Mia - dental/xray -confused

Mia went in for an xray and a dental this morning.

She was eating less hay, her right eye was closing whilst eating, she was moving her head whilst eating greens as if uncomfortable, leaving the stalks of spring greens as if too tough, eating quite a few faecal pellets a day, clicking occasionally whilst eating. She had antibiotics and painkiller previous to this xray for about a week.

Apparently the xray is fine. The term was something like NRAD or NSAD? What does this mean?
The vet said there were no injuries to the tongue although the spurs were or looked 'sore' - what does this mean? They'd got worse in the week we tried antibiotics which I regret but if she'd have gone to sleep aand not woken up and the antibiotics could've solved it I wouldve never forgiven myself. The vet filed the left molar spurs and 'clipped and filed' the right molar spurs -the vet nurse said these weren't as bad as the left but to me with it being the right side she seemed to avoid with greens going in her mouth (can't be sure what she was doing on the inside but she kind of took greens in from the front and the left if it makes sense) and the fact clipping and filing sounds like more needed to be done would mean the right side was the worst? - Can someone explain this to me too? :S

We've got a repeat appointment for Friday, with the vet I've been dealing with mostly. To get her in sooner another vet has done her dental and xray whos suppose to have 22 years vet experience and has made these notes. I'm wondering if I'd have been better choosing a day when the vet shes been seeing could do it...

I thought clipping wasn't done anymore either? Or is it normal for vets still to clip?

The vet nurse said she was popping her head up when she called her name and that she was friendly and had a cuddle with her. This annoyed me, she's so nervous at home with me and Zak, I wouldn't say she knows her name and she usually hides if she sees anyone pop up. Or could she have been different at the vets? Or maybe it was when she was sedated?

She has more baytril and loxicom for until Friday's appointment. She settled next to Marley and I could hear her doing something with her teeth, its loudish but shes not doing it all the time, like when people bite their nails kind of noise? She just sat up, laid back down with her right eye looking sleepy and kinda chatted and then chewed her mouth from the front (like a cow?) and I can hear the odd tooth noises like the biting nails now and again.

This vet whos done her dental has said about seeing some dental specialist David Crossey or something similar? I'm wondering why, surely a rabbit specialist would be better? The vet Mia has been seeing regularly is nice and probably would agree a rabbit specialist would be better and thats who I'm booked in for seeing Friday.

Thoughts? Opinions? What next? I'm such a mess

Hi, try not to panic too much. I will try to answer some of your questions as I had a dental bunny for 5 years (he lived to the age of 9 and he had elongated roots)

Spurs looking "sore". I would think that they may mean they have been rubbing her cheek or tongue and may have caused a cut (abx should help these heal).

If the x-ray was normal why are they saying you need to see a dental specialist?

NRAD or NSAD? Did they say NSAID - if so then this is a painkiller which can make your bunny drowsy.

Some vets do still "clip" spurs rather than burr them down. I believe that burring is better than clipping/filing.

She may be grinding her teeth if she is in pain from the dental. Also the movement in her mouth could be because her mouth feels different.

I hope she starts to recover from the GA soon (I know mine never start eating until late in the night or the following morning).

ETA - as a backup you may want to put a post in rabbit chat to see if anyone can recommend a bunny savvy vet in your area.

Could it have been NAD??
nothing abnormal detected :wave:

Possibly little boots! It could've been a typo or something or the abbreviation with another word in?

Bunnybabe - she's still on the baytril and loxicom until we go back Friday. I think it was more of a if the problem persists then they'll be contacting a dental specialist as its mouth (or so it seems) related but would a rabbit specialist not be more suitable? I specifically looked for the I in NRAD/NSAD as I wondered if this what he meant but the nurse pointed to it when she said the xray hadn't shown anything and it was written next to the xray. When you say pain from the dental do you mean just because of having it done and it'll get better or that it could've made it worse?

