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Tinsel
18-11-2012, 09:36 AM
The combination of nebulising and returning to septrin has definitely helped Mulberry, who is now biting, scratching and trashing the kitchen, just as she used to... :love:

When nebulising I often seem to have liquid left over, though. Can I top this up to use next time or must it always be fresh?

If nebulising is good for buns - as it seems to be - I don't understand why my vet only recommended using it three times a day and only for ten minutes per time. Am I missing something here? :?

Currently I'm covering her carrier with towels - would plastic be better?

Sorry for all the questions! This is all new to me...

Santa
18-11-2012, 09:44 AM
What are you nebulising with? I used to use f10 with Santa and we did it for 20 mins twice a day -f10 kills bacteria very quickly on contact but it needs 15 mins contact time to destroy fungi, yeasts and moulds so we plumped for 20 in the hope that gave enough contact time via the nebuliser to kill anything off.

The more 'air tight' (but obviously not completely!) and less absorbent you can get the carrier the better it will be, as they are breathing it passively so need a good build up of mist for maximum effect.

I guess frequency/length will vary depending on whether it is just the spray which is helping or whether you are also using something bactericidal/fungicidal in there.

Tinsel
18-11-2012, 09:50 AM
That's brilliant - thank you. :wave:

I'm using F10 but have only been leaving her in for 10-15 mins, so will up it to 20 as we have no idea what we're dealing with re fungus etc.

Will also use plastic sheeting - would that be safe for 20 mins if I leave some small air holes?

Santa
18-11-2012, 10:13 AM
I think it's pretty trial and error really, you probably won't need extra air holes as the sheeting won't seal it completely. I used to do it in a Tupperware box with a hold for the nebuliser inlet and no others. There was enough air gap that it wasn't totally sealed but enabled a good build up of mist.

Looking at the f10 data sheet it can take up to 30 mins to destroy some viruses, so if bun is tolerating it well, it might be worth keep going for as long as you can.

thumps_
18-11-2012, 10:31 AM
That's brilliant - thank you. :wave:

I'm using F10 but have only been leaving her in for 10-15 mins, so will up it to 20 as we have no idea what we're dealing with re fungus etc.

Will also use plastic sheeting - would that be safe for 20 mins if I leave some small air holes?

Yes, because the nebuliser is forcing air into the compartment as well as mist.

The whole key to snuffles is getting the secretions runny, so they can pour out of the sinuses where ABx can't reach them. A nebuliser is great for this.
F10 is great during a relapse. An additional way to make secretions runny is a pinch of bisolvon daily.
I also add a pinch of echinacea powder, which really helps to stop the immune system suppression by stress. ABx are nothing like as effective where there is immune suppression.

At long last I'm getting used to Benjie. If he's not being a normal young rabbit "live wire" I presume he's in pain from a blocked sinus. He then gets metacam daily, to reduce both pain & swelling.

There's another good reason to get the secretions runny. They can sneeze them out much more easily, & don't get so distressed by a blocked nose. ;)

Tinsel
18-11-2012, 10:57 AM
Thank you both so much :wave:

Am already using bisolvon and some rather old echinacea tincture I found in a cupboard - will buy some powder - is there a stockist you'd recommend?

Mulberry seems fine in the nebuliser so will keep her in for thirty minutes at a time - am also looking at more efficient ways of sealing the carrier. The last two times I've used it a lot of discharge has come out of the eye that's blocked by a huge nodule - hopefully this is a good sign.....

Is it safe to carry the liquid over or does it need to be fresh each time?

Also, would piriton help her? I think Santa used it before, unless I'm dreaming? :?

Again, sorry for all the questions..

Fee
18-11-2012, 11:01 AM
Could you use clingfilm round the carrier?

Good luck

Tinsel
18-11-2012, 11:05 AM
Hmm... I reckon it would work but don't have any in the house. The carrier is mainly solid though so was going to cut out rectangles of polythene sheeting and tape those over the small-ish air vents... I'll experiment!

Thank you! :wave:

Santa
18-11-2012, 11:27 AM
Also, would piriton help her? I think Santa used it before, unless I'm dreaming? :?


