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Please help me- it's all going wrong
- Thread starter Sky-O
- Start date
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Honey Monster
Young Bun
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=484 and http://www.friendsofrabbits.org/FoR/public_html/health/gi_stasis.htm
I just googled, no idea at all if it will help, really hope you're bunny is ok
... is this for your vet?
natsusakura
Warren Veteran
natsusakura
Warren Veteran
The fluids are supposed to help the 'mass/blockage' pass easier, as if it becomes dehydrated it's harder to pass.
Sorry I can't give you a site.
The general idea is.
a) With rabbits, there is usually asymptomatic gut slow down before gut block happens. They do their best to kick start it by eating more fibre & slightly less nutrient but sacrifice drinking. So the ingesta is thicker & more likely to block to start with. Also there's less fluid in the circulation = they're dehydrated to start with.
b) During the normal digestive process vast amounts of fluids are secreted into the upper digestive tract, (in us the ingesta is now almost like brown unwhipped cream). This fluid isn't absorbed until right at the bottom end.
c) Block or partial block is intensely painful - the effect on rabbit gut is to virtually stop movement throughout.
d) So no fluid is being absorbed from the bottom end, but fluid continues to go in at the top end.
e) So fluid is being rapidly lost from the circulation into the gut, but slows as the rabbit gets more "dehydrated".
f) They are now in a position of what is called "hypovolaemic shock". Low circulating volume causes a fall in BP & all blood is diverted away from non essential organs eg gut & skin. Bunny feels very cold.
g) If fluids are given under the skin they are rapidly absorbed into the circulation reversing the hypovolaemic shock very quickly. More fluid can now pour into the gut, soften the stuck ingesta, & allow it to move on.
Does that make sense or is it as "clear as mud"?
ETA hypovolaemic shock is very serious - in humans it leads to kidney failure even after corrected, massive outpouring of adrenalin, heart dysrythmias & rapid death.
Hypovolaemia essentailly means that the circulating total blood volume is low.
The general idea is.
a) With rabbits, there is usually asymptomatic gut slow down before gut block happens. They do their best to kick start it by eating more fibre & slightly less nutrient but sacrifice drinking. So the ingesta is thicker & more likely to block to start with. Also there's less fluid in the circulation = they're dehydrated to start with.
b) During the normal digestive process vast amounts of fluids are secreted into the upper digestive tract, (in us the ingesta is now almost like brown unwhipped cream). This fluid isn't absorbed until right at the bottom end.
c) Block or partial block is intensely painful - the effect on rabbit gut is to virtually stop movement throughout.
d) So no fluid is being absorbed from the bottom end, but fluid continues to go in at the top end.
e) So fluid is being rapidly lost from the circulation into the gut, but slows as the rabbit gets more "dehydrated".
f) They are now in a position of what is called "hypovolaemic shock". Low circulating volume causes a fall in BP & all blood is diverted away from non essential organs eg gut & skin. Bunny feels very cold.
g) If fluids are given under the skin they are rapidly absorbed into the circulation reversing the hypovolaemic shock very quickly. More fluid can now pour into the gut, soften the stuck ingesta, & allow it to move on.
Does that make sense or is it as "clear as mud"?
ETA hypovolaemic shock is very serious - in humans it leads to kidney failure even after corrected, massive outpouring of adrenalin, heart dysrythmias & rapid death.
Hypovolaemia essentailly means that the circulating total blood volume is low.
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Thanks guys. So much.
I've been disappointed with my vets this time. Sandy has a partial blockage and has been at the vets for 36 hours (and counting). I've been saying from the word go was 'can we please give her fluids' and 'can we please treat her aggressively with fluids'. From the first and newly qualified vet she told me that Sandy was not dehydrated so she wasn't worried about that, so I did my best to explain why fluids were needed (essentially to rehydrate that which has gone manky and stuck in her gut). Sandy had 60mls for the first 24 hours split into 3 sets of 20mls. Today, as far as I know (from when I saw her at 4pm) she had had one lot of 20mls despite me saying another three times today (to a different vet and two other different vet nurses) that we needed to treat her aggressively with fluids. So now I need to ensure they hear. A figured maybe literature might be a way to do this. From what I've read (Dana Kremples article-but her biomiami version), as a 1.7kg rabbit, she should be having around/at least 170mls per day.
