• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.

Understanding Breeders, the show world and what breeders do right *pictures*

quarterbunny

Young Bun
Hi folks,

I have encountered a lot of folks on here that have a poor opinion of breeders in general, and as a breeder myself, I wanted to take some time to explain breeders, the show world, and what breeders do right.

"What we don't understand, we fear. What we fear, we judge as evil. What we judge as evil, we attempt to control. And what we cannot control...we attack."-Author Unknown

So lets begin with the beginning...

1.) How do people become breeders?
90% of people who become breeders start out as children. In organizations like 4-H, F.F.A *The future farmers of america association* and other youth centered agricultural groups. National rabbit organizations, like the American Rabbit Breeders Association, and individual breed organizations also have individual youth programs as well. The A.R.B.A has over 12,000 youth members to date! The youth programs are very special, I myself started in 4-H when I was twelve. I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder then, and my psychologist suggested I do a 4-H project because of my deep love for animals and because it would give me a more organized and structured routine to help my condition. It worked! Three months after I began 4-H I no longer had to take medications because my life became wrapped up in rabbits. These youth programs teach great rabbit lessons. Young children are taught how to properly handle, care for, and check for health in their rabbits. There is even a special competition called "Showmanship" where a youth must demonstrate his/her ability to do all of these things, and is generally like performing and health and wellness exam before a judge (this link has general procedures for a showmanship competition if you would like to read it http://www.extension.colostate.edu/...livestock/RabbitShowmanshipEtiquetteGuide.pdf ) These Showmanship techniques were developed by veterinarians at a veterinary conference for use by A.R.B.A. and were distributed over the years to the different organizations. The Judge at the competition often asks questions about different rabbit health issues, and the youth must know how to check for the condition and demonstrate that, as well as explaining different treatments for the ailment. By the time a youth in these programs grows up, they are practiced in this they know how to examine and treat their own animals, because they know the information in their sleep. The information is updated every few years to reflect new handling practices, current veterinary practice and new treatments... Many 4-H , youth group,and F.F.A. members go on to become veterinarians themselves, I myself am working towards my veterinary doctorate. A.R.B.A. recognized this, and in an effort to support more rabbit knowledgeable veterinarians going into practice, offers a college scholarship each year. Youth compete in competitions called "Rabbit Royalty" each year as well... imagine a college exam paired with a beauty pageant. This is depicted very well in the movie "Rabbit Fever" a film by Amy Do. http://www.rabbitfever.com/ The youth programs give great foundations to future breeders, they instill good values about proper rabbit care, handling, they teach good breeding practices, how to show rabbits properly, and set a standard of excellence that must be met. From a youth's first contact in the breeding and show world they are taught that sick rabbits, mean tempered rabbits, and mishandled rabbits will have them immediately removed from a show, and have them shunned by the breeding and showing world.

2.) What do breeders do?

Breeders breed to the show standard for their given breed... what standard is that you say? Every breeder's bible is "The Standard Of Perfection" Every rabbit breeding organization the world round emulates it in some shape or form. The Standard Of Perfection is a guide book that contains all the rules, regulations, breed descriptions of every recognized rabbit breed, and common rabbit health issues and their treatments. The standard is updated every five years to insure that information is timely and accurate. Here is a sample http://rabbitsingapore.org/Rabbit Show Information (published).pdf

The standard addresses pressing health concerns in rabbits as well, certain genetic conditions to watch out for and avoid breeding, certain viral and bacterial born illnesses that must be treated. A body of people known as the Standards Committee comprising of judges, heads of the A.R.B.A, and veterinarians are whom decide what goes into the standard.
Every rabbit breed is allotted 100 points, and the standard describes how those points are allotted while judging the animal. The standard shows how shows should be run, proper procedures and the like.
The standards first pages are dedicated to general disqualifications of all rabbits from showing... Bad temperament, genetic illnesses, Disease born illnesses will all have rabbits immediately disqualified from showing. The A.R.B.A. has a no-tolerance policy on these points, Breeders must breed for the betterment of the rabbit species first and foremost and for their breed second.

