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still ongoing issues I could cry

blue_vix

Mama Doe
Mine all still seem to be loosing weight :( I don't really know what to do. The vet doesn't seem to know but I'm now going to take them in weekly for weighing. I've done a precautionary treatment for EC. The trouble is other than weight loss they aren't showing any other symptoms. Poo's look really good. The vet said she can't think of anything that would affect a whole group which would cause these symptoms. Obviously also a worry that its hard to keep an eye on individuals.

Vet thought maybe something environmental. I've bleached out the hutch and then thoroughly rinsed several times. Could be the food but I have thrown out what was left of the last bag and stated a new bag from a new supplier. Could have been someone thing in the hay but again, I go through a bale a week and these come from various suppliers. Thrown away all water bottles and started again with new ones. I do have a large colony of wild rabbits in the back garden who could potentially be passing something on. Also seen next doors chickens and next doors cat sat on the rabbit hutch. Temp and weather wise the hutch is in a nicely sheltered position. My mum does have her lawn treated with something to stop moss growing, I asked the guy from the company about it being toxic to animals, he recommended to keep animals off the grass for 24 hrs but I kept them off for two weeks to be on the safe side (plus mum doesn't technically allow them on the lawn).

So vet has suggested we take the one who's the worse which would be Tamsin, who's weight gone down from 2.3KG to 1.7KG in 12 weeks, and redo all the tests we already did on Terrah that didn't show anything :( I'm wondering if to ask for a referral up to FHB or atleast maybe seek her advice? Money is still an issue though. I could now afford to insure them but I'm guessing non of these issues would be covered as they will see it as a pre-existing condition.

ETA I know it's too soon to know if the panacur has worked. I'm not sure how long, if it has worked, it will take for them to start gaining weight. I'm just scared by time we know it will be too late if it hasn't worked.
 
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So the only symptom is weight loss? No other changes?

What are you feeding them? Rabbit's nutrient needs can vary a lot depending on exercise, weather etc. and the nutritional content of hay can also vary depending on when it was cut, how long it was stored, type of grass etc. So you can be feeding the same amount of food as was perfectly fine one month, and it not have enough nutrition the next.

I would mix in some higher protein pellets eg one aimed at young growing rabbits or add in some rolled oats to their feed (I prefer to mix these with water if feeding more than a teaspoon per bunny). You could also try adding some alfalfa to their usual hay. These all will up their calorie count - even if it's not diet related it should help them put on and maintain weight which would help any underlying issue to.
 
I haven't any answers but didn't want to read and run.

I don't know if the possibility of a link between weight loss and EC would be down to *possible* kidney damage but I'm wondering if that would affect a whole group at once? EC can be in the background waiting for the rabbit to be weakened in some way before it takes hold, just wondering if it would affect them all in the same way at the same time? I could be talking rubbish there, just thinking out loud really... so if I were in your shoes environmental *something* makes more sense ... but you've looked at all the options to :cry::cry: I really don't know but a referral does sound like a good option. I hope you manage to find the answer and even better a cure.
 
The other symptom Terrah had was incontinence, which is very difficult to monitor in the group, but certainly non of them have wee'd on me or had and signs of urine scald. The issues started around the time I moved from Darlington to Hull, and where initially marked down to the stress of the move and the bond.

I'm feeding A&P natural rabbit pellets, which I keep gradually upping but being careful not to over do it as they do tend to stop eating hay. I can't feed excel as this makes Buttons get soft poops, and I can't feed a muesli as Bobby selectively eats and then gets soft poops. I used to feed SS but can't really afford that at the min. I could maybe see about changing over on to hay for pets hay but that's going to be difficult money wise too for 7 rabbits.

I'd be able to get hold of some rolled oats as the feed supplier I'm using also does horse feeds etc. I did notice they had in stock a readigrass type product that said it was made from Timothy Hay. I also notice burgess have brought out a new product called 'sensitive' do you think this would be a possibility?

Has the Vet considered HEPATIC Coccidiosis as being a possibility ?

I asked about Coccidiosis and vet said they would have diarrhea? However I didn't say the HEPATIC bit, I'll have a read through the links and maybe print them off to take with me.
 

I've read through this and I think it may definitely be a possibility (although that doesn't necessarily make me feel better as it says it's hard to diagnose and treat). I see it does say mild cases can just have weight loss and no diarrhea and can lead in the long term to kidney and liver problems which would account for Terrah's symptoms. Sadly I couldn't have Terrah post mortem'd because my dad decided to be helpful and put him in the fire with Blixy as I was upset and hadn't moved the body immediately.
 
