Arthritis or UTI? UPDATE : Neither, a neurological degenerative disease.

During my weekly thorough inspection of Boris yesterday I discovered signs of urine scald and staining of his belly and inside back legs. I bathed him, dried him off and then gave him some a dosage of the Metacam left over from his previous "water infection" back in mid December. I also applied some of the F10 cream I was given then to the affected areas.

Today, I've examined him twice. This morning it looked OK, slightly pink/red, but no worse, so I gave some metacam (the last of it) and applied the F10 cream. This evening again and it's looking just as bad, if not worse (looking under electric light makes the skin seem redder), so again I applied F10 cream on the affected areas. His under belly felt damp, as did the inside legs.

So off to the vets tomorrow evening with my poor chap (I'm at work during the day otherwise I'd have gone there at 9am).

Last time he was in with this, the vets scanned his bladder and did blood tests and x-rays. They said no sign of kidney disease, no sign of sludge or stones, no sign of arthritis of the hips, they said his leg movement seemed OK and that he had slightly elevated white blood count, but couldn't say if that was an UTI or due to his scald marks. Since then I've been regularly checking for signs of UTI and until this weekend no sign of wetness or scalding.

This evening, whilst he was eating I noticed he was holding his back leg off of the floor as per the (hopefully working!) video. I've mentioned 3 times to the vets my concerns for Boris having arthritis. I noticed some strange "positioning" of his back legs when resting before - stretched out in front of him - and occasionally strange behaviour when turning around (he seemed to turn by pivoting on the back leg, very weird and hence difficult to describe!). Does this look like the signs of arthritis or could this be due to his inside leg being sore from the scald? I intend to show this video to the vets tomorrow as to be honest I feel they've not taken my concerns seriously.


His mobility in general seems OK, i.e. he can scramble up and down the ramp in his hutch, before this video he had rushed to the cage door in anticipation of being fed (he's eating carrot tops in the video) and he's been hoping around the garden today enjoying the sun but I have seen him stumble in his hutch this evening a couple of times and he's not as agile as I think he should be as he seems to "drag" his back legs more than he should.

(p.s. Incase anyone mentions E.C as a possible cause of the above issues, I did think that it might be a possibility after the December episode and so as a precaution, I gave him a full 28 day course of Panacur and weekly bleach cleaning of the hutch during that period.)

Bump!

I was thinking EC all the way through reading that until the end when you mentioned he'd had the course of Panacur. I guess there's always the possibility he could have got reinfected? :?

Sorry I'm not much help, just wanted to send lots of vibes really x

I would be thinking EC would be a possibility aswell did you bleach the environment?
When Evan had really high EC titre I had to bleach his environment have him re-tested then give another 28 day course of panacur the d1ck vet said sometimes depending on EC levels in the blood 28 days isn't always enough and there is always the possibility that he has had EC and it's caused nerve damage which is lasting.
Could he have fallen and injured himself? And possibly this isn't related to the illness in December?
Sorry I can't be of more help vibes for your bunny

Have you checked the hock on the effected leg ? To me his actions look like they may be related to severe sore hocks/ulcerative pododermatitis.

Jack's-Jane said:

Have you checked the hock on the effected leg ? To me his actions look like they may be related to severe sore hocks/ulcerative pododermatitis.

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Yes, i do think he has a bit of sore hock going on. There is redness there, but no broken skin or weeping sores. I was thinking that this could be caused by him standing in urine as well.

I'm just waiting for the vets to open so i can book him in. He was ok this morning, no sign of him holding his foot up and the scalding wasn't any worse. I will be glad to find out the cause of this as it's distressing to think he's in pain.

Just back from the vets and the signs point to arthritis. Sore hock was ruled out as the vet didn't think there was any sign of that, aside from some soreness around the heel which he thinks was urine scald. After watching Boris hop around for a bit, he said there was stiffness on both back legs. A dip-stick test of a urine sample showed no blood in the urine, but a bit of protein. So, I've been sent home with some Metacam, Baytril and some more F10 Barrier cream, which is what I expected.

I picked up some vetbed today, so will try that in his hutch on the next clean out to see if it helps keep any wetness away from his skin. My only concern is that he'll start to try to eat it

Got some of this ordered too, so hoping it helps too ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007PZEC52/ref=pe_385721_37038051_TE_dp_1

Jack's-Jane said:

Have you checked the hock on the effected leg ? To me his actions look like they may be related to severe sore hocks/ulcerative pododermatitis.

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This.