Breeders keep what is called a "Rabbitry" in which they breed to these guidelines, A.R.B.A. publishes a rabbit husbandry guideline every few years as well, establishing the minimum guidelines on care and housing, they are always encouraging to go above and beyond these standards. The A.R.B.A. just went toe-to-toe with the United States Agricultural Department lobbying for better rabbit care standards to be enacted into the Animal Welfare Act, which details how and what the government deems adequate care for animals.

When people think of breeders they think of tiny cages, lonely lives, etc. But many rabbit breeders hold to a higher standard of care and concern for their rabbits the following are pictures from different rabbitries:












These pictures illustrate what breeders truly are, and how they keep their rabbits. As in all human societies, there is the bad, and the good. People retain the bad more quickly, because it is our nature to do so, we do that in order to avoid it in future. People get so caught up in railing against the bad, that they forget to support and uphold the good.

Rabbit breeders want to better the rabbit species, and better their breed... We ridicule and ostracize those who don't hold to par. If you do things the wrong way, then the very political nature of the rabbit breeders/showers world puts you into your place quickly or as a Donna a breeder friend of mine once said "If you are not doing anything good for rabbits we don't want you around"
Bottom line... better breeding and care standards yield better rabbits; better rabbits win ribbons... we want ribbons, A LOT of ribbons! so we breed with care and provide high quality care to our animals.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
3.) What is a rabbit show? What goes on etc.?

A rabbit show is a gathering of rabbit breeders (Rabbit fanciers) in different locations, usually in spring-autumn, where according to show procedures we place our rabbits before a judge, who judges them against the breed standard. These shows can be as few as thirty people with a few hundred rabbits, up to thousands with thousands of rabbits (A recent A.R.B.A. National show set a record over 20,000 rabbits in attendance!) These shows are also social functions! Rabbit breeders are a generally friendly and kind lot, we make friends easy and look forward to each and every show, because we get to socialize with our rabbit friends. We swap stories, talk about litters, rabbits, bloodlines, genetics, colors, fur types... anything and everything rabbit. Often we will trade or sell rabbits at shows, or breed a doe to a top stud buck. There are raffles, food, booths with rabbit supplies on sale; Often people who invent things pertaining to rabbits will have booths to show their new products; there are arts and crafts galore as well (My favorite is the angora rabbit weavers association booths. Angora rabbits are a breed that produces ultra soft wool, the owner brushes the rabbits constantly *they are never shaved* the wool is collected, and then right there at the show you will see them carding and spinning yarn and knitting and crocheting different items of clothing, etc.) Angora rabbits are funny to look at before they go to the judging table, if they aren't being groomed, their owners are wrapping their ear and body wool in delicate tissue paper and ribbons, this way they stay clean and soft, the hair is parted so they don't get too warm, and so their wool does not catch and hurt them in their carriers.

When you get to the show, you unload your rabbits and head straight to the check in table; where the group hosting the show compares your name to a list (You sign up and enter the show with an entry letter weeks in advance). Once checked in, you head to the exam area. (Usually a room or building set apart from the show area) Here a team of qualified veterinarians examine your rabbits to make sure they are healthy and sound. Breeders rabbits often see more veterinary care than most pet rabbits in their lifetime because of this. If your rabbit is unwell the vet will treat your rabbit and disqualify it from the show, you forfeit your entry fee, but your entry fee is normally lower than any vet bill you would have incurred. If a breeder has a majorly ill rabbit that needs emergency care some vets have a mobile unit on site, or will refer you to the nearest office.

Once your rabbits health is cleared you enter the show area. usually show tables in the middle with folks setting up their rabbits around the outside. Everyone kinda defines a space for themselves, set up water bottles, feeds bunnies, set up play pens if you have them, and waits for their classes to be called and visit friends, and booths.