She's eating quicker than before which is a better sign but her right eye still shuts when she eats or relaxes to Marley while the left is open. They said they checked her eyes and they were fine too. I'm not too happy about the clipping, I'm hoping it won't have added any problems. And when I've posted for a bunny savvy vet in recent months no one suggested anywhere

She hadn't eaten any faecal pellets through the night however the nurse gave them all the veg and pellets I took in rather than just a tiny handful so we had some uneaten caecals last night before bed - will only put a tiny amount in next time. They said they'd clip her ear to sedate her but I can't even see a pinprick hole or a shaved bit unless there wasn't enough to need to clip her. She was eating more or less straight away when we got home. Readigrass was the breaker.

There was a few crunching noises last night and she did this thing when she laid down and got relaxed where she kind of chattered with sleepy eyes? Wasn't loud and crunching though. Didn't know if it was a content thing or a pain thing. I feel like I'm rubbish at knowing whats wrong and I think that panics me more.

I'm not sure what the next step should be. What it could be or anything?

Hope Mia is doing OK today. As long as she is eating well and pooing as normal, things should settle down. They may need a day to fully recover from the anaesthetic and just being at the vet. Some rabbits seem to take a few days to get used to their 'new' teeth as it feels different - hopfully less painful. The painkiller should help. Plenty of hay / grass in her diet will hopefully keep the teeth worn down - at least it will minimise the dentals. I have one rabbit that had a spur but never got as far as a dental when I upped his hay intake. A couple of others I had needed further dentals at different intervals from around 6 weeks to 6 months for the rest of their lives.

David Crossley was recommended to me by my vet for a specialist dental rabbit. I think he is in Liverpool. He is on the web and I think he did other surgeries a bit nearer. There is also Frances Harcourt-Brown in Harrogate, which is where I ended up taking my rabbit.

If the x-rays showed normal tooth roots, your own vet may be able to keep on top of it. It sounds like they did all the things you would expect. Just watch her for a week or two. Things should settle down. Molar spurs can regrow so she may need this treatment again - some need it regularly.

Grinding teeth can be a sign of pain. Mention it at your next appointment as she may need a different dose or longer course of painkillers (NSAIDs). For now, just keep her comfortable, medicated and eating.


NAD = no abnormality detected
NSAID = non-steroidal anti-inflammatory (eg metacam)

Shimmer has given some good advice/info.

The teeth should settle down (it is like you going to the dentist, sometimes they are uncomfortable for a little while).

I was going to mention Francis Harcourt Brown. There is also Molly Varga in Cheshire if that is any closer to you.

If it is just spurs and no other dental issues, as Shimmer says your own vet should be able to keep on top of this. You will learn to look out for the signs of mouth discomfort e.g. dribbling, dropping food, not eating harder food/hay, throwing head back when eating and of course refusing to eat suddenly can be a sign :roll:

My dental bun had to have his teeth done every 4-5 weeks. I think if they were just small spurs they were clipped but if more detailed work was needed then they were burred.

Thank you both, its very much appreciated. I came home from work to some chewed up faecal pellets again. And the ings had arrived so happy bunnies! She seemed to be eating the odd strand and 'cutting' it with her front teeth a bit more than eating it... Also, she ate quite loudly and it sounded harsh when she was eating, I don't kmow of thats just until she's worn them down a bit or got used to them as you say. And her eye is still closing - this is the one thing thats worryingeme along with the faecals. Its not as many as before the dental but I'd say it was 10 or a few more. We did the xray as the vet thought it could possibly be an abscess but I would assume the antibiotics would've shrunk whatever could've started?

If it continues I will ask for a rabbit specialist I think. She's been perched sleepy tonight, laid down once and chattered her teeth (looks like her mouth is vibrating) - is this a bad sign then? She's done a dead bunny flop in front of me for the first time ever too about 10 minutes ago.

You will know if your bunny grinds her teeth as it is normally pretty loud. Keep a close eye on her eating and if you think it is not right contact your vet. I think you said she was going back Friday anyway so mention your concerns. Not sure about why her eye may still be closing but again maybe a phone call to the vet tomorroe might settle your mind.

It is a good idea to get x-rays when doing a dental so that you can identify any potential issues. The abx is only metacam so will probably only heal any cuts in the mouth. If it were an abcess (which your x-rays I believe were normal so not the case) then strong abx would probably be needed.