I think A&P do a 'breeder & grower' pellet which is about 15% protein instead of 12% for the natural pellets. I'm not sure how the prices compare or how sensitive tummies would react - although I'd think it's closer to what they are used to so might be tolerated better.

Rolled oats are often used to put weight on skinny bunnies - I buy from the supermarket where they are called 'porridge oats' but if you've got access I imagine the feed supplier would be cheaper :) Rabbits consider them very tasty but you don't need too much so you might find adding that rather than increasing the pellet quantity will give them the extra calories without the volume filling them up that stops them eating hay. They swell when wet so I tend to soak them in water so they don't dry out the gut.

Alfalfa hay is higher calorie than grass hay, but I couldn't say if the Timothy would be than your current one - I expect there wouldn't be too much in it. The need to a lot of volume in hay to get the calories, so I'd start by adding oats and see if that helps before swapping to something more expensive that problem won't make much difference.
 
I asked about Coccidiosis and vet said they would have diarrhea? However I didn't say the HEPATIC bit, I'll have a read through the links and maybe print them off to take with me.

I have known a situation where bunnies presenting with weight loss as the only symptom turned out to have hepatic coccidiosis - it absolutely does not always present with diarrhoea unlike intestinal cocci and it isn't just mild ones with no diarrhoea with the hepatic form, so it is definitely worth considering. It is possible that stress associated with a move could have triggered its overgrowth if there were a few spores floating around or if one of them has been a long term symptomless carrier. I would perhaps ask for a faecal sample to be tested,although I would add that a negative faecal sample doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't the problem - the situation I knew about presented with negative samples, negative pms and reassurance from the vet that it couldn't be that, it took a pm on a freshly deceased bunny (while the organism was still alive in the liver) to diagnose.

I would perhaps discuss whether it is worth treating them symptomatically, I don't know the ins and outs of the risks associated with the normal meds so dont know whether it is advisable in the absence of a firm diagnosis, but toltrazuril (baycox) I think is the usual med, I know the dose in the fhb textbook is incorrect but the correct dose is floating around out there in plenty of places.

There is a sticky on here somewhere about cocci, worth having a read as it does give you some good advice on how to reduce the 'loading' in the bunnies so would be good to do even if there isn't a firm diagnosis.

Good luck xx
 
I took some information in to the vets with me earlier and she seemed receptive too it. She said shes going to do a bit of research herself and I'm back on thursday (this vet only works two days a week and I decided I'd rather wait a few extra days than have to start again with another vet thinking I'm mad) so fingers crossed there will be some light at the end of the tunnel on thursday.
 
I took some information in to the vets with me earlier and she seemed receptive too it. She said shes going to do a bit of research herself and I'm back on thursday (this vet only works two days a week and I decided I'd rather wait a few extra days than have to start again with another vet thinking I'm mad) so fingers crossed there will be some light at the end of the tunnel on thursday.

I hope so xx
 
I am wondering if your rabbits are in a group, are they eating all the food you are giving them? Something else isn't pinching it? This would account for general weight loss I would imagine.
 
I use Allen and Page natural rabbit pellets for my guys when I feed pellets BECAUSE THEY DON'T GAIN WEIGHT ON THEM! I class them as a diet bunny feed. I have heard many people say their buns lost too much weight, even when feeding them ad lib......

I don't want to brush it off as an easy fix, but I certainly would try another food, if even just a change to the breeders and growers.
Good luck and I truly hope it is something as easy as that:thumb:
 
I use Allen and Page natural rabbit pellets for my guys when I feed pellets BECAUSE THEY DON'T GAIN WEIGHT ON THEM! I class them as a diet bunny feed. I have heard many people say their buns lost too much weight, even when feeding them ad lib......

I don't want to brush it off as an easy fix, but I certainly would try another food, if even just a change to the breeders and growers.
Good luck and I truly hope it is something as easy as that:thumb:

I don't see it as a diet food, but I've been feeding A&P for over a year when I couldn't afford the SS any more. I didn't see any weight loss at that time when I changed over. I have ordered the breeders and growers one and purchased some rolled oats to add in to the food. I know I can't feed Excel or RR and I can't afford SS, I don't think that leaves much else that's within my price range in 'quality feeds'.

