Hip Dysplasia and arthritis

dbowes · Jan 10, 2014

Hi,

Jessica has been diagnosed with hip Dysplasia and arthritis.

She has been sat hunched lately and noticed that her spine seemed curled slightly to the left. She seems to move ok but then would catch her feet when jumping into the cage to go to her litter tray (both my rabbits are free range). Upon her x-rays it is clear that her spine is fine but her hips and knees are arthritic (quite badly unfortunately). She is obviously just twisting her body to make herself more comfortable.

When she first showed symptoms it was consistent with a urine infection (due to change in toilet habbits, wetting herself etc) so she was on baytril and metacam for a week. She definitely improved and hasn't wet herself since. She has been off medication for a god few weeks now and maintained the improvement although still not quite herself.

The vet said the only course of action is to put her on metacam but as she is only 3 and a half so obviously there is long term side affects to consider. It's the lesser of 2 evils i guess. She is definitely not herself but to complicate matters she has an eye infection as well

. I'm hoping that could be the reason she is currently not quite right and less so the arthritis.

My plan is to put her on metacam for a couple of weeks or so (along with drops for her eye). Then compare how she is when she off the metacam. If there is a clear benefit when using it we'll keep her on it permanently but if possible i don't want to as I know the time will come (if not already) where she will need to be on it permanently.

Has anyone any advice on this, does this seem like a sensible plan? We are really worried.

Also are there any other things we could do to help her? Anyone any experience with this??

Thanks

P.S tonights job is some DIY so she has ramps etc to get in her litter tray comfortably etc.

Vegan_Bunny · Jan 10, 2014

Hi. I have a bun with arthritis. He has not has xrays, but it's obvious that his hips/lower spine hurts him. He is not any less active, but sits hunched up and refuses to lay down properly when it bothers him. I find that in the Summer he is perfectly ok...as soon as it gets cold and wet, he starts to suffer. He is an indoor rabbit, but obviously these things still affect him.

If she is struggling to hop up onto things, maybe cut into the litter tray so that she doesn't have to hop into it. It will be messier, but will make things easier for her. Also provide lots of soft places to sit; cushions, pillows, towels, vet bets etc. My room is covered in folded towels and vet beds for Fiver to sit on. I would also recommend some heat, either a heat pad or a covered up hot water bottle (make sure only to fill it half way with warm, not hot, water).

As well as all of this, I would probably not worry too much about long term metacam. Rabbits seem to deal well with it, and there are lots of bunnies on here on long term metacam. I would put her on metacam and increase the dose (with your vets advice) until she seems comfortable. Keep her on that for a few weeks, and then drop the dose gradually. You will be able to get a "base" dose where she feels comfortable. Fiver was on 0.5mls twice a day, he is now on 0.3mls and is quite comfortable, although I may increase it as he is not laying down (but is not showing signs of pain).

Fiver also gets some joint supplements, which I buy from here - http://www.viovet.co.uk/Oxbow_Natural_Science_Joint_Support_for_Small_Animals/c17362/

dbowes · Jan 10, 2014

Hi Vegan Bunny,

Thanks for your response - very helpful. I see that you're from Middlesbrough too, small world.

Interesting about the temperature. My flat often gets warm with it being a new build but often opt for a jumper rather than putting the heating on as i thought the rabbits would be more comfortable. Definitely worth trialling to see how she reacts.

It's good to know she may improve at times, I was resigned to never see her sprawl out again. She has been ever so slowly improving since symptoms started. That was why it was difficult to work out if we should go through with an x-ray with the risk of anesthetic. It's good to know what we are dealing with though.

Yeah I'm making modifications to their setup so she can get in and out ok. A bit of DIY is involved but essentially there will be a gradual ramp so she can walk in and out as i dont want to change the setup too much as it works quite well otherwise as we have it.

She has always been reluctant for soft things. They have their spots they like which have carpets bits or rugs but when i tried to add something softer she went nuts, wee'd on it and stopped going there. Both of them seem to prefer the hard floor. I'll have a think on that one and see what I can come up with.

