Dental bunny, urine soaked

Hi All,
I have a rather confusing problem with Fiva, my 7 year old dwarf lop bunny. He's now a dental bunny (last vet checked 3 weeks ago) who became urine soaked a week after a dental. Today is day 25 of panacur just as a precaution as vet is convinced its not EC and x-rays showed no sign of arthritis. He's eating and drinking well and very lively. The problem is that the urine dried up for a week but since has started alternating wet/dry days, today being a wet day. We are now totally confused as to what could be the cause. He has no problem with movement or cleaning himself. Hoping someone has experience of this. x

Loftyfiva said:

Hi All,
I have a rather confusing problem with Fiva, my 7 year old dwarf lop bunny. He's now a dental bunny (last vet checked 3 weeks ago) who became urine soaked a week after a dental. Today is day 25 of panacur just as a precaution as vet is convinced its not EC and x-rays showed no sign of arthritis. He's eating and drinking well and very lively. The problem is that the urine dried up for a week but since has started alternating wet/dry days, today being a wet day. We are now totally confused as to what could be the cause. He has no problem with movement or cleaning himself. Hoping someone has experience of this. x

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Just wonder whether you might be better to amend your title so people who can help will see what it is about? Perhaps something like 'Dental bunny - urine soaked'

Thanks Babsie x

Has the vet checked for a bladder infection, or just treated for it just in case?

My Barney isn't a proper dental bun, lhe gets spurs but only small ones so they don't need sorting often, and occasionally gets a incontinent where he's not doing massive puddles or anything, but just sort of leaks.... Covering himself in wee. We've never found the cause but the first time a combination of antibiotics and propalin (strengthens bladder muscles) sorted it and the second time it cleared up after a week seemingly by itself. Both times were associated with weightloss and an unhealthy gut.

I'm not sure whether they are linked or not but dental bunnies often have a low fibre diet leading to a slow gut, so I thought id mention it. Regardless, antibiotics would be a good place to start, and maybe talk to your vet about propalin?

Thanks Nessar for your reply. We're trying (and willing to try) anything that will help him. It just seems strange that he's totally dry one day and wet the next. He is suffering with a slow gut and passing some mucus which vet says is going to be his problem as he can't eat much hay. He lost loads of weight extremely quickly when the dental problems started a month ago-went down to 2.15kgs but is now up to 2.45kgs. I've started him very slowly on ss pellets along with his normal pellets to try and add some fibre to his diet-he's up to 11/12 a day now which looks like his limit as poos have become softer but the mucus and tummy rumblings continue. They don't however seem to be bothering him, he still lives to eat If we could just stop the urine problems then he wouldn't have to put up with me corn flouring him. Thanks again xx

Has your Vet run any blood tests ?

Hi Jacks-Jane,
Yes he has and everything is normal. Fiivas currently 'helping' me type this! So hope it reads ok lol x

Vets tomorrow afternoon. Hope we can get to the bottom of this. On the plus side his weight is much better.

Doughnut used to be wet all the time and ended up really heavily stained. I discovered she was ill because she was getting constipated. She was given propalin to strengthen her uretha muscle but she wasn't dry until she was on metaclopramide. I know it's not the same as Doughnut but I just wondered if the urine is because your bunny isn't eating enough fibre to get it's gut going so is straining down and is weeing itself like she was. Just a thought.

Hope you get it sorted.

cpayne said:

Doughnut used to be wet all the time and ended up really heavily stained. I discovered she was ill because she was getting constipated. She was given propalin to strengthen her uretha muscle but she wasn't dry until she was on metaclopramide. I know it's not the same as Doughnut but I just wondered if the urine is because your bunny isn't eating enough fibre to get it's gut going so is straining down and is weeing itself like she was. Just a thought.

Hope you get it sorted.

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That's really interesting, because it may just be a coincidence, but the second time Barney was weeing himself (the first was solved with abx and propalin, he wasn't on metaclopramide at the time as gut problems were undiagnosed) I thought it sort of sorted itself but come to think of it I did raise his metaclopramide dose again. Barney has a slow gut too, so you may be on to something there, that maybe constipation/slow gut can indirectly cause incontinence through straining?

I think it makes sense as I know if I am constipated (thankfully not often) but if you are pushing down you do normally urinate! Sorry everyone for that bit of info.

Doughnut was on propalin before I noticed that her noises and throat rubbing was because she hadn't gone to the toilet for so long. The propalin didn't really help her that much but as soon as I saw Mark and said about her being constipated and we worked out it was her digestion, once he started her on the metaclop she was instantly dry and has been ever since.

Thanks cpayne and nessar, looking at how Fiva has been over the last few weeks, you may well be right. His gut rumbles pretty loudly and he's passing mucus. Knowing that his intske of hay has recently massively decreased then your thoughts may well be spot on. I'll talk it over with the vet later.
Really grateful for your help, Karen xxxxx

It would be worth discussing pain relief and a gut stimulant with the vet if he is like that, would also be useful to get them to check to see if he is gassy.

Slow guts and gas can be very painful for them, meaning they eat even less. It can also make them not feel hungry. It's a vicious cycle so he needs help breaking out of it to get more fibre in his diet.

