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Something I Dont Understand About the use of Probiotics in Rabbits

J

Jack's-Jane

Wise Old Thumper
Giving probiotics to Rabbits is usually done in an attempt to re-establish healthy flora in the cecum. But Rabbits have a VERY acid stomach. The reason cecotrophs 'work' is because they are swallowed whole and the mucous coating protects the healthy flora from the acidic environment of the stomach. So why does the very acidic environment of the stomach not destroy probiotics given orally :?
 
When the vet thought Ellie had E. C rather than probiotics or anything I was told the best thing is to get normal poops from a healthy bunny (Stephen) and mix it with food pellets into a mush so she would eat it. Not sure if that would help or not either though really?

:? Not sure how effective probiotics would be really, as you've said.
 
Cari said:
When the vet thought Ellie had E. C rather than probiotics or anything I was told the best thing is to get normal poops from a healthy bunny (Stephen) and mix it with food pellets into a mush so she would eat it. Not sure if that would help or not either though really?

:? Not sure how effective probiotics would be really, as you've said.
Click to expand...

But even that is now considered to be of no use as to work the cecotroph needs to remain intact in it's mucous coating as it transits the stomach. If it is mushed up the stomach acid will destroy the 'good' gut bacteria it contains.
 
One of our rabbit savvy vets says the same - that a rabbits stomach destroys the probiotics before they can do any good

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2
 
Perhaps a small amount survive? After all, there will bemillions of bacteria in a dose. Or perhaps an unhealthy gut is not as acidic.

They do seem to help.
 
When Finley was on probiotics the vet gave omeprazole to help neutralize the acid as she wasn't convinced they helped much either
 
Jack's-Jane said:
To be honest I have never found that to be the case :?
Click to expand...

I find that they help Barney keep his weight on (poorly and slow gut=does not absorb nutrients) - both Protexin Profibre and fibreplex help. The pellets are not high in fibre, are no higher in protein than normal pellets, and extra normal rabbit pellets instead does not help. His condition deteriorates if I run out. Anecdotal evidence suggests that he is not alone - many people use these pellets to help buns gain weight.

Now it could be the probiotics helping. But equally, if we follow your theory, it could be that Prebiotics are the ones responsible for the improvement, as Protexin probiotics tend to include Prebiotics. Also, like I said, is there a possibility that a slow/poorly gut may not be as acidic as normal ones, and so more bacteria survives?
 
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Jack's-Jane said:
But even that is now considered to be of no use as to work the cecotroph needs to remain intact in it's mucous coating as it transits the stomach. If it is mushed up the stomach acid will destroy the 'good' gut bacteria it contains.
Click to expand...

Oh really? I'll have to mention that at the vets when I go with Ellie then as it was only last year I was told that it could potentially make her stomach better and there I was mushing away Stephen's poops!
 
I think I remember reading a couple of studies where probiotics were given to rabbits, and from what I can recall, they seemed to show positive results. Whether that was from the active effects of the probiotics or something else, I'm not exactly sure. I think there may have been something mentioned that the positive results might have been from the probiotics making the gut environment more acidic and not necessarily from the bacterial action itself.
 
I've wondered before about how intact the caecotropes need to - watching bunnies they don't swallow them whole, they duck and chew! So whilst pureeing them might be going too far maybe a bit mushed up is okay.
 
Tamsin said:
I've wondered before about how intact the caecotropes need to - watching bunnies they don't swallow them whole, they duck and chew! So whilst pureeing them might be going too far maybe a bit mushed up is okay.
Click to expand...

They dont teeth chew them, they squash them in their palates. So I suspect that they pass down the oesophagus and into/through the stomach relatively intact. There is certainly evidence of intact ceocotrophs in the stomach of Rabbits during a PM
 
my vet says the same jane. that they actually haven't been proven to help. he never gives them but says it's upto the owner if they want to try them and see if they think they help. to be honest, i decided to try the pro-fibre and i do feel they helped bisc when he was very poorly, but he might have gotten better over time without them. i don't know, but he still has them now, although alot less than he used to.
 
I seem to remember Marie Kubiak saying the same thing on here, but I may well be misremembering, and it was a fair while ago.
 
SarahP said:
I seem to remember Marie Kubiak saying the same thing on here, but I may well be misremembering, and it was a fair while ago.
Click to expand...

Yep

marie_kubiak said:
It depends on the probiotic and the antibiotic. The more common oral bunny antibiotics (Baytril and Septrin) are used because they do little damage to most normal gut bacteria. The more modern probiotics specifically designed for rabbits contain some normal gut bacteria and high levels of saccharomyces, a yeast that is present in high levels in bunny guts. As yeast are fungi not bacteria they also survive most antibiotics.
The real question is whether probiotics can survive the incredibly acidic rabbit stomach as this is designed to kill any microbes coming in on food... In rabbits on certain medications (e.g. Zantac) stomach pH is increase and probiotics are more likely to be effective.
Marie
Click to expand...
 
I had always hoped that probiotics would help my bunnies when taking abx, but sadly I have to agree that it doesn't really seem to affect them. :(

I have used Zantac too, on Mimzy, and I don't think it helped him much. In fact he was on a round of it right before he got head tilt. I worried that perhaps it passed his metacam through his stomach too quickly or blocked his absorption of it (we were trying to help him deal with a higher dosage of metacam and feared it was hurting his tummy) and so he didn't seem to get the benefits he normally received from the anti-inflammatory action. So we gave it up.

Probiotics here are expensive stuff and the one formulated for birds/reptiles (my vets aren't versed in the rabbit specific ones) and the bunnies hate it. Nasty green paste that smells. What is the point in annoying them with it if it isn't going to help? :(
 
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