Thanks that does put my mind at ease a bit. Seems sensible to find a balance with the metacam. Difficult to guage how comfortable they are though especially when she hides and loses trust in me when i have to give her medication. She still runs in the kitchen after me thinking she will get a carrot without too much difficulty as she knows if she sits there long enough ill give in and give her some.

I have read about the long term side affects of metacam. Are liver/kidney problems guaranteed eventually or is it possible that she never gets any side affects? I'd be curious to know how long other rabbits have been on metacam and if/when they have experienced side affects?

As for suppliments, you often read things about whether they actually work but certainly worth a try. I'll order some now

Thanks Again

Dan and Sarah

Vegan_Bunny · Jan 10, 2014

You live in Boro? :shock: Wow. There's not many people from Boro on here! A big HI from me and my bunnies!

I did the exact same thing that you did. I panicked and thought that would be the end of seeing binkies and flops etc.

I was so relieved to find that he responded so well to the pain relief. This time last year he was a very sad bunny and not like himself at all.

Now, he has been binkying about, getting up to mischief and is pretty much like his usual self.

I don't believe there has been much research done on the side-effects of long term metacam in bunnies, but there are many people on here with bunnies on long term metacam with little/no side effects. However, it IS known to damage the liver/kidneys (and I would think it would in a rabbit over a long period of time) but you have to think that this risk is better than the animal being in pain. Quality over quantity. I do know that tramadol has less effect on the kidney and liver, but I would personally not use that unless needed. I'm not expert with this, and hopefully somebody with more knowledge than me can come along and give you some advice.

My rabbits are exactly the same with regards to lying on hard surfaces. :roll: The way I got around this was by using towels, they seem to prefer sitting on towels than cushions or animal beds. I also put down loads of vet beds in places where they hop out of things and where they sit. Fiver suffers with sore hocks as a result of his arthritis, so soft flooring is essential to managing this. I find that if I give Fiver a choice, he would rather sit on the carpet (which is not good for hocks), than on the soft things. :roll: So, I don't give him much option. I got an off-cut of new, thick carpet and covered it in towels, this makes it easier on his joints as well as his hocks. It certainly seems to have made a difference to his pain and his hocks. Also make sure that she can't trip over things. Towels are good because they can be lad completely flat, but keep an eye on them. My buns love to dig and ruckle them up. :roll:

I heard good things about the supplements. Fiver is on a much lower dose of painkillers than he was last year, but whether this is because of the changes I have made, or because of the joint supplements...I don't know.
I must say, though, most rabbits enjoy metacam. They will hate baytril because it's beef flavour (yuck!) so perhaps she associating the metacam with the baytril and so she is refusing it. Could you try to give her the baytril on something yummy? I've heard that basil is pretty successful with getting meds into bunnies. This is much less stressful for you and for her. :thumb:

This is just how I manage MY bun. All rabbits are different, and these things may not work as well for your bun as they did for mine. Somebody else may well have some different advice for you, that would work better.

dauphine.tabby · Jan 11, 2014

VioVet Discount Code

dbowes said:
Hi Vegan Bunny,

Thanks for your response - very helpful. I see that you're from Middlesbrough too, small world.

Interesting about the temperature. My flat often gets warm with it being a new build but often opt for a jumper rather than putting the heating on as i thought the rabbits would be more comfortable. Definitely worth trialling to see how she reacts.

It's good to know she may improve at times, I was resigned to never see her sprawl out again. She has been ever so slowly improving since symptoms started. That was why it was difficult to work out if we should go through with an x-ray with the risk of anesthetic. It's good to know what we are dealing with though.

Yeah I'm making modifications to their setup so she can get in and out ok. A bit of DIY is involved but essentially there will be a gradual ramp so she can walk in and out as i dont want to change the setup too much as it works quite well otherwise as we have it.

She has always been reluctant for soft things. They have their spots they like which have carpets bits or rugs but when i tried to add something softer she went nuts, wee'd on it and stopped going there. Both of them seem to prefer the hard floor. I'll have a think on that one and see what I can come up with.