No you're not dreaming! We used children's piriton syrup for Santa because a cytology test from her nasal secretions showed high levels of the inflammatory cells produced in response to allergens (can't remember what they're called, sorry), so I'm not sure if it would be helpful in this case - might be worth asking your vet and seeing what they think though.

thumps_
18-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Santa would the allergy cells be eosinophils?

Where to get them? :oops: Personally, I get them from an excellent, small independant village pharmacy who have them made up for them.:oops: I'm still trying to ask the owner which company he uses, & whether the company will send to other chemists. Enquiries resume tomorrow.:)

More:oops: I wouldn't save any left overs of nebuliser fluid. There's always a potential risk of resistant bacteria settling in there, & that's the last thing we want.

As for covering the carrier, I know of 1 RUer who just drapes a large towel over the carrier & tucks it in well.

Yes, it's an excellent sign that the discharge is moving out of the tear duct. I've long suspected that infected tear ducts were another source of reinfection with snuffles.
If you look at # 345 the drops are tiacil. It's quite a good thread to get ideas about what a few of us are doing. http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?340086-Snuffle-bunny-thread&p=5619747#post5619747

Tinsel
18-11-2012, 01:17 PM
Thank you both again! :wave:

Do let me know if the echinacea is available online; fingers crossed.....


Sounds as if piriton may help but not necessarily.. will ask vet but he's now on hol for two weeks... :evil:


I will ask my other vet for tiacil. M is currently on fucithalmic acid; is tiacil administered the same way?

M is currently having 30 mins of nebulising. She always seems livelier after it so hopefully a long session will really help her. I've sealed the carrier vents quite firmly and it doesn't look as if steam is escaping so hopefully it will be more effective....

thumps_
18-11-2012, 02:36 PM
Thank you both again! :wave:

Do let me know if the echinacea is available online; fingers crossed.....


Sounds as if piriton may help but not necessarily.. will ask vet but he's now on hol for two weeks... :evil:


I will ask my other vet for tiacil. M is currently on fucithalmic acid; is tiacil administered the same way?

M is currently having 30 mins of nebulising. She always seems livelier after it so hopefully a long session will really help her. I've sealed the carrier vents quite firmly and it doesn't look as if steam is escaping so hopefully it will be more effective....

Yes it's administered directly into the lower eye lid.
Both fucithalmic acid (fucidin) & tiacil (gentamycin) are antibiotics. Although tiacil is effective against more types of bacteria, if the fucidin is working, I'd stick with it, then should it lose its efficacy (get bacterial resistance) you've got the tiacil in reserve.;)

The drops are working in 2 ways. The added liquid is helping to thin down the discharge so it can move out of the tear duct. If it's coming out at the top end there's always a possibilty that the tear duct is blocked by a thick lump of pus or swelling. Only time will tell whether she needs a tear duct flush. The thinner we can get the pus, the better the chances of a flush being effective.
(We always refer to getting pus out of the body as "draining/drainage" As you know, rabbit pus is really thick & difficult to shift)

I think it's great that she's livelier after nebulising.
Sorry my brain isn't in gear today! You have another option for nebulising, to use together with, but at separate times from F10. - saline. It's mildly antiseptic, but also great for thinning down mucus.

I hope I've explained why I use this different approach to snuffles right at the beginning.
Human's are't much different in the fundamental approach. If the immune system is scuppered eg AIDS or therapeutic immune suppression, our back is really against the wall treating any infection. I've always been surprised that rabbits respond so badly to ABx in comparison, until I realised that they stress so easily.

Again in humans it's almost worthless giving ABx unless we're draining the pus, the infection will just recur immediately ABx are stopped, if we manage to get to that stage at all. "If there's pus let it out". Again that's much more difficult in rabbits.

May I ask a kindness of you? If you can get F10 easily, Biscand matt1 can't get it any more, & it really helps her buns. Can you find out the manufacturer from your vet & drop her a pm?

