bisc's tummy issue diary u/d p29

bisc has always had a sensitive tummy. over the years, more and more food has had to be ruled out. he's always been prone to a messy bum. it's his caecs that are the problem. they are not the right consistency and are stuck to the floor, his underneath, and they smell really bad. it seems to happen very randomly.

i don't know for sure, but losing matt i think has caused more stress and made his tummy even worse, even though he seems really bright, and then he suddenly seem uncomfortable again.

he had tests done in september. xrays ruled out arthritis, and blood tests ruled out problems with any organs. nothing was wrong. i was expecting him to have spurs but he didn't.

he is on long term metacam and probiotics. i feel like he might even be becoming sensitive to the probiotics aswell as other things. lately parsely has been stopped, he can't have dandelion anymore. he was fine with coneflower but ginko plus set him off.

he doesn't like being unclean and his underneath is quite filthy. i have trimmed off the main bits but there is some right on his bum and i am scared to touch that. he pulls at it himself which must hurt, and he has pulled out some fur where he was soiled.

it seems like his gut is totally unbalanced but i don't know what to do. i read an article about intermittent soft caecs and it sounds very like bisc, except he isn't overweight, he has had the usual things ruled out, and all we can think is maybe he has spurs out of sight (he usually does but always has some in sight aswell, which he doesn't have), or stress from losing matt. (four months ago)

the article i read states alot of ingredients that should be avoided, and the probiotics he has have alot of these. could he become sensitive to even those over time? :?

he has unlimited hay - timothy and rye, and meadow hay.
he only has coriander, basil and thyme now as fresh food. he can't tolerate anything else and lots has been removed over the years.
he has his profibre pellets which seemed to be so great for him, but now i don't know if these could be the culprit.
he has dried herbs sometimes but again, random ones he used to have now set his tummy off.
even grass he chose to stop eating as much of because that set him off, even when introduced very slowly each year.
he has fresh water of course.

can anyone advise what we should do please? we thought maybe go back to a hay only diet for now? stop everything else? then re-introduce everything to see if it is anything usual he has become sensitive to.

he seems fine in himself most of the time, but i do think pulling at his underneath is making him sore and unhappy at times. i do think that maybe he misses matt and a new friend could be what he needs, but we are worried that if we put him through bonding when he is already having some issues, that that may make things worse, and it could even be that it isn't even the issue.

sorry for the long post but i'm worried about him. i'm going to take him to he vets again to check his teeth and see what they say, but usually when he needs a dental he loses some weight, and that hasn't happened. just wondered what anyones thoughts were?

thank you. x

Sorry he's mucky. It's such a pain and a worry. At least with Grim I know it's because he's on a pellet only diet. I found echinacea affected Grim and certain pellets. The hay only diet might work but will it affect his weight if his teeth are bad? If not it seems worth a try.

I would get his teeth checked again but in the meantime I'd go back to a hay only diet. I'd stop the probiotic (which one do you use ??)

I'd also give him either boiled water (cooled) or bottled water rather than water straight from the tap. I have known of a Rabbit who I feel certain was sensitive to tap water and I assume that is to do with the purification process :? I really dont know, but a few days after putting him onto bottled water his cecal problem resolved :?

I would try to give Bisc a bum bath. Soaking the caked on poo in warm water will soften it an enable you to remove it without having to use scissors. I would only use water, no shampoos or anything. He will need thorough drying off too which can take a long time.

Bramble leaves can be useful for gut issues. I dont know how Bisc is with these ?

Also, why is he on Metacam ?

Jenova said:

Sorry he's mucky. It's such a pain and a worry. At least with Grim I know it's because he's on a pellet only diet. I found echinacea affected Grim and certain pellets. The hay only diet might work but will it affect his weight if his teeth are bad? If not it seems worth a try.

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thanks. i am starting to get worried now. i have been for a while now, but he seems to pick up again, then i relax, and then it happens again. x

Jack's-Jane said:

I would get his teeth checked again but in the meantime I'd go back to a hay only diet. I'd stop the probiotic (which one do you use ??)

I'd also give him either boiled water (cooled) or bottled water rather than water straight from the tap. I have known of a Rabbit who I feel certain was sensitive to tap water and I assume that is to do with the purification process :? I really dont know, but a few days after putting him onto bottled water his cecal problem resolved :?

I would try to give Bisc a bum bath. Soaking the caked on poo in warm water will soften it an enable you to remove it without having to use scissors. I would only use water, no shampoos or anything. He will need thorough drying off too which can take a long time.

Bramble leaves can be useful for gut issues. I dont know how Bisc is with these ?