Can't remember if I've mentioned this already, but Supreme do foods that are 30%+ fibre and are designed to have a longer feeding time than normal pellets. I use Fibafirst and the VetCare Digestive ones. The VetCare range and fibafirst are the same 'monoforage' format and have the same main benefits. They are lighter as they are full of hay, so the feeding portion is larger in size than smaller heavier pellets, so whilst they would help with gut problems and help encourage hay eating that way, he would have to eat more of them as they are less nutritionally dense than normal pellets. And a larger quantity of pellets eaten means slightly less hay so possibly less tooth wear. So it might be worth discussing with the vet and seeing whether they may be a solution for him.

You can buy Fibafirst in p@h or pampurred pets but the VetCare range has to be bought by your vet or online.

http://www.supremepetfoods.com/fiba-first-2/
http://www.supremepetfoods.com/2012/06/new-concept-fibafirst-gets-rave-reviews/

http://www.supremepetfoodsus.com/browse-by/supreme-vetcare-plus-and-recovery-plus/

Loftyfiva said:

Thanks cpayne and nessar, looking at how Fiva has been over the last few weeks, you may well be right. His gut rumbles pretty loudly and he's passing mucus. Knowing that his intske of hay has recently massively decreased then your thoughts may well be spot on. I'll talk it over with the vet later.
Really grateful for your help, Karen xxxxx

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Let us know how you get on.

Hi nessar,

Believe me he certainly has no problem with his appetite. Fiva lives to eat and nothing changes that lol.
His real problems stem from the fact that he has lost his lower molars on the left side and only has 2 on the right so grinding food is really difficult for him. He's now up to fourteen ss pellets a day as they are 25% fibre and would eat the pack if I'd let him. He can manage little bits of parsley if I hand feed him but anything else, including grated carrot/apple/courgette he chokes on. Its such a shame as he has always loved greens.

I have to bring him in twice a day to corn flour and feed him separately to the others as I don't want them having so many pellets or the ss ones as I couldn't afford that and when he's in if he's not eating then he's trying to wind up one of our dogs who he knows is locked in her cage and can't get to him so believe me he is very active lol.

Nessar and cpayne,

I'll see what the vet can suggest and speak to him about your suggestions as perhaps by pooling all our theories we can sort it for him.
Thanks again and I'll let you know what happens xx

Back from vets and he's had the first dose of propalin. Vet gave him a thorough check up and when he touched his bladder area he peed. Vet thinks it may be due to gut problems but his gut sounded ok when vet listened with a stethoscope so he'd rather not start metoclopramide yet due to the side effects. We're going to try to increase his grass intake as veg is so limited due to his dental problems but this isn't going to be easy as he's still a little on the lean side so needs the pellets for weight gain. Thanks for all the advice and I'll keep you updated xxx

Loftyfiva said:

Back from vets and he's had the first dose of propalin. Vet gave him a thorough check up and when he touched his bladder area he peed. Vet thinks it may be due to gut problems but his gut sounded ok when vet listened with a stethoscope so he'd rather not start metoclopramide yet due to the side effects. We're going to try to increase his grass intake as veg is so limited due to his dental problems but this isn't going to be easy as he's still a little on the lean side so needs the pellets for weight gain. Thanks for all the advice and I'll keep you updated xxx

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There aren't any side effects with metoclop. Doughnut is under a brilliant specialist and she has been on it for 3 months now. I saw him yesterday as she is going to probably be on it long term and he said he hadn't found any side effects on rabbits who have been on it long term and it is fine for them to be on it indefinitely.

See if the propalin helps. Not sure if it helped Doughnut as she had been ill for nearly a year and like I said she was still wet on it but it may have strengthened her muscle in the uretha which was probably weakened by all of her straining. If he touched her bladder and she peed then it sounds like she can't retain it so hopefully the propalin is all that she needs.

Please don't be put off by giving her metoclop if the propalin doesn't work.

My specialist recommended Doughnut was on alfalfa hay to put on weight, she went down to 1kg and is now 1.2kg and a lot healthier. Maybe you could ask your vet about that. I used to give her two handfuls a day and she loved it and also good for the teeth, better than pellets.

xx

I'll second the fact that metaclopramide has few, if any, serious side effects. I haven't noticed any and my vets have had no problem with Barney being on it long term - he's been on it over a year. In fact it is keeping him alive as his gut doesn't function properly without it.

The propalin will hopefully help but if it doesn't I'd push for other meds. Has the vet tried antibiotics in case of a urinary infection?

What and how much of each thing is he actually eating?

Propalin is good but it stimulates the nervous system and i found doughnut to be more jumpy. She isn't a nervous bunny normally. Your rabbit may not get this and it wasn't terrible. Just something i noticed.

Metaclop no side effects at all. Not sure if it makes her eat even more as she has always been greedy but she certainly munches a lot which is a good thing. now she is on this she no longer needs metacam.

Metoclopramide can cause fits in bunnies, something our vet knows a lot about so we will only go down that route if the propalin doesn't work.

As for alfalfa hay, it would still be a problem as he only has 2 lower molar teeth so chewing is a problem and the other 3 bunnies he is with would get most of it. He's gone from 2.15 kg 4 weeks ago to 2.5kg so he's going in the right direction. He's supposed to be a dwarf lop but hasn't realised he is dwarf lol. He has a couple of eggcups of pellets each day including his ss pellets, parsley and a little hay.

We'll have to give the propalin a few days to see how that goes.
We have really good vets who are extremely knowledgeable and very supportive. They are straight to the point and tell us what they really think not what they think we want to hear and its always a case of quality of life over quantity with them but they still fight for the animal if the animal is fighting so at least we know they will do their very best for Fiva xxx