Longterm Prospects for Dental Buns?

We took on our darling Nora knowing that she has dreadful teeth. Even when they are 'ok' the vet still says they are terrible.

At the moment we have two options. She's not a year old yet and are faced with the prospect of 4 yearly dentals or putting her through an enormous operation to remove most of her back teeth.

The vet who reviewed her and did her first dental said the large operation would have a good chance of working and she'd be able to eat normally following it but that it is a huge undertaking which would need to be performed by a specialist vet.

Our vet has advised us against it as whilst she's eating there's no need to do it just yet, as it may well stop her from eating.

I'm concerned that she'll have to undergo 4 GAs every year for potentially the next 10 years, and am concerned that as she gets older she will struggle to recover. I don't know whether to discuss going ahead with the larger operation whilst she is younger and has a better chance of survival rather than putting her through more and more dangerous GAs as she gets older.

Anyone have any advice?

Bumping this up I havn't been in this situation yet, so don't have any advice sorry xxx

Our JayJay suffered from bad teeth but the root of his problems was more due to the fact he had one tooth missing at the back so the one on the bottom had nothing to grind against and so grew out of control. I feel this isn't a great example for you to read about as sadly his heart gave up during a dental one time after he had previously recovered very well from them. If he had survived JayJay would have required a dental every 8 weeks or so and no long-term solutions were suggested.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will reply soon.

Thanks guys. I just don't want to put her through unnecessary operations if a larger op would fix the problem but also don't want to stress her with a huge operation and then she struggles.

There's also finances too, which are not a huge part of it but the large operation would cost around £500 and she'd need at least twice yearly check ups, but 4 yearly dentals would cost £80 each treatment meaning that if she lives another 10 years we'll have paid more than £3000 for her teeth. We took her on knowing that so it's not a huge issue but it is something to consider.

I have had an elderly dental rabbit with one functional lung cope well with anaesthetics for dentals several times a year for most of his life. He died at 7.5 years from a non-dental related issue. I would have no hesitation in putting them through 4 GAs a year if required at whatever age, if that is what was needed for their quality of life.

Recovery from and gaps between each op may vary every time. Sometimes it could be a few weeks, others 6 months. I got used to the dentals being a part of his life and that to lose him under GA was better than to suffer longer term with not being able to eat. You get used to the signs that it is time for another dental - each rabbit of mine was different, so you can optimise the gaps between dentals without risking stasis, weight loss, etc. Weighing them weekly is quite a good indicator of how they are doing.

There are dental specialists around who may have different treatments available - it's worth asking for a specialist opinion - and it may be no more expensive than your usual vet. Some vets burr the teeth down further than others to achieve a longer gap between dentals. Some teeth can also be killed at the root by injection to stop them growing.

I would not agree to surgery to remove all of or most of a Rabbits MOLAR teeth

It would be a massive operation risking jaw fractures, a huge amount of post operative pain, risk of infection/abscesses

Then there would be the likelyhood of ongoing gut problems due to the fact that the Rabbit would be unable to eat an appropriate diet ever again

For me personally it is in the 'just because it may be technically possible to do it, it is not necessarily ethically correct to do it' category. A step too far for a Rabbit in my care.

But that opinion may not be shared with everyone

Good luck for whatever you decide.

I would opt for the 'Dentals when needed'

I would ask around for specialist vet recommendations (either your vet, on here, or via the RWAF) and ask to be referred there to discuss your options for Nora.

As Jane has said, molar removal comes with a great risk of shattering the jaw because the roots are so deep-seated; if the teeth are already loose or there is infection then it's a much easier task & it's usually those sort of circumstances that would warrant tooth removal - rather than just for overgrown molars.

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00...Indiv_TechniquesRabbit/MolarExtractRabbit.htm (Most of this is quite technical but it confirms/explains what I've said above)

For now though, I would opt for burring when necessary and see how you get on. As Shimmer said, it's hard to predict how often dentals will be needed and, with a good diet, you might find that you're able to increase the time between dentals.