Also, why is he on Metacam ?

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the probiotic is the protexin profibre one and a few years back when he was very poorly, it really helped get him back to a stable weight and over the years it has cut down his messy bum episodes and helped with the sensitivity. maybe now they are too rich for him?

i will try the cooled boiled water from today and see if that helps.

i used a trimmer to remove some poop and he was really good with it. i do think i need to try soaking it for him. i used to do this in the past but then read that leaving the area wet can make it prone to infection so i got worried about that because he has some very thin fur in places and you can see where he has pulled at it really hard. he is usually good with removing it himself though after i soften it so hopefully that will help. i'll do that later and see what i can soften for him. checking him yesterday, he has removed alot more by himself from the other day so he must beable to reach it, but i think it must be quite painful for him.

i don't think he has ever had bramble leaves. i can't remember but i can certainly get some for him to try.

he is on long term metacam for snuffles. he has scar tissue damage in his nose and his nostrils close more than they should when he is asleep so it's more as an anti-inflammatory to keep his nose as clear as possible. his snuffles is very well managed and stable so he doesn't need nebulising very often anymore. do you think the metacam could be causing a problem? he has been on it a very long time now.

i will be taking him back to the vets again to check his teeth again. if they are ruled out again, then it has to be something with his tummy issues, or from losing matt and the stress maybe. i know the vet did say they cope better with short term stress then long term stress.

other than these, i just don't know what else it could be.

thanks for your reply x

biscandmatt1 said:

thanks. i am starting to get worried now. i have been for a while now, but he seems to pick up again, then i relax, and then it happens again. x



the probiotic is the protexin profibre one and a few years back when he was very poorly, it really helped get him back to a stable weight and over the years it has cut down his messy bum episodes and helped with the sensitivity. maybe now they are too rich for him?

i will try the cooled boiled water from today and see if that helps.

i used a trimmer to remove some poop and he was really good with it. i do think i need to try soaking it for him. i used to do this in the past but then read that leaving the area wet can make it prone to infection so i got worried about that because he has some very thin fur in places and you can see where he has pulled at it really hard. he is usually good with removing it himself though after i soften it so hopefully that will help. i'll do that later and see what i can soften for him. checking him yesterday, he has removed alot more by himself from the other day so he must beable to reach it, but i think it must be quite painful for him.

i don't think he has ever had bramble leaves. i can't remember but i can certainly get some for him to try.

he is on long term metacam for snuffles. he has scar tissue damage in his nose and his nostrils close more than they should when he is asleep so it's more as an anti-inflammatory to keep his nose as clear as possible. his snuffles is very well managed and stable so he doesn't need nebulising very often anymore. do you think the metacam could be causing a problem? he has been on it a very long time now.

i will be taking him back to the vets again to check his teeth again. if they are ruled out again, then it has to be something with his tummy issues, or from losing matt and the stress maybe. i know the vet did say they cope better with short term stress then long term stress.

other than these, i just don't know what else it could be.

thanks for your reply x

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I would speak with the Vet about stopping the Metacam, for a while anyway. I think trying to eliminate as many 'chemicals' as possible may be a good idea. But obviously if your Vet still feels he needs daily Metacam then that will have to stay.

What dose is he on ?

Is he maintaining his weight ?

Also, how much profibre pellets does he have each day ?

Jack's-Jane said:

I would speak with the Vet about stopping the Metacam, for a while anyway. I think trying to eliminate as many 'chemicals' as possible may be a good idea. But obviously if your Vet still feels he needs daily Metacam then that will have to stay.

What dose is he on ?

Is he maintaining his weight ?

Also, how much profibre pellets does he have each day ?

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he's on 0.5ml twice a day. that seemed to be the least he could be on, but this may have changed now. when he has a tummy episode where he has metaclopramide aswell, he has more metacam.

luckily he stays around the same weight, except when he needs a dental or his tummy is upset, then he loses some. i am keeping a close eye on his weight and at the moment he is maintaining.

he has quite a few of the pellets to be honest. at least one scoop a day. possibly too many, although i have reduced them lately.

it's just strange because he will be fine and happy, and then randomly he has his 'look' and i know straight away that something isn't right with him. then he will randomly perk up again. :? he's bright now and staring at me but when i got up he was lying down with that 'look'. xmas eve he was ecstatic and doing sprints and binkies, then the next day he wasn't looking happy. it's so random.

better get sorted with the vets yet again then. i know it is possible he needs company again but i have been wanting to get his health sorted first and then decide. the last thing i want is to add more stress if he isn't quite right anyway. x

little update - so far so good with bisc. managed to get him cleaned up, and he did some aswell. he is eating soooo much hay. he has always been a good hay eater but now he's eating even more.