She's been on baytril for a week. When I asked the vet nurse she said everything was fine so they didn't understand why her eye was still closing. It feels like its incomplete, like theres not answers for everything if you know what I mean. I'm guessing the chattering/vibrating mouth could mean bad things too? She was chomping her teeth last night but haven't heard her much tonight.

I suppose its a case of watching her until we see the vet and saying what we see. Marleys been sneezing too but theres no discharge or runny eyes. I think the trips to the vet with her have stressed him a bit much

Thanks for your replies they're really appreciated.

The excess cecals could be to do with the abx, they can upset the tum. Have you tried to put her on some probiotic pellets/supplements? This can help with their tum. Also what pellets is she fed and what veg do they get? Although the excess cecals could be because of her dental issues, it could also be made worse by her diet. Some buns simply can't tolerate certain foods whereas another bun would be perfectly fine with it.

As for the chattering and closing one eye..I do find that my buns do this soon after a dental. I don't think it's pain as such. I think their mouth just feels different and uncomfortable and it takes them a while to get used to it. Closing the eye is usually pain related, I find that mine will do this when due for a dental or even if they are having tummy problems. Perhaps it is just a mixture of an upset tum and an uncomfortable feeling mouth.

Since you are off to the vets on Friday, I would raise your concerns with the vet and see what their response is. Tbh, from what you have described, I'd say they aren't very rabbit savvy. Obviously I can't know this for sure, and I'm only going by your experience, but I would be posting up and asking for a rabbit savvy vet in your area for any future treatment. Although, your vets have done the right thing by doing an xray, I wouldn't really expect them to give your bun abx if there was no damage to the mouth. If there was damage, then I can understand this completely, but I'm sure you mentioned that the vet said there wasn't any, and that the xray came back ok...so I am wondering why they have put your bun on abx? Some vets will do this to be on the safe side, but I wouldn't personally want this because of the effects they have on a bun's guts.

No caecals since the dental, I really think that was due to the vet nurse feeding them too much. The vet said bring nice noms to encourage her to eat and I'm not even sure who it was from. In fact that was the only day she hasn't eaten faecal pellets. What supplement would you suggest? What will it improve for her?

On a normal day they get about half a handful of pellets morning and night and spring greens eith their pellets. Then hay is freely accessible and freshened in the morning/at night. They get excel pellets.

They tried the abx as a course before the dental but I booked in early and got it done before the end of the 10 days so on picking her up they said to continue with ir until Friday as the spurs looked 'sore'. One vet there seems to know the basics, abscesses, e.c., snuffles, stasis and the like. The one who did her dental palmed her off when he saw her first. When posting previously for a rabbit savvy vet I got no response but I will try again in rabbit chat.

I'm going to watch her tonight with a torn up sprig green leaf. I've been shredding them so its been much easier for her so I suppose the observation of her eating that will be a eye opener. I haven't seen her closing her right eye for the past day so will see what shes like tonight. Marley has this obsession when grooming to really go to town on her eyes and its not licking its always biting :roll: but they're not sore or anything.

I can home to this though:


Less than before her dental but still happening!

I feed my two pro-fibre pellets which have probiotic in them. Animed is the cheapest at £9.50 including delivery and they do delivery quick too. I give them as "treats" as they are pellets. You can also buy pro-biotics to put in water or sprinkle over their food.

Hope the spring cabbage goes down well tonight


ETA - price includes postage and no min order value
http://www.animeddirect.co.uk/protexin-profibre-for-rabbits-800g.html

kazz said:

No caecals since the dental, I really think that was due to the vet nurse feeding them too much. The vet said bring nice noms to encourage her to eat and I'm not even sure who it was from. In fact that was the only day she hasn't eaten faecal pellets. What supplement would you suggest? What will it improve for her?

On a normal day they get about half a handful of pellets morning and night and spring greens eith their pellets. Then hay is freely accessible and freshened in the morning/at night. They get excel pellets.

They tried the abx as a course before the dental but I booked in early and got it done before the end of the 10 days so on picking her up they said to continue with ir until Friday as the spurs looked 'sore'. One vet there seems to know the basics, abscesses, e.c., snuffles, stasis and the like. The one who did her dental palmed her off when he saw her first. When posting previously for a rabbit savvy vet I got no response but I will try again in rabbit chat.