Tinsel
18-11-2012, 03:54 PM
Yes it's administered directly into the lower eye lid.
Both fucithalmic acid (fucidin) & tiacil (gentamycin) are antibiotics. Although tiacil is effective against more types of bacteria, if the fucidin is working, I'd stick with it, then should it lose its efficacy (get bacterial resistance) you've got the tiacil in reserve.;)

The drops are working in 2 ways. The added liquid is helping to thin down the discharge so it can move out of the tear duct. If it's coming out at the top end there's always a possibilty that the tear duct is blocked by a thick lump of pus or swelling. Only time will tell whether she needs a tear duct flush. The thinner we can get the pus, the better the chances of a flush being effective.
(We always refer to getting pus out of the body as "draining/drainage" As you know, rabbit pus is really thick & difficult to shift)

I think it's great that she's livelier after nebulising.
Sorry my brain isn't in gear today! You have another option for nebulising, to use together with, but at separate times from F10. - saline. It's mildly antiseptic, but also great for thinning down mucus.

I hope I've explained why I use this different approach to snuffles right at the beginning.
Human's are't much different in the fundamental approach. If the immune system is scuppered eg AIDS or therapeutic immune suppression, our back is really against the wall treating any infection. I've always been surprised that rabbits respond so badly to ABx in comparison, until I realised that they stress so easily.

Again in humans it's almost worthless giving ABx unless we're draining the pus, the infection will just recur immediately ABx are stopped, if we manage to get to that stage at all. "If there's pus let it out". Again that's much more difficult in rabbits.

May I ask a kindness of you? If you can get F10 easily, Biscand matt1 can't get it any more, & it really helps her buns. Can you find out the manufacturer from your vet & drop her a pm?

Thank you - will bear all of this in mind. My vet told me to put 1ml of F10 in 5 mls of saline - is that not right?

I will certainly ask about the F10 manufacturer. My vet is away for a fortnight but I would think they can find out at reeption anyway...

Will mention tiacil and maybe get some on standby. Mulberry seems to have a big lump of pus now in the lower corner of her eyelid - can they flush while conscious? She gets quite stressed even when I dab at it with damp cotton wool. :?

Santa
18-11-2012, 04:14 PM
:wave: I buy my F10 online from here:

http://www.mah-shop.co.uk/disinfectant-products-33-c.asp

thumps_
18-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Thank you Santa. I'll pass on the info. Biscand matt1 will be delighted.

Tinsel. I've looked at the echinacea products. The preparation is crucial for the efficacy.
The best preparation I can find is http://www.evidencia-australia.com/p/1152903/Natural-Factors-Echinamide---Echinacea-Goldenseal-mg-Caps.html?utm_source=myshopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Vitamins+and+Nutrition&utm_term=Natural+Factors+Echinamide+Echinacea+Gold enseal+450+mg+90+C

I note it says that shipping is free! The conversion from Australian$ to uk£ is $0.65 :£1.00.

I'm really shocked by the prices on the net.
The capsules that I get are low strength, which is better for rabbits. 210mg of 4:1 extract echinacea = 825mg natural herb. Price for 60 =£5.44 pm me if you'd like me to semd some.

thumps_
19-11-2012, 03:49 PM
Tinsel I forgot to say that I also find the eye discharge sticks like superglue, but it comes off easily after nebulisation. I just wrap some lint round my finger & stroke it off.;)

Jaysmonkey
19-11-2012, 05:16 PM
F10 made Lola worse when we nebulised her. We used Isotonic water, parvolex and gentamicin and this was a winning combination. I always discarded any left over residue, but then I always had very little. I'm not sure I'd reuse it.

mandifer
19-11-2012, 08:37 PM
F10 solution keeps ok for several months - I think it actually says on the back of the bottle up to six months? I make up 250ml in a sterile bottle using sterile water and syringe out 7ml at a time to use, then throw away what is left in the nebuliser pot. I don't keep the solution for more than a few weeks - if it has not all been used in that time I throw it out and make fresh *just in case*.

I think this is the link (http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/as.html) for the actual manufacturers of F10 :thumb: I think my vet charged me about £10 for a 100ml bottle.