She's not eating much at all, and they have separated her from Roger; neither are coping with that at all. She ate her only mouthfuls of the day when I decided to put them back together. Again, I explained why they need to be together but was told they need to monitor her intake and output, which I can understand, but eqaully it's hindering her recovery. Her everything has been x-rayed and she has had a dental. No signs of tooth root abscesses. Sign of a mass (but a mass inside her intestine which looked like something ingested). Her mass is not moving, however her gut has not completely stopped. She is not eating by choice but is being force fed. She is also on gut stimulants- the Metaclopramide seems to be what helps her most. She's also on very heavy pain relief obviously.
I don't feel this is right at all. I'm going to ask them to consult the specialists tomorrow, but if I bring her home tomorrow then potentially she'll be back in on Thursday because nothing has changed from when she was admitted. However, had she had aggressive fluid therapy in the first 24 hours I believe she may even be home now.
I don't like not trusting my vet but my gut instinct is shouting all over the place. I don't know how to make them hear me. I don't know how to make her ok. I'm scared for her. I can't think straight but I need her to be ok. How do I make her ok?
I've been disappointed with my vets this time. Sandy has a partial blockage and has been at the vets for 36 hours (and counting). I've been saying from the word go was 'can we please give her fluids' and 'can we please treat her aggressively with fluids'. From the first and newly qualified vet she told me that Sandy was not dehydrated so she wasn't worried about that, so I did my best to explain why fluids were needed (essentially to rehydrate that which has gone manky and stuck in her gut). Sandy had 60mls for the first 24 hours split into 3 sets of 20mls. Today, as far as I know (from when I saw her at 4pm) she had had one lot of 20mls despite me saying another three times today (to a different vet and two other different vet nurses) that we needed to treat her aggressively with fluids. So now I need to ensure they hear. A figured maybe literature might be a way to do this. From what I've read (Dana Kremples article-but her biomiami version), as a 1.7kg rabbit, she should be having around/at least 170mls per day.
She's not eating much at all, and they have separated her from Roger; neither are coping with that at all. She ate her only mouthfuls of the day when I decided to put them back together. Again, I explained why they need to be together but was told they need to monitor her intake and output, which I can understand, but eqaully it's hindering her recovery. Her everything has been x-rayed and she has had a dental. No signs of tooth root abscesses. Sign of a mass (but a mass inside her intestine which looked like something ingested). Her mass is not moving, however her gut has not completely stopped. She is not eating by choice but is being force fed. She is also on gut stimulants- the Metaclopramide seems to be what helps her most. She's also on very heavy pain relief obviously.
I don't feel this is right at all. I'm going to ask them to consult the specialists tomorrow, but if I bring her home tomorrow then potentially she'll be back in on Thursday because nothing has changed from when she was admitted. However, had she had aggressive fluid therapy in the first 24 hours I believe she may even be home now.
I don't like not trusting my vet but my gut instinct is shouting all over the place. I don't know how to make them hear me. I don't know how to make her ok. I'm scared for her. I can't think straight but I need her to be ok. How do I make her ok?
natsusakura
Warren Veteran
Print off the stuff. Ask them to call a specialist. I'll speak to my vet tomorrow as well and see what she says.
In regards to them seperating the buns can you explain to them that she wont eat without him?
Angel stopped eating when parsley went to the vets the day before her.
Surely they should realise it's better to have her in?
I wonder if she'd be better with you nursing her?
I dunno if syinging fluids in the mouth is better than sub Q's.
*hugs* you are doing all you can chick. Sending vibes. xxxx
In regards to them seperating the buns can you explain to them that she wont eat without him?
Angel stopped eating when parsley went to the vets the day before her.
Surely they should realise it's better to have her in?
I wonder if she'd be better with you nursing her?
I dunno if syinging fluids in the mouth is better than sub Q's.
*hugs* you are doing all you can chick. Sending vibes. xxxx
natsusakura
Warren Veteran
Is there another bunny savvy vet near you that you can go to?
Bunny Buddy
Wise Old Thumper
I don't have any useful advice as you know far more than me but I just wanted to wish you well. I can't believe I'm reading how much trouble you're having getting them to give her the treatment you request, I know that will be distressing on a much bigger scale than this one incident. I hope they come good tomorrow and that she shows improvement very soon.
