is there another explanation? UD possible pts :( 2ND UD: Heart disease suspected

Alfie has been rushed to the vets by me multiple times for mouthbreathing. Every single time the vet has examined him thoroughly and found no reason why he is doing it, other than needing a dental
alfie is doing it again, is perfectly fine in himself but is booked in for another dental. He is eating fine and is great in himself.
could the mouthbreathing be to do with the fact he needs a dental?
He is nearly 4 years old, perhaps a dutch cross but we have no idea really
any help is appreciated

True mouth breathing is indicative of a respiratory tract problem or a heart problem. Could you post a video showing exactly what he is doing ?

Jack's-Jane said:

True mouth breathing is indicative of a respiratory tract problem or a heart problem. Could you post a video showing exactly what he is doing ?

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I think I posted a picture the first time it happened on here, I could never work out how to post a video!
He has his head right back showing his bottom teeth. Ive seen videos of it before and its very similar to that.
Its just the vets have never found anything wrong with him
:?

I have been to the vets this morning
she said his breathing was really laboured and she suspected abcesses or something? Gave him baytril I think but said id probably have to make the decision to pts. I was upset so I dont quite understand whats wrong but im allowed to visit him at the vets later as they're keeping him in.
please can someone attempt to explain to me?
im at a loss of what to do, he means so much to me

What an awful shock you've had. I'm so sorry. Has he had snuffles? Our vet told us that a chronic pasterella infection can cause abcesses to form on the lungs. Is your vet rabbit savvy?

It sounds as though the Vet thinks that Alfie has an infection on his lungs, sometimes this can cause the formation of multiple small abscesses all over the lungs which obviously severely impairs their ability to function.

Has the Vet mentioned attempting to take a conscious chest Xray ? That may provide a little more information.

However, given that you have said that Alfie has remained very well within himself and that the mouth breathing episodes 'come and go' I am wondering if he has a heart problem rather than a bacterial lung infection. A chest Xray may provide some information about the size of his heart.

She mentioned x ray but said it would be done under anaesthetic and so is too dangerous. I think she mentioned pastuerella or something?
I was so shocked when she said pts I don't think I took it all in

im getting my dad to ring them when he gets home to have a chat to see exactly what she says

she is quite rabbit savvy I think, she definitely specialises in smaller animals

I have to say, I'd be tempted to go and see your bun and her. At least by seeing your bun you can gauge for yourself how he is.

I'd definitely ask her about a conscious x-ray as this would give more information. The fact the problem has been coming and going does not fit necessarily.

I'd also have a look around your local area to see if there are any other vets should you need one.




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He'd done it in the past but I was noticing it more recently which is why I was concernedspecialist at mour vetsetse going back later to see him and give him food but I wanted my dad to ring before the vets closes (it closes at 12 to the public) to get an idea

she didnt mention a conscious x ray, is is definitely worth doing?
do you think theres any hope for him?

I live in kent, I dont know where the nearest rabbit savvy vet is. But she is the rabbit specialist for our vets


sorry I realised my phone completely messed up my post

smellinor said:

She mentioned x ray but said it would be done under anaesthetic and so is too dangerous. I think she mentioned pastuerella or something?
I was so shocked when she said pts I don't think I took it all in

im getting my dad to ring them when he gets home to have a chat to see exactly what she says

she is quite rabbit savvy I think, she definitely specialises in smaller animals

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Pasteurella is a bacteria that causes many disease processes in Rabbits, including those related to the Respiratory Tract. What I find odd here and what makes me question the diagnosis is the fact that 1- the problem has been going on for some time, 2-the symptoms are intermittent, 3- Alfie has been well within himself throughout, 4- He has clearly gotten through GAs to have the Dentals.

To me that makes heart disease sound to be a real possibility based on what I have seen in the Rabbits I have cared for who have had/have heart problems.

It may be that Alfie has a lot of fluid in his chest which would also impair his lung function. If so then a diuretic would be very helpful and the benefit would be rapid. So I would ask the Vet about this too.

smellinor said:

He'd done it in the past but I was noticing it more recently which is why I was concernedspecialist at mour vetsetse going back later to see him and give him food but I wanted my dad to ring before the vets closes (it closes at 12 to the public) to get an idea

she didnt mention a conscious x ray, is is definitely worth doing?
do you think theres any hope for him?

I live in kent, I dont know where the nearest rabbit savvy vet is. But she is the rabbit specialist for our vets

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If you are in Kent I highly recommend Trinity Vets in Maidstone, especially Mark Rowland

http://www.trinityvetcentre.co.uk/Trinity_Vet_Centre/Home.html

Jack's-Jane said:

Pasteurella is a bacteria that causes many disease processes in Rabbits, including those related to th respiratory Tract. What I find odd here and what makes me question the diagnosis is the fact that 1- the problem has been going on for some time, 2-the symptoms are intermittent, 3- Alfie has been well within himself throughout, 4- He has clearly gotten through GAs to have the Dentals.