I'm going to watch her tonight with a torn up sprig green leaf. I've been shredding them so its been much easier for her so I suppose the observation of her eating that will be a eye opener. I haven't seen her closing her right eye for the past day so will see what shes like tonight. Marley has this obsession when grooming to really go to town on her eyes and its not licking its always biting :roll: but they're not sore or anything.

I can home to this though:

Less than before her dental but still happening!

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Oh, I see! She is actually chewing/eating her pellets (normal poo). I am sorry, I had thought you meant she was half eating her CECALS. :roll: Sorry for that, haha.

Ok, generally this means that she feels she is not getting enough fibre in her diet. Can I ask what hay she is fed? Do they eat much of it? My buns have their hay topped up several times a day because they won't eat hay that's been there a few hours. So perhaps try topping up their hay more frequently? If they aren't eating too much, then try cutting down on the fresh stuff to see if their intake increases. You can also try giving them lots of different types of hay. I wouldn't be very worried about her doing this, it could even be just a habit. If you are sure they are getting plenty of fibre then I'm not really sure why she would be doing this.

The probiotic pellets that I use are also pro-fibre pellets and these help to balance the bacteria in the guts and gives them some extra fibre. I use them because my doe, Xena, has a very iffy tummy and often produces excess cecals, she also has a very noisy gut, and giving her these everyday has helped her a lot.

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/rabbit-suppl...rotexin-pro-fibre-for-rabbits-800g-pot-p-1178 I buy mine from here.

I'm sorry I never replied, I got a new job, there was upset on my other half's family side and BT are rubbish!

They get ings hay and I cut down on their greens and pellets, even though it wasnt much it cpuld be less and for a few days she stopped, I've been buying parsley too rather than spring greens, she won't eat much mint evenn though I know it'd help her.

It's not anywhere near as much as she was doing it but she is still doing it. I got some of the probiotics and give them one everyday. Is this okay? I am grateful for both inputs and can only apologise for life getting in the way. The vet was quite willing to refer me to Frances if the problem progressed. She still chats her mouth as if its vibrating sometimes but I haven't seen her close her eye since moving her on to herbs, I don't know if the spring greens may have been too tough? I don't know.

One thing I noticed about their poos is that Mia's, well I'm assuming they're hers, seemed drier than Marleys, and not like it was hay, just as if it were specs of hay in them.

I've never worried so much about a pet at every little thing haha, she's binkying and mooching as normal and theres no feeling or sign of bumps under her cheeks or anything.


Quick q - because we've had a dental problem and it didn't turn out to be an abscess - would we get cover for this in future if I took insurance out, as it wasn't an abscess? Marley had a stint of not eating and throwing himself out on the floor once when we went to the emergency vet so I doubt he'd be covered for stasis either.

kazz said:

I'm sorry I never replied, I got a new job, there was upset on my other half's family side and BT are rubbish!

They get ings hay and I cut down on their greens and pellets, even though it wasnt much it cpuld be less and for a few days she stopped, I've been buying parsley too rather than spring greens, she won't eat much mint evenn though I know it'd help her.

It's not anywhere near as much as she was doing it but she is still doing it. I got some of the probiotics and give them one everyday. Is this okay? I am grateful for both inputs and can only apologise for life getting in the way. The vet was quite willing to refer me to Frances if the problem progressed. She still chats her mouth as if its vibrating sometimes but I haven't seen her close her eye since moving her on to herbs, I don't know if the spring greens may have been too tough? I don't know.

One thing I noticed about their poos is that Mia's, well I'm assuming they're hers, seemed drier than Marleys, and not like it was hay, just as if it were specs of hay in them.

I've never worried so much about a pet at every little thing haha, she's binkying and mooching as normal and theres no feeling or sign of bumps under her cheeks or anything.


Quick q - because we've had a dental problem and it didn't turn out to be an abscess - would we get cover for this in future if I took insurance out, as it wasn't an abscess? Marley had a stint of not eating and throwing himself out on the floor once when we went to the emergency vet so I doubt he'd be covered for stasis either.