Jack's-Jane said:

I would not agree to surgery to remove all of or most of a Rabbits MOLAR teeth

It would be a massive operation risking jaw fractures, a huge amount of post operative pain, risk of infection/abscesses

Then there would be the likelyhood of ongoing gut problems due to the fact that the Rabbit would be unable to eat an appropriate diet ever again

For me personally it is in the 'just because it may be technically possible to do it, it is not necessarily ethically correct to do it' category. A step too far for a Rabbit in my care.

But that opinion may not be shared with everyone

Good luck for whatever you decide.

I would opt for the 'Dentals when needed'

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agree with this .... /\

I had a mini lop who developed teeth probs at 5 yr old ... he had regular dentals under ga from that point onwards and managed well, living to be a week off 10 yr old .

I'm not sure what to advise you - when a tooth is removed, the upper/lower one should be removed as well because it grows madly. And it depends a lot how many teeth are problematic. If they aren't that much, I would say go for it. But know that you should find a vet you really trust - a half-done job in this case is unacceptable. you have to spend at least a week with your bun since its jaw will be hurt and she won't be able to eat for a week or so. Normally my vet would advise in that case to do it in 2 ops(upper and lower teeth, but it depends on how many teeth you are removing), so that the stress is less big.
So in general I'd say give the op a try but do avery good very exaustive research and find a good vet.
If the teeth to be removed are a lot, then Jane is pretty much right -not chewing the food properly would lead to gut issues.
If it was me who had this problem I wouldn't take it to be under anesthesia every 3 months, even if the other thing is risky. I mean, one anesthesia against 40...
Whatever you decide, I would like to give you one advice - your bun will go through the op much with less problems if you feed her before it and she poops normal poos, she'll recover quickly after that as well. I know that feeding a rabbit every 3-4 hours is an issue, especially when you are in school/working/going to lectures, but just giving fluids to revive a bun that is not eating right won't stumulate the gut as much as some nice fibre.

Hi Cari. I would recommend getting up to Harrogate to see Francis Harcourt Brown. We were in this situation with Scarlet, our vet was doing an agressive dental every 10 to 12 weeks and he referred us to FHB. Scarlet has appaling molars but only on one side of her mouth, they grow at odd angles and are brown and mottled and have a rough surface. The other side of the mouth is fine which sounds a bit different to your situation.
FHB has removed some of the problem teeth in two separate procedures and Scarlet hasn't had a dental now for 6 months *touches wood*. FHB also uses the technique where they remove the pulp from the teeth to stop them growing but Scarlets teeth are no abnormal that they weren't suitable for that. Scarlet has only one or two molars left on her bad side now (some were missing when we got her and FHB suspects they fell out) but they seem to have stabilised and don't grow because they're not healthy teeth (they will likely fall out at some point) so whilst healthy teeth need another tooth to work against, if the teeth are that bad it doesn't always matter if there isn't one because they might not be growing anyway.
FHB is surprisingly cheap too. We had to pay £65 for the first referral but the actual dental costs were cheaper than our own vet and we usually pay less than £150 including meds and an overnight stay for both buns for 2 nights. The first time it was more because we had x-rays done and that was £50 to £60.
Scarlet has always been ok afterwards and is usually back eating nuggets and hay within 24 hours but she doesn't actually eat on the bad side of her mouth anyway. She has no ongoing issues with not having many molars on one side and eats fine except that she eats more slowly.
I would consult FHB and see what she says. It may be that she can remove some teeth and reduce the ongoing dental frequency.

Jack's-Jane said:

I would not agree to surgery to remove all of or most of a Rabbits MOLAR teeth

It would be a massive operation risking jaw fractures, a huge amount of post operative pain, risk of infection/abscesses

Then there would be the likelyhood of ongoing gut problems due to the fact that the Rabbit would be unable to eat an appropriate diet ever again

For me personally it is in the 'just because it may be technically possible to do it, it is not necessarily ethically correct to do it' category. A step too far for a Rabbit in my care.