Thanks that does put my mind at ease a bit. Seems sensible to find a balance with the metacam. Difficult to guage how comfortable they are though especially when she hides and loses trust in me when i have to give her medication. She still runs in the kitchen after me thinking she will get a carrot without too much difficulty as she knows if she sits there long enough ill give in and give her some.

I have read about the long term side affects of metacam. Are liver/kidney problems guaranteed eventually or is it possible that she never gets any side affects? I'd be curious to know how long other rabbits have been on metacam and if/when they have experienced side affects?

As for suppliments, you often read things about whether they actually work but certainly worth a try. I'll order some now

Thanks Again

Dan and Sarah

I hope I'm not too late, but if you're making your first order with VioVet you can get £3 off if you spend at least £15! The code is: VRCFU43NJ. Hope this is of use to you! :thumb:

dbowes · Jan 12, 2014

Vegan_Bunny said:
You live in Boro? :shock: Wow. There's not many people from Boro on here! A big HI from me and my bunnies!

I did the exact same thing that you did. I panicked and thought that would be the end of seeing binkies and flops etc. I was so relieved to find that he responded so well to the pain relief. This time last year he was a very sad bunny and not like himself at all. Now, he has been binkying about, getting up to mischief and is pretty much like his usual self.

I don't believe there has been much research done on the side-effects of long term metacam in bunnies, but there are many people on here with bunnies on long term metacam with little/no side effects. However, it IS known to damage the liver/kidneys (and I would think it would in a rabbit over a long period of time) but you have to think that this risk is better than the animal being in pain. Quality over quantity. I do know that tramadol has less effect on the kidney and liver, but I would personally not use that unless needed. I'm not expert with this, and hopefully somebody with more knowledge than me can come along and give you some advice.

My rabbits are exactly the same with regards to lying on hard surfaces. :roll: The way I got around this was by using towels, they seem to prefer sitting on towels than cushions or animal beds. I also put down loads of vet beds in places where they hop out of things and where they sit. Fiver suffers with sore hocks as a result of his arthritis, so soft flooring is essential to managing this. I find that if I give Fiver a choice, he would rather sit on the carpet (which is not good for hocks), than on the soft things. :roll: So, I don't give him much option. I got an off-cut of new, thick carpet and covered it in towels, this makes it easier on his joints as well as his hocks. It certainly seems to have made a difference to his pain and his hocks. Also make sure that she can't trip over things. Towels are good because they can be lad completely flat, but keep an eye on them. My buns love to dig and ruckle them up. :roll:

I heard good things about the supplements. Fiver is on a much lower dose of painkillers than he was last year, but whether this is because of the changes I have made, or because of the joint supplements...I don't know.
I must say, though, most rabbits enjoy metacam. They will hate baytril because it's beef flavour (yuck!) so perhaps she associating the metacam with the baytril and so she is refusing it. Could you try to give her the baytril on something yummy? I've heard that basil is pretty successful with getting meds into bunnies. This is much less stressful for you and for her. :thumb:

This is just how I manage MY bun. All rabbits are different, and these things may not work as well for your bun as they did for mine. Somebody else may well have some different advice for you, that would work better.

Ha yep the mighty Boro :wave:

My buns have a hideaway box which I built for them which is lined with carpet. I've added some carpet underlay to make it more "bouncy" but adding towels too. Makes sense and easier to clean :thumb: Going to look at yoga/gym mats as I think they like the firmness/flatness of the floor due to their instincts to escape predators. A yoga mat is firm yet spongy enough to take the impact away of a hard floor. Makes sense to me anyway so I'll try that.

I've managed to cut a couple or doorways into the cage so she can walk in. They have a cat litter tray with a grate/grid over the top which works really well, no mess at all. Don't want to change that so I've just finished making a gradual ramp so she can pretty much just walk in. Even without the ramp she seems more comfortable with not having to jump into the cage. No mishaps at all since so looking good on that front. Touch wood

She took a turn for the worse for a day or so after she came home and was off her food despite being on metacam but I suspect this was the affects of the anaesthetic as she seems back to normal now. In fact she is just overdue her next dose and is fine so looking good for now.