When your class is called you go to a long skinny show table with a flat carpeted area on the judges side, and coops along it that open from front and back, you place your rabbit into the coop that has solid walls to keep other rabbits away from yours for safety and to keep bunnies calm.
The judge goes down the table, examines the rabbits, and then makes a selection (Many times judges use coins, or poker chips of different denominations placed in front of the coops to tell how he wants to place the rabbit, if you know his/her system you can often tell how your rabbit placed.)
There is also a table aide following the judge at the table, he makes comments and the aide writes these comments down on a special judging card that you get a copy of at the end of the show. This tells you why and how your rabbit was placed as it was.
The judge announces the winners and you then collect your rabbits, and ribbons or trophies if you won. At the end of the day after all rabbits are judged the best from each breed are placed on the best in show table, and one rabbit is selected for best in show... this is a thrill for a breeder.
Every rabbit that wins best in breed earns what is called a "Leg", if you win best in show you earn two "Legs" If your rabbit earns five legs, he is considered a grand champion, and can be registered with The A.R.B.A grand champion registry.
All rabbits are given an identifying ear tattoo at six months (this is controversial, but is very necessary. The process is fast, done with a special tattoo clamp with needle numbers or letters that get put into the clamp in the correct order, then secured, placed in the left ear in the space that has no blood vessels, the rabbit is wrapped in a towel with it's eyes covered and just the one ear up, once the tattoo clamp is in place and someone has secure hold of the rabbit besides you, you press the clamp for two seconds very firmly, and then release. This leaves little holes in the ear, and then you apply a black dye ointment that has a numbing agent in it to numb the site. Numbing gels are not placed beforehand because the clamp could slip, hit a blood vessel, and cause damage and extra pain, we don't want that.
These are done for many reasons. First, if your rabbit is lost this identifies him/her, like an identification tag, horses have their lips tattoo'd for much the same reason, second it keeps track of your rabbit in record keeping, if your rabbit is found to have a dangerous disease, or if it has a genetic condition then that rabbit can be tracked and removed from the show world, and breeding pool. Third, when your rabbit wins grand champion and is registered, he gets another special tattoo in his right ear. a circle around a letter R, with a number. This is kept in a catalog of grand champions and allows breeders to track their rabbits ancestry back many many many generations, lets say if a netherland dwarf breeder such as myself gets a bunch of genetically bad peanuts, but have selected very carefully whom I bred, I can go to this catalog and trace if my litters great great great grand sire was a carrier of the double dwarf gene; that way I know not to breed from that line anymore. So you see it serves a critical purpose in ensuring the health and well being of future generations.) *And on a side note, some well meaning person once said to me "That is soo horrible! how could you do that to a poor rabbit! how would you like that done to you!" The next day I went to a tattoo shop, and had a very large piece of tattoo work done on a sensitive part of my body, the tattoo artist worked on me for nearly two hours, I had no numbing medication before or after the procedure, and I winced once during it... so I subjected myself to similar pain for nearly 200% longer and I was not phased by it, in fact I went back and got a tattoo in my ear as well :)*
Showing serves to sort out the bad from the good, every generation gets better and better because the previous one was judged and the very best were chosen for the next.

It is early morning here, and I am going to bed, but will publish the second half sometime tomorrow... it will include sections on breed clubs, what rabbit breeder organizations are doing for rabbits in general, as well as international clubs, and so on.... thank you for taking the time to read this I do appreciate your willingness to learn about the "Other Side"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The set ups are better than expected but I still have several issues

1 - cat in the cage!
2 - no roof/ covering to the outdoor pens a cat or fox could easily get into them
3 - no shelter other than the hutches which are ok but not huge
4 - why breed at all when there are so many rabbits in the uk looking for homes already. Personally I think that is wrong and nothing will change my views on that sorry
 
The set ups are better than expected but I still have several issues

1 - cat in the cage!
2 - no roof/ covering to the outdoor pens a cat or fox could easily get into them
3 - no shelter other than the hutches which are ok but not huge
4 - why breed at all when there are so many rabbits in the uk looking for homes already. Personally I think that is wrong and nothing will change my views on that sorry

All of the above with huge emphasis on number 4 :thumb:

Also most breeders I've encountered over the years don't have set-ups like that. For me purposely breeding when so many need homes already is selfish. It's not in the animals interest it's purely for human pleasure and for every purposely bred one that goes to a home with the public, it's another rescue one who is denied a home.