But that opinion may not be shared with everyone

Good luck for whatever you decide.

I would opt for the 'Dentals when needed'

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This

RedFraggle said:

Hi Cari. I would recommend getting up to Harrogate to see Francis Harcourt Brown. We were in this situation with Scarlet, our vet was doing an agressive dental every 10 to 12 weeks and he referred us to FHB. Scarlet has appaling molars but only on one side of her mouth, they grow at odd angles and are brown and mottled and have a rough surface. The other side of the mouth is fine which sounds a bit different to your situation.
FHB has removed some of the problem teeth in two separate procedures and Scarlet hasn't had a dental now for 6 months *touches wood*. FHB also uses the technique where they remove the pulp from the teeth to stop them growing but Scarlets teeth are no abnormal that they weren't suitable for that. Scarlet has only one or two molars left on her bad side now (some were missing when we got her and FHB suspects they fell out) but they seem to have stabilised and don't grow because they're not healthy teeth (they will likely fall out at some point) so whilst healthy teeth need another tooth to work against, if the teeth are that bad it doesn't always matter if there isn't one because they might not be growing anyway.
FHB is surprisingly cheap too. We had to pay £65 for the first referral but the actual dental costs were cheaper than our own vet and we usually pay less than £150 including meds and an overnight stay for both buns for 2 nights. The first time it was more because we had x-rays done and that was £50 to £60.
Scarlet has always been ok afterwards and is usually back eating nuggets and hay within 24 hours but she doesn't actually eat on the bad side of her mouth anyway. She has no ongoing issues with not having many molars on one side and eats fine except that she eats more slowly.
I would consult FHB and see what she says. It may be that she can remove some teeth and reduce the ongoing dental frequency.

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sounds like a good option!

I've had two buns who needed regular dentals. I did take Milly to see David Crosby re: removing one particularly bad molar but he said all were bad. I wasn't very impressed with him ti be honest. My vet burrs down her teeth-not too low but enough to slow the teeth growth to give longer between each dental. Milly lasts a good couple of months now and had previously been down to pain within one week. She's also had abscesses from her teeth which have come out on her throat by her jugular which have been pretty awful.
The way I see it is between dentals Milly has a great life. She's feisty and very loving and loyal especially to Rupert bun. The dentals do knock her for that day and she's a bit wobbly the next but she's then fine again. She eats normal food and veggies and is a joy to know. I realise there may come a time when she's too frail/old for dentals but we'll cross that bridge then. Dodgy teeth are not and must not be a death sentence.

bunniesgalore said:

I've had two buns who needed regular dentals. I did take Milly to see David Crosby re: removing one particularly bad molar but he said all were bad. I wasn't very impressed with him ti be honest. My vet burrs down her teeth-not too low but enough to slow the teeth growth to give longer between each dental. Milly lasts a good couple of months now and had previously been down to pain within one week. She's also had abscesses from her teeth which have come out on her throat by her jugular which have been pretty awful.
The way I see it is between dentals Milly has a great life. She's feisty and very loving and loyal especially to Rupert bun. The dentals do knock her for that day and she's a bit wobbly the next but she's then fine again. She eats normal food and veggies and is a joy to know. I realise there may come a time when she's too frail/old for dentals but we'll cross that bridge then. Dodgy teeth are not and must not be a death sentence.

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of couse notMany buns have dental issues. But with love and care we deal with them as much as we can
After the first time to the vet for a dental we had a wonderful year with my bunny and I'm grateful for every day of it

Last April I had my dental bun Bonnie pts. She needed dentals every month sometimes every three weeks from September 2011-April 2012. She had previously not had dental issues but in her old age and all of a sudden she began to display the symptoms. She had two particularly troublesome molars which caused her pain, dribbling, and turned her off her food and playtime. I'll never know if I did the right thing. Should I have had her pts sooner or kept her alive with constant ops.