Thanks feel better about the long term metacam. She is on 1ml once daily. I've no idea whether that is a lot or not so will ask the vet. Obviously we want to find the minimum dosage where she is comfortable.

As for supplements I've ordered some, makes sense to attack it from all angles.

Jasper seems off his food now so back to the vets tomorrow - nothing going right at the moment! Probably wants some attention

Thanks again.

dbowes · Jan 12, 2014

dauphine.tabby said:
I hope I'm not too late, but if you're making your first order with VioVet you can get £3 off if you spend at least £15! The code is: VRCFU43NJ. Hope this is of use to you! :thumb:

Dauphin.Tabby

Thanks for your post. Unfortunately I've already ordered some, nevermind. Hopefully others will see your post and take advantage :thumb:

Vegan_Bunny · Jan 12, 2014

dbowes said:
Ha yep the mighty Boro :wave:

My buns have a hideaway box which I built for them which is lined with carpet. I've added some carpet underlay to make it more "bouncy" but adding towels too. Makes sense and easier to clean :thumb: Going to look at yoga/gym mats as I think they like the firmness/flatness of the floor due to their instincts to escape predators. A yoga mat is firm yet spongy enough to take the impact away of a hard floor. Makes sense to me anyway so I'll try that.

I've managed to cut a couple or doorways into the cage so she can walk in. They have a cat litter tray with a grate/grid over the top which works really well, no mess at all. Don't want to change that so I've just finished making a gradual ramp so she can pretty much just walk in. Even without the ramp she seems more comfortable with not having to jump into the cage. No mishaps at all since so looking good on that front. Touch wood

She took a turn for the worse for a day or so after she came home and was off her food despite being on metacam but I suspect this was the affects of the anaesthetic as she seems back to normal now. In fact she is just overdue her next dose and is fine so looking good for now.

Thanks feel better about the long term metacam. She is on 1ml once daily. I've no idea whether that is a lot or not so will ask the vet. Obviously we want to find the minimum dosage where she is comfortable.

As for supplements I've ordered some, makes sense to attack it from all angles.

Jasper seems off his food now so back to the vets tomorrow - nothing going right at the moment! Probably wants some attention

Thanks again.

I do hope Jasper is ok. Is he eating anything at all?

1ml once daily is a highish dose. Only thing I would suggest is maybe splitting the dose, so she gets 0.5ml on a morning and 0.5ml on an evening. Metacam lasts 12 hours, so she is going for 12 hours without any kind of pain relief. x

dbowes · Jan 12, 2014

Vegan_Bunny said:
I do hope Jasper is ok. Is he eating anything at all?

1ml once daily is a highish dose. Only thing I would suggest is maybe splitting the dose, so she gets 0.5ml on a morning and 0.5ml on an evening. Metacam lasts 12 hours, so she is going for 12 hours without any kind of pain relief. x

Yeah he has eaten plenty of hay and rocket and some raspberries but wont eat his pellets or carrot (trying everything to get him to eat). Its strange as normally hay is the first thing he'll stop eating. I've started another thread for Jaspy. This is the first time I've had to deal with both of them having problems at the same time. The vet will be getting sick of me!

I'll ask her about dosage but does it depend on the strength? This is 0.5mg per ml metacam, I think you can get 1.5mg per ml too. I guess you would need 3 times the amount of the less concentrated stuff. I'm a bit confused by it to be honest.

I get what you are saying about splitting the dose. I suggested it to the vet on another occasion and her response was that a person wouldn't take 1 paracetemol then take another 2 hours later, you would take 2 (every 4 hours) to get the full benefit. That makes sense to me but your point about it last only 12 hours does too. Hmmm I'm confused. Perhaps the dose is high but needs to be and half isn't enough to get the right effect but the same dose again would be too much in 1 day so the lesser of 2 evils is to just have the one big dose. I don't know, clutching at straws really.

Hope I can get an appointment tomorrow for Jasper then I can discuss it with her.