Your quote at the start I personally feel isn't the case at all as to why people often have a poor opinion of breeders - it's knowledge, not lack of which makes this so.
 
Last edited:
To be honest I just read a small bit and looked at the pics (as the text you use to write in does not appeal to my eyes)

I do agree with the points made above.

You really ain't gonna change my opinion of breeding no matter how good the conditions are, I personally don't see the need.
 
i have nothing against good breeders but many keep their rabbits in small hutches in small sheds with no fans to keep them cool they only see the inside of the shed 24/7 which is normally dark and are used because the breeder is trying to create the perfect rabbit for showing

most are hoarders who just cant stop breeding and end up with more and more rabbits because they don't let the ones go who they think are going to be a fantastic example of their breed so they are kept for breeding.

the breeding rabbits are passed from pillar to post around the circle of breeders who are trying to enhance their breeding problem.

kept on cheap sawdust and fed pellets they do not get good quality hay or herbs because the breeder cannot afford it because they have too many.

one of my rabbits is from a breeder a buck who they had no need for any more i gave him a good home so that he did not have to live like the above anymore the buck was kept in a 2ft square hutch for 2 1/2 years and when i put him into his new 2 storey 5ft hutch with extra depth and a 8ft aviary to run around in his little legs literally shook as he walked he didn't hop he walked he had not been able to hop in his prison cell.

i am all for breeders who only keep a couple of does and bucks so are able to give them all a good quality of living but as i said previously too many breeders are hoarders and go on to having large numbers of breeding rabbits.

as for the tattoing it doesn't make it any less painful or right for the rabbit just because you can say i suffered it and was ok ..you went voluntarily you were not restrained you cannot compare the two it is inflicting pain on a vulnerable creature why not just have them chipped??
 
Last edited:
Very few breeders have those size set ups
Breed standards mean so many animals classed as sub standard and therefore not wanted..often culled
When some say not in it for the money is, in many cases stupid, doesn't take a genius to work out if you are breeding any pet and selling on for pedigree prices you will make a profit..( in cases of dogs huge profits )
Huge numbers of every type of pet are cast off and put to sleep each year due to over saturation of market, therefore anyone who truly cares about animal welfare would, in the present climate, neither breed nor buy from a breeder.
 
Very few breeders have those size set ups
Breed standards mean so many animals classed as sub standard and therefore not wanted..often culled
When some say not in it for the money is, in many cases stupid, doesn't take a genius to work out if you are breeding any pet and selling on for pedigree prices you will make a profit..( in cases of dogs huge profits )
Huge numbers of every type of pet are cast off and put to sleep each year due to over saturation of market, therefore anyone who truly cares about animal welfare would, in the present climate, neither breed nor buy from a breeder.

:thumb:

When I see breeders' websites and they say they are hobby breeders and all the money goes back into the care of the rabbits, to me it read: "I'm not registering as a business as I have no intention of paying tax on my profits!"
 
Well this is going to go down like a lead balloon....*gets popcorn*

With over 60,000 rabbits in rescues in the UK alone, I think it's pretty obvious that there is "NO NEED TO BREED".

You won't get many people agreeing with anything you say, pretty pictures set aside.

Breeding is not required.
 
I have no understanding of any appeal in showing Rabbits. My motto is always if something is not done for either the health and/or welfare of the Rabbit then dont do it. This comment sums up my belief that the only reason people show Rabbits is for self gratification


Bottom line... better breeding and care standards yield better rabbits; better rabbits win ribbons... we want ribbons, A LOT of ribbons!

I would be a hypocrite to make any statements about Breeding in general having recently accepted a gift of a Rabbit bought from a Breeder. However, it is the case that here in the UK there are already tens of thousands of Rabbits in need of a home. Healthy Rabbits are being euthanised simply because there is no more space available for them in Rescues/Shelters. I totally understand the view that it is unnecessary to breed even more Rabbits, regardless of the motive.