Thanks natsusakura.
I also wondered about nursing her at home but she is getting meds there that they won't let me have here to give her. I can and do inject but it wasn't seen as an option. They do have a nurse on site 24/7 and she is checked and fed regularly throughout the night and yes, I could do that, but I'm so worried about the syringe feeding making her worse and if it does there, then at least they are able to access medical stuff straight away. I would have to travel 20 mins back to them.
These are the best vets in the area. Neither of the vets treating her are my chosen vets though. Had I not gone in and read all her notes I would have thought they were giving the fluids because they said they would. The specialist is an hour away. She's such a terrible traveller that would probably kill her right now. So I need to try and get my vets to liaise with those vets, if I can.
You're right. 18 months ago I just knew Autumn's admittance and subsequent dental wasn't what he needed. It took me 10 months to prove those vets right when he was diagnosed with dysautonomia. I don't have 10 months this time and each minute she is suffering more and more.
I just keep crying. I've been crying on and off all evening.
I can't reach anyone now but I have to hope she makes it through the night. I'm going to have to really fight tomorrow.
If I don't have good vets then I can't have my rabbits. Then what.
I also wondered about nursing her at home but she is getting meds there that they won't let me have here to give her. I can and do inject but it wasn't seen as an option. They do have a nurse on site 24/7 and she is checked and fed regularly throughout the night and yes, I could do that, but I'm so worried about the syringe feeding making her worse and if it does there, then at least they are able to access medical stuff straight away. I would have to travel 20 mins back to them.
These are the best vets in the area. Neither of the vets treating her are my chosen vets though. Had I not gone in and read all her notes I would have thought they were giving the fluids because they said they would. The specialist is an hour away. She's such a terrible traveller that would probably kill her right now. So I need to try and get my vets to liaise with those vets, if I can.
You're right. 18 months ago I just knew Autumn's admittance and subsequent dental wasn't what he needed. It took me 10 months to prove those vets right when he was diagnosed with dysautonomia. I don't have 10 months this time and each minute she is suffering more and more.
I just keep crying. I've been crying on and off all evening.
I can't reach anyone now but I have to hope she makes it through the night. I'm going to have to really fight tomorrow.
If I don't have good vets then I can't have my rabbits. Then what.
Jack's-Jane
Wise Old Thumper
Here are a couple more links which may be useful to.....ermmmmm.........discuss with the Vets:
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/PhysicalTraumatic/AcuteGIT_ObstructionRabbits.htm
There are two Webinars by Molly Varga on here, one about Gastrointestinal Disorders (full explanation re importance of fluids given) and the same again on the one about 'Critical Care of the Rabbit'
http://thewebinarvet.com/supreme-rabbit-webinars/
Giving Lactulose alongside fluid therapy may be beneficial
I really hope that Sandy will respond to treatment.
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/PhysicalTraumatic/AcuteGIT_ObstructionRabbits.htm
There are two Webinars by Molly Varga on here, one about Gastrointestinal Disorders (full explanation re importance of fluids given) and the same again on the one about 'Critical Care of the Rabbit'
http://thewebinarvet.com/supreme-rabbit-webinars/
Giving Lactulose alongside fluid therapy may be beneficial
I really hope that Sandy will respond to treatment.
OK I think one of the most important things for her health is to see if we can get her back with Roger.
(I've seen loving attention from a bonded partner help a bun to turn the corner so many times)
"She only ate the dandelion leaf when Roger was there".
OK can you find something like a plastic (sandwich) box which she can lie in, & which will let Roger groom her, but stop him getting in with her? It would need to be quite shallow so he can reach her face.
If the vet is measuring urine by weight, you can pad it out with something, eg straw usually lets the wee drip through well, or an old towel to fit. I don't think she'll be moving around very much with a blockage & will probably wee where she is.
Tomorrow, ask how much wee she's passed. The vet herself should know to up the fluids if urine volume has dropped off (early sign of hypovolaemia/dehydration)
3 lots of 30 ml = 90ml for a 1.7 K bun should keep her ticking over volume wise.
What can you do? You would have to ask your vets permission. If she has gut movement, try Slippery elm bark which can be bought at most healthfood shops. Make into a smooth paste, let it stand at least an hour, then feed.
