that you know will come back.

There's some information on my thread that might help you: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?415173-Nena-s-jaw-tooth-root-abscess. I've been trying to document it all to help others out. It seems that Bluebell and Nena have their abscesses in similar places! I'm at nearly 5 weeks post-op now so I'm just about getting there...
 
Absolutely fantastic news :love: I'm so glad you were able to find a good vet who's been able to operate successfully :love: The abscess cleaning/honey routine is quite a hassle at times but I bet you'll feel similar to me... it's more than worth the effort to do the routine since you know she has a good chance. It's very disheartening cleaning out an abscess that you know will come back.

There's some information on my thread that might help you: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?415173-Nena-s-jaw-tooth-root-abscess. I've been trying to document it all to help others out. It seems that Bluebell and Nena have their abscesses in similar places! I'm at nearly 5 weeks post-op now so I'm just about getting there...

thank you, I will look at that.

I am happy to put in anything that's needed to get her better all I need now is a small bank loan to pay the vets. ;
 
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