Also, breeding to 'better the Standard' all too often refers to the aesthetic standard, this can have very negative impact on the overall health of the breed. My examples being Rexes with heart problems, Lops with Dental problems and ear problems, Giants with spinal problems and heart problems, Nethies with Dental problems and upper respiratory tract problems. Ok eventually these issues might be eliminated, but how many Rabbits suffer during the 'work in progress' phase ?

Just as happened in the Dog Breeding world, the need to produce the 'perfect specimen' of a particular breed all too often comes at a very high price.

Whilst the accommodation in the photographs show larger set-ups than is often the case many are not secure from predators and I really dislike the use of wire bottom cages. Rex Rabbits in particular should never be kept in such a way in my opinion.

So in summary I see no point in breeding Rabbits to show them and in the UK (which is all I have experience of) there are no valid 'its for the Rabbits benefit' reasons to breed Rabbits at all.

As previously noted, there will be Rescues reading my last comment with gritted teeth due to my latest Rabbit being bought for me from a Breeder. Day in day out Rescues have to cope with too many unwanted Rabbits and ever reducing space and money to cater for them.
 
All of the above with huge emphasis on number 4 :thumb:

Also most breeders I've encountered over the years don't have set-ups like that. For me purposely breeding when so many need homes already is selfish. It's not in the animals interest it's purely for human pleasure and for every purposely bred one that goes to a home with the public, it's another rescue one who is denied a home.

Your quote at the start I personally feel isn't the case at all as to why people often have a poor opinion of breeders - it's knowledge, not lack of which makes this so.

Completely agree. I didn't actually read it though as the font is uncomfortable to my eyes.
 
To be honest I just read a small bit and looked at the pics (as the text you use to write in does not appeal to my eyes)

I do agree with the points made above.

You really ain't gonna change my opinion of breeding no matter how good the conditions are, I personally don't see the need.


I thought it was just me !! I get a migraine from reading it
 
Your opening quote isn't appropriate in this instance, as most people here know about breeding all too well, and have had to deal with the devastating consequences.

The font you have chosen makes the text very hard to read, could you make it less bold?
 
As long as there are rabbits in rescues there is no need to breed more. However nice some breeders' set-ups are, or how well some breeders look after their rabbits, it doesn't make it right to breed in the first place.

I foster rescued rabbits for my local rescue. I have 3 bunnies here who have been waiting for a home for nearly a year. Other rescues will have many more who have been waiting even longer. All the while more baby rabbits are being brought into the world every single day. How is that right?

As for shows, can you explain what benefit that has for the rabbits?
 
Have had posts deleted when responding to this member.Also yesterday warned for my comments.
All I can say it looks like most members (after reading responses) agree with my views.
As I said backed up by going to Rabbits in Need section.
And no ,all conditions are not like the set up shown.

But it needs government legislation before the tide will turn.
 
Bottom line... better breeding and care standards yield better rabbits; better rabbits win ribbons... we want ribbons, A LOT of ribbons!

I'm afraid this for me says absolutely everything. It's all about what "I" want, not what is best for the rabbits. If we turn each element around and ask "what is best for the welfare of the rabbits?" the resulting behaviour would be different.

As I said in the other thread. The various rabbit breeds are actually genetic mutations and do often result in problems for the animals. And why? Because we humans think it's cute to have rabbits with lopped ears, fluffy fur, tiny or giant, flat faces etc etc. Does the rabbit care about ribbons? Which is better for the rabbit - to have a safe, secure enclosure where it has plenty of space to live a relaxing and happy life with a friend of its own, or to be put into a travel cage and shipped around the country to be stared at and studied? In what way does that benefit the rabbit at all - absolutely none!

As for the need for tattooing, again there are plenty of alternative ways of keeping track of those issues without resorting to tattoos. I have kept rabbits for nearly 30 years now and funnily enough I have never lost a rabbit, so I don't really see that tattooing is necessary from that point of view. Just keep them in secure accommodation and don't take them anywhere which could result in their getting lost. As for it being necessary to track genetic issues - doesn't a notepad and pen, a spreadsheet or a database work just as well? Or do you have so many rabbits that it is impossible to keep track of who is who (in which case some kind of label on the outside of the pen would do just as well wouldn't it?). Again if we ask 'what is best for the rabbit' I don't think that tattooing would be up there, that seems to me that it is purely for human convenience.