To me that makes heart disease sound to be a real possibility based on what I have seen in the Rabbits I have cared for who have had/have heart problems.

It may be that Alfie has a lot of fluid in his chest which would also impair his lung function. If so then a diuretic would be very helpful and the benefit would be rapid. So I would ask the Vet about this too.

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Thanks so much for your advice, I will talk to the vet about it. I really dont want to be rushed into a decision. Though i worry hes in pain

When I see alfie and the vet again, what questions should I be asking and what can I ask them to do?
Thanks for all your help

smellinor said:

When I see alfie and the vet again, what questions should I be asking and what can I ask them to do?
Thanks for all your help

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I'd ask for a conscious Xray if Alfie would co-operate and not get stressed. A conscious Xray would only give limited information, but it may be possible to see an enlarged heart and/or fluid in the chest cavity.

If the Vet feels this not to be an option then I would ask about the possibility of heart disease as opposed to infection. Heart disease in Rabbits can be hard to diagnose if the Vet has limited experience of it. It is unfortunately often misdiagnosed as being a bacterial lung infection-ie pasteurella.

If you are not happy with the Vet's opinion dont let him/her rush you into making a PTS decision. You could ask for an Urgent referral to Trinity Vets to obtain a second opinion. Also, even if it is a bacterial infection Alfie has only been on antibiotics for 24 hours. Far too soon for any benefit to be seen and unless he has deteriorated markedly and is suffering a lot I personally think it is far too soon to make a PTS decision.

Thankyou so much, your advice is really helpful and im just praying he gets better

he is usually really calm but was very agitated today so maybe thats why she didnt suggest a conscious x ray.

Im still shocked and my head is all muddled

I've been to the vets and had a chat with both the vet and the nurse (who knows Alfie very well after all the dentals he's had)
he's on baytril? the antibiotics and they're seeing how that goes. The vet admitted she might have panicked me a bit with the mentioning of pts, because they had an emergency with a cat and probably didn't word it right. I'm still confused as to why she mentioned it and nothing else if there are other options

anyway, he had perked up a bit but was still mouth breathing, but not as much and not as bad. the vet said he was doing it a lot more when he was stressed. they're keeping him in, he was looking a little lethargic and grinding his teeth a little so the nurse is looking to give him some metacam

the prognosis she said is a definite lung infection, they don't want to do an x ray at the moment since he was stressed enough while trying to look at his teeth so a conscious x ray would only stress him more and they don't want to risk a GA until they are sure that his breathing is improving. They said if the antibiotics work, they will keep him on them and teach me how to inject him as he is very difficult to syringe medication/feeding. Though it's still looking like touch and go if he doesn't respond to the anti biotics.

I think I'm still in a state of shock since I never imagined this would happen

Sorry to keep posting more than once in a row (not sure if its allowed on here)

Alfie has been at the vets for 2 days now
Last night I was allowed to see Alfie and he looked pretty low and ill and was still doing the mouth breathing. The nurse rang later in the evening to explain he had got so excited about food and had started to eat so quickly he made his breathing so bad he had to be given oxygen but that he recovered after that and had no more episodes

This morning the nurse rang and let me speak to the vet treating him who explained they believe it is heart disease (so Jacks-Jane you obviously know your stuff!) as when they were monitoring him his heart rhythm was very irregular. He was put on heart meds and they almost immediately saw a change in the heart rhythm. The breathing difficulties are becoming less frequent and not as bad but he is still having difficulties. He is having metacam for pain as we also believe he might need a dental (they say GA is far too risky at the moment but he's still eating which is good), diuretics and anti biotics.

At the moment the outlook is not definite that he will recover, they aren't certain whether the heart problem came first and the lungs followed or the other way round. All I know is he looked so much brighter today and more active even if he did seem to get a bit out of breath.

They did say if he is allowed home he will be on the heart meds long term.

Thanks everyone so much for their advice, I also honestly can't praise the vets and nurse enough as they've been ringing me non stop and letting me visit whenever I want!

Well I'm pleased to hear you are getting some good help. Paws crossed for you both.


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Glad there ahs been an improvement, you must be so relieved

So so relieved you wouldn't believe! I have hardly slept or eaten I was worrying so much, tonight I can get a bit more rest knowing he seems to be improving!

I know it's still early days though, but fingers crossed

Thankyou everyone!