I would probably pop him to the vet. He shouldn't have urine scald or be wet at all. Is your vet rabbit savvy?

tommo1975 said:

Just back from the vets and the signs point to arthritis. Sore hock was ruled out as the vet didn't think there was any sign of that, aside from some soreness around the heel which he thinks was urine scald. After watching Boris hop around for a bit, he said there was stiffness on both back legs. A dip-stick test of a urine sample showed no blood in the urine, but a bit of protein. So, I've been sent home with some Metacam, Baytril and some more F10 Barrier cream, which is what I expected.

I picked up some vetbed today, so will try that in his hutch on the next clean out to see if it helps keep any wetness away from his skin. My only concern is that he'll start to try to eat it

Got some of this ordered too, so hoping it helps too ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007PZEC52/ref=pe_385721_37038051_TE_dp_1

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Hi my older boy bun arthritis and has injections every 6ms to help. Poor bun x sending vibes

tommo1975 said:

Just back from the vets and the signs point to arthritis. Sore hock was ruled out as the vet didn't think there was any sign of that, aside from some soreness around the heel which he thinks was urine scald. After watching Boris hop around for a bit, he said there was stiffness on both back legs. A dip-stick test of a urine sample showed no blood in the urine, but a bit of protein. So, I've been sent home with some Metacam, Baytril and some more F10 Barrier cream, which is what I expected.

I picked up some vetbed today, so will try that in his hutch on the next clean out to see if it helps keep any wetness away from his skin. My only concern is that he'll start to try to eat it

Got some of this ordered too, so hoping it helps too ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007PZEC52/ref=pe_385721_37038051_TE_dp_1

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Sorry, I totally didn't see this. *Face palm*. Apologies.

I have got a bun with arthritis. He is much better when I keep the room warm. Is it possible to bring him indoors? Also, you mentioned a ramp, is there anyway to take this out? Make sure he has lots of space to run about, and flop in whatever position he feels comfortable. My bun has sore hocks because of his arthritis, and he is on daily metacam to manage the pain. He has lots and lots of towels, vet beds, pillows etc to sit on.

Hopefully he just has a mild infection and will stop wetting himself once recovered from this. x

Vegan_Bunny said:

Sorry, I totally didn't see this. *Face palm*. Apologies.

I have got a bun with arthritis. He is much better when I keep the room warm. Is it possible to bring him indoors? Also, you mentioned a ramp, is there anyway to take this out? Make sure he has lots of space to run about, and flop in whatever position he feels comfortable. My bun has sore hocks because of his arthritis, and he is on daily metacam to manage the pain. He has lots and lots of towels, vet beds, pillows etc to sit on.

Hopefully he just has a mild infection and will stop wetting himself once recovered from this. x

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Bringing him indoors is not an option especially as he's not house trained nor is the house rabbit proof, there's really not the room either. I'd have him indoors in a heartbeat if I had the room to set up an area for him and the other half would agree to it! (will never happen sadly!).

Getting rid of his ramp would more than halve his roaming area as he's in a large 2 storey hutch. Upstairs has his food, water, a litter tray and an area stuffed with straw and hay, this is where he spends most of his time. Downstairs has water, hay, another 2 litter trays and more room for him to move, lay about etc. I'd rather leave him the option to be upstairs or down depending on his mood TBH rather that denying him that choice by removing the ramp.

I do intend to make changes in his hutch though, such as creating a hideaway full of straw and hay downstairs and keeping food there too, I just need to think them through more before implementing. If only rabbits could operate lifts or a stanna stairlift - I'd fit one of them for him if he could! :lol:

Does he have a run attached? If he doesn't, you might want to install a permanent one. A bun with arthritis always benefits from having regular, gentle exercise.

Is he neutered, btw? I think litter training him would certainly benefit him, even if it just means his hutch is kept dry and clean.

I would also put in a snuggle safe, or something similar for him to sit on, this may help to ease his joints. What substrate do you use in his hutch?

Vegan_Bunny said:

Does he have a run attached? If he doesn't, you might want to install a permanent one. A bun with arthritis always benefits from having regular, gentle exercise.

Is he neutered, btw? I think litter training him would certainly benefit him, even if it just means his hutch is kept dry and clean.

I would also put in a snuggle safe, or something similar for him to sit on, this may help to ease his joints. What substrate do you use in his hutch?

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He is neutered, he was done last July and it was at that time when I first noticed something was amiss with his legs (although the vets at the time dismissed my concerns).