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I hope things have settled down. Don't apologise!

Most insurers won't cover dentals anyway, the fact that she's already had one means that nothing dental related will be covered. I don't have insurance because of this reason. 3 out of 4 of the buns I have had have needed dentals at some point in their life, so it seemed pointless to have insurance. I would say it is worth it in case of injury or a long stay at the vets, because that can get into the £1000's. I just put money to one side for them, and plan on getting a credit card to cover for emergencies.

Tbh, it might be habit with eating the poos. I know one of my friend's buns does this, but he certainly doesn't lack in fibre. Spring greens can cause gas in sensitive tums, so it was possibly this was happening and causing the bouts of stasis. I always advocate feeding herbs and fresh/dried forage rather than veg, because forage is so much better and more natural for them. :thumb:
The best poo should be large, round and golden coloured. It should also crumble and feel dry. (Yum!) :lol:

They are soo worrying. I'm having problems with one of my buns atm, and still can't figure out what is wrong with her.

Glad to hear that they seem happy and healthy within themselves.

Vegan_Bunny said:

I hope things have settled down. Don't apologise!

Most insurers won't cover dentals anyway, the fact that she's already had one means that nothing dental related will be covered. I don't have insurance because of this reason. 3 out of 4 of the buns I have had have needed dentals at some point in their life, so it seemed pointless to have insurance. I would say it is worth it in case of injury or a long stay at the vets, because that can get into the £1000's. I just put money to one side for them, and plan on getting a credit card to cover for emergencies.

Tbh, it might be habit with eating the poos. I know one of my friend's buns does this, but he certainly doesn't lack in fibre. Spring greens can cause gas in sensitive tums, so it was possibly this was happening and causing the bouts of stasis. I always advocate feeding herbs and fresh/dried forage rather than veg, because forage is so much better and more natural for them. :thumb:
The best poo should be large, round and golden coloured. It should also crumble and feel dry. (Yum!) :lol:

They are soo worrying. I'm having problems with one of my buns atm, and still can't figure out what is wrong with her.

Glad to hear that they seem happy and healthy within themselves.

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My mum said 'don't have children!' And all I could say was 'a child will scream or show there is something wrong! '

Its rubbish that they won't cover anything after having a dental but then again I suppose insurers aren't going to fork out for an abscess if they've previously had dental issues due to it most likely being a common occurance. He only ever had the one bout *touch wood* and I'm still not sure why, nevertheless they get fed at the same times and have fresh hay morning, as soon as my other half is home from work and then some new in the evening and just before bed. I've even started worrying about the hay while I'm at work :lol:

If shes in the living room and I'm cleaning their setup out and theres no litter tray in yhere she will chew them regardless, I've come to accept this is her trying to get rid of them or make them 'blend' in (she doesn't mind pooing all over the kitchen though). I'm scared if I got her spring greens again she'd be shutting her right eye while sje ate again but I don't want to tempt it. I am definitely going to have to look up on how do to my own forage, it'd be a lot cheaper!

I'm sorry to hear about your bun hope she picks up soon. Whats her symptons and the situation?

kazz said:

Its rubbish that they won't cover anything after having a dental but then again I suppose insurers aren't going to fork out for an abscess if they've previously had dental issues due to it most likely being a common occurance. He only ever had the one bout *touch wood* and I'm still not sure why, nevertheless they get fed at the same times and have fresh hay morning, as soon as my other half is home from work and then some new in the evening and just before bed. I've even started worrying about the hay while I'm at work :lol:

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Not necessarily, you'll need to ask the insurer. I have insurance for Bailey, they won't cover him for flystrike for 2 years because he had flystrike when he was handed in to the rescue. So its not forever. Although the flystrike thing seemed stupid to me, because it's not going to be an ongoing problem.

I have Ash insured with Petplan and burring down of the teeth is the only thing they won't cover, but they've covered all the other dental related things like taking out her incisors, tooth abscess, liver issues and several bouts of stasis.

I may be best gving them a call then. I suppose they can only say no! Then there's the option of saving every month