However I think the best way to approach this is by considering quality of life and recovery. For example, Bonnie would bounce back from her ops and act like a normal bun on the same day, she would eat and play again, her fur would grow back and she was happy. So she was robust and recovered well. That was an encouraging factor. Secondly She had more good days than bad days meaning she had quality of life the majority of the time. In the end the bad began to outweigh the good hence my decision to pts.

We too considered molar removal briefly but the vet explained the risks such as jaw shattering, molars growing back and so on and I felt that was too much to put Bonnie through. Towards the end we concentrated on making sure she has as much happiness as possible. Bonnie was nearly 8 years old, so I don't think many vets would have continued to operate on her as she advanced in her years. I think a vet is more likely to try and give a young bun the chance. Also Bonnie needed dentals more often towards the end and I think you have to consider the cost. For us it was between £40 and £60 a time which is a lot of money when added up. Naturally I felt it was worth it but a vet might bring that up too as factor against constant dentals.

Its really hard to know as each bun copes differently and some buns on here have lived for years and had constant dentals and they do really well. So I think your best bet is to examine her quality of life and see if you can measure her happiness and comfort.


ETA have to add buns with missing teeth might find it harder to keep up a natural diet chewing hay and grass. A mushy porridge style diet sometimes has to be fed in those cases. For me that was another off putting factor for molar extraction as I wanted Bonnie to have as natural a life as possible.

I would go with dentals as needed.
Grim has needed dentals for years. He has once had an issue with general anaesthetic where he stopped breathing but my fantastic vet brought him back to life and he's not had an issue since.

However his teeth have started to fall out over the years. Now he only has a couple left and his diet is so restricted. He can't eat hay or and greens. He can only have pellets soaked in water, bread soaked in water and porridge oats soaked in water. So his day to day diet is just pellets. He doesn't have a healthy stomach because there is no way to get enough fibre in his diet. Even with pro fibre pellets is just not enough to make a difference. And I am very restricted to what pellets he has as only some soak up water well.

Also removing the teeth can be dangerous and crack the jaw. And as well as that you don't know what a rabbit will feel like if they suddenly wake up with no teeth. If they can't eat hay or greens it's possible they might not want to eat anything else and then you could have stasis issues.

Poppy is a massive dental bun.. Although she managed to keep her teeth at a good length for over a year before needing another dental. She is a sneezy bun and 5 years old. She has had 2 front teeth removed and one fell out, her back ones are in tact but she did have one removed, I think it's grown back though from what the vet said. She can't eat hay, so has half soggy, half hard pellets. The science selective mature has been fantastic for her.

We usually take Leo for a dental every 6 months, he has sharp spurs form. I don't worry about him at all though, he's 6.

We have and have had dental buns, and would look at every other option before considering such a massive op as removing molars.

We have found that the interval between dentals can be quite variable depending on how thoroughly the dental was done and how much hay and other rough fibre is eaten. Willow is quite sensitive to spurs and will show symptoms with only small spurs but since we switched him to a hay and forage diet (rather than hay, veggies and pellets - done for Goose's tummy) we're getting much longer intervals between dentals - I think we're well over a year since the last one when previous intervals were 9-12 months.

We have noticed for him and Dill that as they have got older it takes them longer to recover from the GA and get eating enthusiastically again.

I don't know whether it is an option for the problems that your girl has but it is possible (with a suitably experienced vet) to have a 'conscious dental' - done with light sedation I believe. The nearest I know of that I would trust to do this (and we have taken Willow there in the past) are at Gamston Vets for Pets on the edge of Nottingham.

Thanks everyone, I'm working nights so only just woken up and a bit dazed still but I am reading your replies. Some fantastic advice. Will definitely consider speaking to FHB and care what she thinks and your advice has given me more insight into dentals and the operation which is really helpful, I didn't know it could be so potentially damaging to her. Gamston is only 40 minutes from us so a conscious dental as she gets older may be a good idea, will also discuss it with our vets as she is very good with bunnies. thank you everyone.