Alas he's not that litter trained, infact he's gotten worse since being neutered! Oh! have I tried to get him to pee in the trays! The best I have ever seen him do is sit in his litter tray and stand at the edge and direct his pee outside it! :? I have moved his litter trays (both the proper rabbit corner ones and rectangular cat litter tray) around to try to find a position that'd encourage him to use them more. His current preference appears to be to pee on the "landing" upstairs, which does him no good at all as he walks through the pool to get to his food dishes and water! :roll: I'm at a loss on how to discourage him peeing on the landing as there's no room to put a litter tray there and he seems adept at ignoring them anyway (cleaning with bleach, rabbit hutch cleaners etc did nothing to stop it). Downstairs he ignores the litter trays in the corners and pees in the centre! When I put the tray in the centre, he ignored it and pee'd beside it

The use of the word "substrate" threw me, but I think I get what your asking Downstairs the floor is lined with a thick layer of newspaper only. Upstairs, the landing has nothing, although it has a floor of roofing felt, which was there originally to give him some grip but after a couple of years is now smooth and not rough. In his hiding area upstairs is a very thick layer of newspaper, topped with a thick layer of straw, topped with a layer of hay. All litter trays are newspaper-sawdust-hay lined.

I'll be putting vet bed on the "landing" at the weekend after the weekly" big clean" to see if that helps. if he doesn't attack it or eat it, then I'll get more for his hiding area to replace the newspaper.

tommo1975 said:

He is neutered, he was done last July and it was at that time when I first noticed something was amiss with his legs (although the vets at the time dismissed my concerns).

Alas he's not that litter trained, infact he's gotten worse since being neutered! Oh! have I tried to get him to pee in the trays! The best I have ever seen him do is sit in his litter tray and stand at the edge and direct his pee outside it! :? I have moved his litter trays (both the proper rabbit corner ones and rectangular cat litter tray) around to try to find a position that'd encourage him to use them more. His current preference appears to be to pee on the "landing" upstairs, which does him no good at all as he walks through the pool to get to his food dishes and water! :roll: I'm at a loss on how to discourage him peeing on the landing as there's no room to put a litter tray there and he seems adept at ignoring them anyway (cleaning with bleach, rabbit hutch cleaners etc did nothing to stop it). Downstairs he ignores the litter trays in the corners and pees in the centre! When I put the tray in the centre, he ignored it and pee'd beside it

The use of the word "substrate" threw me, but I think I get what your asking Downstairs the floor is lined with a thick layer of newspaper only. Upstairs, the landing has nothing, although it has a floor of roofing felt, which was there originally to give him some grip but after a couple of years is now smooth and not rough. In his hiding area upstairs is a very thick layer of newspaper, topped with a thick layer of straw, topped with a layer of hay. All litter trays are newspaper-sawdust-hay lined.

I'll be putting vet bed on the "landing" at the weekend after the weekly" big clean" to see if that helps. if he doesn't attack it or eat it, then I'll get more for his hiding area to replace the newspaper.

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The newspaper may be the problem with his peeing. I would definitely suggest vet bed, especially as he will be more prone to sore hocks with you mentioning him hopping oddly. Mine did chew it at first (apparently new vet bed is the perfect thing to chew :roll but they never ingested it. Keep an eye on him to make sure he doesn't. Hopefully he will be fine. You could actually try washing it first..mine stop chewing vet bed once washed. :?

Have you tried a storage box as a litter tray? I find that mine won't pee in smaller ones, or will pee over the side of it. :roll: I use megazorb and hay in mine. I'd certainly give it a go, if I were you. It would make cleaning easier! :thumb: If h struggles to hop in and out of it, you can actually cut the side out, so it's lower. I was also recommended a kind of potting tray (I can't find the exact one now, but will post the link when I do) for when Fiver lost the use of his leg.

Vegan_Bunny said:

The newspaper may be the problem with his peeing. I would definitely suggest vet bed, especially as he will be more prone to sore hocks with you mentioning him hopping oddly. Mine did chew it at first (apparently new vet bed is the perfect thing to chew :roll but they never ingested it. Keep an eye on him to make sure he doesn't. Hopefully he will be fine. You could actually try washing it first..mine stop chewing vet bed once washed. :?

Have you tried a storage box as a litter tray? I find that mine won't pee in smaller ones, or will pee over the side of it. :roll: I use megazorb and hay in mine. I'd certainly give it a go, if I were you. It would make cleaning easier! :thumb: If h struggles to hop in and out of it, you can actually cut the side out, so it's lower. I was also recommended a kind of potting tray (I can't find the exact one now, but will post the link when I do) for when Fiver lost the use of his leg.