we have reduced his pro-fibre pellets to a teaspoon 2/3 times a day (literally 5/6 pellets each time) and have cut his veg in half just whilst his tum gets back on track.

have only given thyme for his tea since i posted so know it isn't that causing issues.

since doing this, no excess cecals left around at all. :thumb: he's much happier aswell. still on metacam and once his system is moving much better, then we will try the coriander and basil again and see. i don't think they are a problem but just to rule things out.

weight is stable and he doesn't seem like it is dental related. he's not like he usually is when he needs one.

i think the ginko plus herbs set him off.

he refused to drink cooled boiled water, but i've ordered another bowl so he can have tap and boiled to hopefully get him to try it.

so far so good anyway :thumb:

eta: will be gradually changing things to hopefully keep him stable. more hay, some hay cakes to try, and also gradually reduce the pellets and metacam to the minimum he can have. hopefully all these things will keep him from getting a dodgy tum.

Glad to hear things are going well so far

Jack's-Jane said:

Glad to hear things are going well so far

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thanks. i am going to get him checked over soon but i really don't think it is dental this time. i will just gradually try things with his diet and hopefully keep his tummy stable. really pleased so far. i think if i am honest, i have overfed him the pellets since matt passed. just because he loves them so much and i wanted him to be happy. but he's really bright and his poops are looking the best they have since matt. they used to be so big and golden, then went smaller and darker, so i wasn't doing him any favours. but now they're looking fantastic again. x

Mimzy seems to have a constant on again off again mucky bum. I usually have to have him shaved at the vet so the cecals fall away easier (he's got really nappy fur) and I think I may have to take him off pellets entirely now. Although greens seem to be affecting him more as he ages.
It took quite a long time from getting Fiver onto just a hay only diet so he's to where he doesn't have as much trouble with his bum. The only time we have an issue now is when the odd batch comes in that's not as high a quality. In fact with all my bunnies they'd be much better off to steer clear of anything but hay to eat, but with Mimzy's low water intake I have to keep some greens going. It will be nice when spring comes (if it's not late this year like last) and I can gather fresh hayseed for him from the garden. Not quite sure what kind of grass it is, probably timothy though, which was planted here by the former owners for their horses. It grows best over the septic tank/leach field.
I really hope Bisc will stabilize for you and feel better now. xxxx

MimzMum said:

Mimzy seems to have a constant on again off again mucky bum. I usually have to have him shaved at the vet so the cecals fall away easier (he's got really nappy fur) and I think I may have to take him off pellets entirely now. Although greens seem to be affecting him more as he ages.
It took quite a long time from getting Fiver onto just a hay only diet so he's to where he doesn't have as much trouble with his bum. The only time we have an issue now is when the odd batch comes in that's not as high a quality. In fact with all my bunnies they'd be much better off to steer clear of anything but hay to eat, but with Mimzy's low water intake I have to keep some greens going. It will be nice when spring comes (if it's not late this year like last) and I can gather fresh hayseed for him from the garden. Not quite sure what kind of grass it is, probably timothy though, which was planted here by the former owners for their horses. It grows best over the septic tank/leach field.
I really hope Bisc will stabilize for you and feel better now. xxxx

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i think it's looking like a hay only diet will be what bisc has to be on soon aswell. over time he gets more and more sensitive and has less things. he does drink a good amount of water though so i'm lucky in that sense. i can't imagine cutting out his probiotic pellets though. think he might be furious! :shock: :lol:

x

still good with bisc. no excess caecals still. he has now had coriander re-introduced and that is fine aswell. eating so much hay, a bit huffy about less probiotic pellets ... but fine with hay, thyme and coriander. still refusing to drink from his new bowl, so he has the old one and the new one now, but still uses the old one. he is a creature of habit! :lol:

will stick with thyme and coriander a bit longer then try the basil back again.

he must be feeling better though because now he's clean again and his tum is moving better. he was doing so many sprints and binkies last night.

Glad to see such a good update.

tulsi said:

Glad to see such a good update.

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thank you. i won't be trying the ginko plus again that's for sure. :roll: that was another thing he used to be fine with but isn't now. i'm annoyed at myself because i didn't even remember about the green oat in it, and he became very sensitive to the green oat hay a long time ago, so i should never have given it :roll:

a very happy bisc here still won't drink from his new bowl though :shock: pesky wabbit! :lol:

Pleased things are getting better for you. I gave Doughnut an apple stick, the first time in ages and there were soft mixed poops everywhere the following morning and noises and throat rubbing. Also tried a different hay, more green with rose petals and that started her off again too.