It contains a lot of mucilage (but needs to be fully hydrated) It soothes & coats the gut & is a good lubricant which allows water to penetrate easily. She'll soon get the hang of it as it makes her feel more comfortable. Even if it doesn't get as far as the blockage it will ease the pain from acid static in her stomach.
Your vet is right to want to assess urine output. Buns show no signs of low fluid volume apart from this, for ages. (It's the only way I could assess Thumper. He shocked a vet rigid, didn't even have a dry mouth, & soaked up 70ml in 1/2 hour!)
You know how to do it, the calm questions, which both show interest & understanding encouraging her to explain things, trying to understand her viewpoint, & hopefully resulting in a more discussive approach. It's more than difficult when you're worried sick!
Everything crossed for tomorrow -I'll be thinking of you. Please keep us updated.
(I've seen loving attention from a bonded partner help a bun to turn the corner so many times)
"She only ate the dandelion leaf when Roger was there".
OK can you find something like a plastic (sandwich) box which she can lie in, & which will let Roger groom her, but stop him getting in with her? It would need to be quite shallow so he can reach her face.
If the vet is measuring urine by weight, you can pad it out with something, eg straw usually lets the wee drip through well, or an old towel to fit. I don't think she'll be moving around very much with a blockage & will probably wee where she is.
Tomorrow, ask how much wee she's passed. The vet herself should know to up the fluids if urine volume has dropped off (early sign of hypovolaemia/dehydration)
3 lots of 30 ml = 90ml for a 1.7 K bun should keep her ticking over volume wise.
What can you do? You would have to ask your vets permission. If she has gut movement, try Slippery elm bark which can be bought at most healthfood shops. Make into a smooth paste, let it stand at least an hour, then feed.
It contains a lot of mucilage (but needs to be fully hydrated) It soothes & coats the gut & is a good lubricant which allows water to penetrate easily. She'll soon get the hang of it as it makes her feel more comfortable. Even if it doesn't get as far as the blockage it will ease the pain from acid static in her stomach.
Your vet is right to want to assess urine output. Buns show no signs of low fluid volume apart from this, for ages. (It's the only way I could assess Thumper. He shocked a vet rigid, didn't even have a dry mouth, & soaked up 70ml in 1/2 hour!)
You know how to do it, the calm questions, which both show interest & understanding encouraging her to explain things, trying to understand her viewpoint, & hopefully resulting in a more discussive approach. It's more than difficult when you're worried sick!
Everything crossed for tomorrow -I'll be thinking of you. Please keep us updated.
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So sorry to hear about this. I cannot offer anything practical but millions of vibes for Sandy.
I know the frustration. Our emergency vets twice refused to let our bonded Mr B and Cutie-pie stay together. Second time resulted in a broken bond. Was a likely outcome at sometime, as Mr B had a history of broken bonds, but really not helped by the forced separation. I still remember trying to push for them to be together and being made to feel foolish and really doubt myself.
Hugs. xxx
I cannot offer anything practical but millions of vibes for Sandy.I know the frustration. Our emergency vets twice refused to let our bonded Mr B and Cutie-pie stay together. Second time resulted in a broken bond. Was a likely outcome at sometime, as Mr B had a history of broken bonds, but really not helped by the forced separation. I still remember trying to push for them to be together and being made to feel foolish and really doubt myself.
Hugs. xxx
RogerRabbit999
Mama Doe
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RogerRabbit999
Mama Doe
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littleblacky
Mama Doe
Are you a Christian? I am! I'll also be praying for Sandy.
natsusakura
Warren Veteran
Get the vet to call the specialist, they Can then treat according to what the specialist says. Just say to your vet that you want to do everything you can.
If she can get her guy in with her it sounds as though that will be the first step, what about some fresh forage to tempt her to eat while she's with him?
I've always found there is a marked difference in the size shape and colour of poos in my buns when one isn't well. They should be able to tell the difference even if they're in same area.
Thinking of you. xx
Hoping the vets will be easy to sway also.
If she can get her guy in with her it sounds as though that will be the first step, what about some fresh forage to tempt her to eat while she's with him?
I've always found there is a marked difference in the size shape and colour of poos in my buns when one isn't well. They should be able to tell the difference even if they're in same area.
Thinking of you. xx
Hoping the vets will be easy to sway also.
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