I don't know where you live, but as others have also said, here in the uk it is estimated that 67,000 rabbits are given up to rescue every year. Do you keep every single one of the rabbits that you breed? If not, every home that you send a rabbit to (no matter how excellent, how well checked, how well you have raised and prepared the babies and look after the parents) is one less home that is available for a rabbit who already exists. Rabbits are put to sleep every day because there are simply more rabbits than available homes, so to keep adding more rabbits just makes the problem worse.

So you see, it's not that many of us don't understand breeding, in fact it's the opposite - we understand it very well indeed, and with that understanding, we just cannot see anything in it which is for the benefit of the rabbits. It is all for the benefit of the humans, and everything you have said so far simply backs that up rather than counters it.
 
I'm afraid this for me says absolutely everything. It's all about what "I" want, not what is best for the rabbits. If we turn each element around and ask "what is best for the welfare of the rabbits?" the resulting behaviour would be different.

As I said in the other thread. The various rabbit breeds are actually genetic mutations and do often result in problems for the animals. And why? Because we humans think it's cute to have rabbits with lopped ears, fluffy fur, tiny or giant, flat faces etc etc. Does the rabbit care about ribbons? Which is better for the rabbit - to have a safe, secure enclosure where it has plenty of space to live a relaxing and happy life with a friend of its own, or to be put into a travel cage and shipped around the country to be stared at and studied? In what way does that benefit the rabbit at all - absolutely none!

As for the need for tattooing, again there are plenty of alternative ways of keeping track of those issues without resorting to tattoos. I have kept rabbits for nearly 30 years now and funnily enough I have never lost a rabbit, so I don't really see that tattooing is necessary from that point of view. Just keep them in secure accommodation and don't take them anywhere which could result in their getting lost. As for it being necessary to track genetic issues - doesn't a notepad and pen, a spreadsheet or a database work just as well? Or do you have so many rabbits that it is impossible to keep track of who is who (in which case some kind of label on the outside of the pen would do just as well wouldn't it?). Again if we ask 'what is best for the rabbit' I don't think that tattooing would be up there, that seems to me that it is purely for human convenience.

I don't know where you live, but as others have also said, here in the uk it is estimated that 67,000 rabbits are given up to rescue every year. Do you keep every single one of the rabbits that you breed? If not, every home that you send a rabbit to (no matter how excellent, how well checked, how well you have raised and prepared the babies and look after the parents) is one less home that is available for a rabbit who already exists. Rabbits are put to sleep every day because there are simply more rabbits than available homes, so to keep adding more rabbits just makes the problem worse.

So you see, it's not that many of us don't understand breeding, in fact it's the opposite - we understand it very well indeed, and with that understanding, we just cannot see anything in it which is for the benefit of the rabbits. It is all for the benefit of the humans, and everything you have said so far simply backs that up rather than counters it.

This. Definitely.
 
There are currently 60,000 rabbits in rescue looking for homes, there are far less homes than there are rabbits.

Absolutely nothing more has to be said about breeding rabbits in this country. It's just not necessary and the fact that some (very few) breeders perhaps are responsible in that they:

  • Keep all rabbits in the minimum required 6x2' hutch with attached 8x6' run
  • Breed for health and temprement and NOT to win a worthless ribbon
  • Do not over-breed their animals
  • Fork out on any vet treatment necessary for their animals
  • Take responsibility for the animals they breed (if a new owner finds themselves unable to care for the animal a breeder should be prepared to take it back and either keep it themselves or find it a new home

Frankly if anyone can find me a rabbit breeder that does all of the above I'd be amazed. However all of the above is totally irrelevant, all breeders whether they're backyard breeders, accidental breeders or breeders as described above (if they even exist) are contributing to the over population of pet rabbits in the UK. Therefore no breeder of rabbits can really be labelled "responsible" in my opinion. I'm afraid the original posts don't really address this.
 
Back
Top