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Storage boxes - as in the under bed storage boxes you see piled up outside Poundland shops? - are an idea, but as you said he'd have difficulty getting in and out. I'm handy with a saw though and should be able to sandpaper down any rough edges. :thumb:

In light of what you've said, I'll set about washing the vet bed before I put it in the hutch! I have visions of it being shredded one hour after being put in there, so anything to save it from that! That's why I'm saving it until the weekend to put in there so I can keep an eye on his reaction to it.

tommo1975 said:

Storage boxes - as in the under bed storage boxes you see piled up outside Poundland shops? - are an idea, but as you said he'd have difficulty getting in and out. I'm handy with a saw though and should be able to sandpaper down any rough edges. :thumb:

In light of what you've said, I'll set about washing the vet bed before I put it in the hutch! I have visions of it being shredded one hour after being put in there, so anything to save it from that! That's why I'm saving it until the weekend to put in there so I can keep an eye on his reaction to it.

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Make sure not to use any fabric softner and only use a little bit of detergent (possibly could get away with not using any at all as it's not dirty!).

How is he doing anyway? Is he dryer?

Vegan_Bunny said:

Make sure not to use any fabric softner and only use a little bit of detergent (possibly could get away with not using any at all as it's not dirty!).

How is he doing anyway? Is he dryer?

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He appears to be more lively, for example when i went out this morning some of his toys that were upstairs were downstairs and he'd been moving the willow ball around downstairs too as it was on the opposite side of the hutch. So overnight he'd clearly been up and downstairs and energetic with it.

He does appear drier too, although to be fair I never found him wet, only slightly damp to the touch and even then only the once on Sunday. The better indication are the scald marks, which are are better, aside from the heel of one foot and his penis, all his skin is a healthy pink, while his heel and penis aren't as red as before.

He's in for a trim of his back end this weekend and another bathe, this will enable me to say with certainty whether he's still having issues. I have 3 metres of vetbed on order to go with the 2 metres i have already and this will enable me to do the upstairs and have an amount I can swap in whilst I wash the first lot. Going to pick up a storage box today too so I can set that up this weekend.

I wouldn't bathe him. The best thing you can do is use a damp cloth to clean him up, but tbh, if he isn't wet, you may cause more problems by doing this. Personally, I'd just trim him, if he is dry then that will do. The urine scald sounds quite mild, so hopefully it will heal up now that he is recovering.

Do you think he might be having a bit of trouble cleaning himself? Possibly this is why he's had a bit of urine scald.

I've only experience urine scald the once and only had to clean a bun up once, but she had bad kidney problems and a UTI so she was absolutely soaking for about a week, until the anibiotics kicked in.

Vegan_Bunny said:

I wouldn't bathe him. The best thing you can do is use a damp cloth to clean him up, but tbh, if he isn't wet, you may cause more problems by doing this. Personally, I'd just trim him, if he is dry then that will do. The urine scald sounds quite mild, so hopefully it will heal up now that he is recovering.

Do you think he might be having a bit of trouble cleaning himself? Possibly this is why he's had a bit of urine scald.

I've only experience urine scald the once and only had to clean a bun up once, but she had bad kidney problems and a UTI so she was absolutely soaking for about a week, until the anibiotics kicked in.

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Forgot to reply to your points and question!

I do think there must be an element of not being able to clean himself, especially as I found a lump of poo and matted fur stuck to the base of his tail 3 weeks back which I had to remove. However, he didn't have any problems cleaning off the F10 ointment I was putting on last weekend, so it's not the whole story. :roll:

I found him damp/wet at the base of his back/tail this evening which was disappointing as I had hoped for major progress 3 days into antibiotics/pain relief, but I guess this will take time to sort out. I cannot begin to fathom how he gets wet there though; I can imagine the inside of his legs and his belly, but there?? Still, this does encourage me to give him a bathe this weekend, if only in pain ordinary water as opposed to the sensitive small animal shampoo I had used last weekend. I don't like the idea of urine soaked fur remaining on him, especially as the F10 barrier ointment is meant to be applied to clean skin. I'll trim his back end and underside carefully of the scraggly fur first and make a judgement, after also trying the damp cloth approach. The good thing is that he is surprisingly calm and trusting of me when I have bathed him the both times in the past, I think he likes all the attention if truth me told!

Bathing bunnies is a big no-no, I'm afraid. A bun would NEVER need bathing, even if they had a mucky/wet bum. Use the damp cloth, and certainly NEVER use the shampoo. A rabbit should never ever be soaked in water, under no circumstances. It can cause so many problems, that it is simply not worth it.