I am wondering if your rabbits are in a group, are they eating all the food you are giving them? Something else isn't pinching it? This would account for general weight loss I would imagine.

The only bun who looses out is buttons but when I put the food out she will sometimes go and sit upstairs in the hutch and sulk rather than come down in to the run to eat with the rest, and in that case I give her her own little bowl of food in the hutch. Having said that when she eats with the rest she is the only one who actually sits in the food bowl to stop the others from eating hers. Toby is the fattest but I've never seen him chase the others off. There are mice and rats and stuff around because of the country location but the food doesn't generally last long enough for any other animal to be pinching it.
 
:shock:Just re read my post and realise it looks like I'm shouting:shock:

Sorry I wasn't meaning to:oops:

I was just trying to emphasise my point about my fat rabbits only being allowed it for this reason:lol:
however if you have previously fed it with no problems then it doesn't seem likely it's that.

Good luck though, i do hope something is discovered to help soon:love:
 
So the vet says...

He doesn't think it's HEPATIC Coccidiosis because he says he's seen this before and he thinks in general they would be a lot more 'ill' in themselves. He is going to do a poo floatation test though.

He still thinks EC without neuro symptoms, and that one 28 day course would not eradicate it due to them cross contaminating. He has suggested an ongoing course of Panacur and also a long course of baytril. He mentioned pasutrella ? I can't find anything on a google search that suggests pasturella might manifest as weightloss and kidney failure without snuffles.

Anyway they have all gained weight in the last two weeks. Only around 0.05/0.15 KG but still at least its not a loss. Maybe the panacur they have already had has worked and they are starting to show signs of recovery? I will be taken them in to be weighed fortnightly (and of course if I'm worried). I'm not sure when I will find out about the poo floatation. I need to take some samples in tomorrow because they hadn't done enough in their travel case. He said he wants a big handful :shock:
 
Fab news on the weight gain:thumb:

It might only be a little bit, but those little bits add up and at least you know that despite any diagnosis their bodies are able to gain weight:thumb:

I know if sheep have cocci, in bad cases they never grow, never put lost weight back on and remain frail despite the best food, so I think this is a really really good sign:thumb::thumb:
 
Entracare?

I wonder if Entracare might help?
... hit by a mystery stomach problem in his rabbits,at a loss to know what to do and having been to his vet with no succes he contacted Lou Bevan a friend and a very succesful breeder. Mr bevan had been using Entracare for over 2 years and had found it keep his rabbits clear of enteritis type problems all that time,he gave some to Robert and after using it for just one day he could see that they were on the mend... his best rabbit had contracted the problem and had lost a vast amount of weight...

I have just bought the Entracare Original (just as a tonic really) but not tried it yet.
Has anyone here used it?
I could only find
Elite Rabbit Stud: "I have been using Carr's additives for a couple of years now and have found them to be excellent. I feel it makes my bunnies healthier and stronger. It is an all herbal remedy, even going so far as to remove worms from the rabbits gut."
and
Butterfly Bunnies (rabbit rescue): "I use CARR’S entracare aqua in their water..it cleans their guts out keeping away bad bacteria"

Entracare aqua for adding to the water supply for sorting out the digestive tract - 500ml - £9.50
OR ........ Entracare Original for adding to the feed for sorting out the digestive tract - 500ml - £10.75

http://www.naturalfeeds.co.uk/rabbit.html

Rabbit products: http://carrs.flexyshop.co.uk/index.asp?action=showproducts&catid1=2
I placed my order on Tuesday and received it yesterday (Thursday).
I do hope your buns keep gaining weight so you can stop worrying soon.
 
After some intensive treatment and a long course of antibiotics I have seen a great improvement. 5 of the buns are back to to their previous healthy weights. Tamsin is up from 1.65 to 2.05, and Angel is 1.97, their healthy weight is about 2.4kg, so still a way to go but about halfway there. I'm thinking of feeding them extra food separately to prevent the others from getting fat. It's impossible to tell though if it's the treatment thats worked or the cleaning out routine.
 
After some intensive treatment and a long course of antibiotics I have seen a great improvement. 5 of the buns are back to to their previous healthy weights. Tamsin is up from 1.65 to 2.05, and Angel is 1.97, their healthy weight is about 2.4kg, so still a way to go but about halfway there. I'm thinking of feeding them extra food separately to prevent the others from getting fat. It's impossible to tell though if it's the treatment thats worked or the cleaning out routine.

Brilliant news :thumb::thumb:
 
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