Santa · Jan 12, 2014

What size is your bunny and is it dog or cat metacam that you have? That will give us more information about whether 1ml daily is a high dose or not. I agree with the others about twice a day being better because it lasts for closer to 12 hours than to 24, although it may be that your bun needs more than half the dose each time and possibly the whole dose twice a day. It's not the same as taking 1 every 2 hours instead of 2 every 4...if the best time interval is 4 hours then you take the number of paracetamol needed for that period of time, and I would argue bunnies are the same. I've heard one of the country's top bunny vets talk about using pain relief twice a day for bunnies as a single dose often doesn't last right through, so it's definitely common practice.

One other thing to consider may be something like acupuncture. It's less commonly practiced in rabbits than cats but it can be done. One of my cats has acupuncture for arthritis and after 3 years of metacam, within 4 months off starting acupuncture she was off it. I've had to change vet for it recently due to long term sickness of the other vet and this one uses a different technique (this one uses more traditional but previous vet did trigger point which feels for knots in muscles and needles into those) which is still ok but doesn't seem to be working as well, but she said she's done it on bunnies and they've been good patients. She said because they are prey animals they tend to sit still for the session. So it might be worth considering.

Good luck x x

dbowes · Jan 12, 2014

Santa said:
What size is your bunny and is it dog or cat metacam that you have? That will give us more information about whether 1ml daily is a high dose or not. I agree with the others about twice a day being better because it lasts for closer to 12 hours than to 24, although it may be that your bun needs more than half the dose each time and possibly the whole dose twice a day. It's not the same as taking 1 every 2 hours instead of 2 every 4...if the best time interval is 4 hours then you take the number of paracetamol needed for that period of time, and I would argue bunnies are the same. I've heard one of the country's top bunny vets talk about using pain relief twice a day for bunnies as a single dose often doesn't last right through, so it's definitely common practice.

One other thing to consider may be something like acupuncture. It's less commonly practiced in rabbits than cats but it can be done. One of my cats has acupuncture for arthritis and after 3 years of metacam, within 4 months off starting acupuncture she was off it. I've had to change vet for it recently due to long term sickness of the other vet and this one uses a different technique (this one uses more traditional but previous vet did trigger point which feels for knots in muscles and needles into those) which is still ok but doesn't seem to be working as well, but she said she's done it on bunnies and they've been good patients. She said because they are prey animals they tend to sit still for the session. So it might be worth considering.

Good luck x x

Its the cat metacam, 0.5mg per ml. The vet was perhaps talking in layermans terms to me and that was for a different occasion with the paracetemol example. In fact maybe it wasn't the metacam she was referring to. The label says give to "10" daily. 10 being the measure on the syringe that comes with the metacam. i.e for a 10kg cat. I said 1ml as I compared to a regular ml syringe with normal measurement on (which is the same size).

We are still getting used to her condition and modifying her setup so things are easier for her (ramps, bedding etc). Once we see how she is after the changes we can look into other things. Will certainly investigate acupuncture, its a case finding a place that does it. Harcourt browns perhaps? An hour away but an option.

thanks

Bunny Buddy · Jan 16, 2014

dbowes said:
Its the cat metacam, 0.5mg per ml. The vet was perhaps talking in layermans terms to me and that was for a different occasion with the paracetemol example. In fact maybe it wasn't the metacam she was referring to. The label says give to "10" daily. 10 being the measure on the syringe that comes with the metacam. i.e for a 10kg cat. I said 1ml as I compared to a regular ml syringe with normal measurement on (which is the same size).

We are still getting used to her condition and modifying her setup so things are easier for her (ramps, bedding etc). Once we see how she is after the changes we can look into other things. Will certainly investigate acupuncture, its a case finding a place that does it. Harcourt browns perhaps? An hour away but an option.thanks

Harcourt-Brown's definitely don't do acupuncture (I've asked regarding my rabbit with a collapsed vertebra). They did however tell me of a vet who has locumed for them (Chris) who does acupuncture, I can't remember where he has his practice but was in North Yorkshire, I think Beadale or round that area but it was definitely nearer to yourself than Harrogate.

Hip Dysplasia and arthritis

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