She is just on Russell Rabbit muesli and wilkinsons timothy hay again. Even tried rabbit royale muesli but again no good. She does better on muesli and is no good on pellets, even though I tried to get her a really healthy diet, but the specialist put her on it and said it's what works for her. Maybe you could try a bit of muesli if he starts losing weight as some buns digestions seems to tolerate it better than pellets. I have no idea why. For me it's just trial and error as I do try to introduce other things but it just isn't happening. Was thinking of trying her on tiny bits of dill again since she loves it.

cpayne said:

Pleased things are getting better for you. I gave Doughnut an apple stick, the first time in ages and there were soft mixed poops everywhere the following morning and noises and throat rubbing. Also tried a different hay, more green with rose petals and that started her off again too.

She is just on Russell Rabbit muesli and wilkinsons timothy hay again. Even tried rabbit royale muesli but again no good. She does better on muesli and is no good on pellets, even though I tried to get her a really healthy diet, but the specialist put her on it and said it's what works for her. Maybe you could try a bit of muesli if he starts losing weight as some buns digestions seems to tolerate it better than pellets. I have no idea why. For me it's just trial and error as I do try to introduce other things but it just isn't happening. Was thinking of trying her on tiny bits of dill again since she loves it.

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i'm the same - i feel bad that he doesn't have much variety so every so often i try something again and it never seems to work out. if anything, more and more things have been ruled out over time. he seems ok with what he has though, and is keeping a stable weight, so hopefully if i stick to the few things he can have then he will be ok.

love to doughnut

right, bisc seemed like he had a bit of tummy ache yesterday morning, but then seemed to be ok again, but not 100%. last night he had some gas. we're not really sure why. he was in a good mood and then the other day, i was asleep and o/h had to go out to top up, so bisc was alone when he would normally be with o/h, although i was asleep on the settee so still in the same room. he seemed a bit quiet after that.

he also had coriander and thyme together and it could be that he can't manage two different fresh foods at once. before this he was having one a day, and has been fine.

other than that, we're not sure. so we are going back to one fresh food a day again and see what happens.

right, first dodgy cecals since i made this thread. seems it is a stress thing, as yesterday he thought we were all about to go out and leave him alone and he panicked, and last night he did one dodgy one. been fine since though but it does seem to point to it being more of a stress thing. he's bright again today though and it isn't all stuck to him, so hoping it's a one off.

just wanted to add to this thread. we discovered that bisc couldn't handle the basil which was clear when we re-introduced it back again. so he no longer has that now.

he seems better when he has one fresh food a day, instead of mixed. so we've been doing that, although we are now thinking that sometimes he eats his herbs too quickly which won't help, so we're going to try half in the morning and half in the evening instead to see if this helps. also, after that we might try one variety in the morning and a different one in the evening.

he still won't try cooled boiled water :shock: i don't know why but think tap water is ok.

i also tried reducing his metacam and he doesn't seem to beable to be on under 0.5ml twice a day. i'm not sure why but this has been the case in the past aswell. :?

he also had a dodgy tum and we didn't know why and that turned out to be his heel that i missed before it cracked again. so i am checking that even more regularly now aswell.

also noticed reading my other threads that i say bisc's tum clears up after a day of metaclopramide. and i realised that i used to give the full course and now because his tum doesn't seem as bad, i stop the med when he is ok again. i think i definitely should be carrying it on for a while after he seems back to normal. his usual course is 1ml 3x a day for five days. now i do a day or two and stop. so i'm going to try three days as he is on them again at the moment. he had the doses yesterday and this morning already seems much better, so this time i will carry on with it for today and tomorrow and that should be better.

sorry for the essay! just like to update for my own records! :thumb:

eta: also waiting for galens garden to get some bramble leaves in so we can try those. and i want to get him some willow as he used to eat alot of that. does anyone know if he can have that aswell as metacam? :wave:

eta: also don't think the pro-fibre is causing the issue. jenova mentioned on another thread about grim's eating slowing down when he is snuffly and we think this is an issue with bisc aswell. this time of year he is more snuffly for him. so that could mean he eats less hay and then that is all it takes for his tum to slow down and for him to get stressed. he is actually sneezing a bit at the moment and snoring more.

also waiting on some new weighing scales as the others have gone weird. looks like water has got in the screen :? anyway, so they should come soon and i'll be back weighing him. he's been keeping stable but used to be around 2.3kg. when matt passed, he went from 2.33kg to 2.25kg.