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Stasis several small problems can sometimes = one big one.

thumps_

Wise Old Thumper
My snuffles bun Benjie has been increasingly off his food for a few months.
We knew he had tiny spurs, finally summoned courage for a GA & dental yesterday. He was also in full moult.

The vet found he had a tiny warty growth under his tongue interferring with tongue movement slightly, & this was removed.
The spurs were small & sharp but had not lacertated his tongue.
Of course he can't smell his food too well with his snuffles or breath when he eats, so all factors reduced food intake, especially fibre which slowed down the gut.

He was very slow to start eating again when he came home until he passed a massive fur ball!

We seem to be back on track now.

Just posting to say that sometimes several very small things can group together to make one big problem, & sometimes all we can do is to chip away at the things we CAN improve.
 
Thank you bunnytoes. Yes, he's doing great today, back to eating loads of hawthorn twigs woody bits & all, producing lovely normal big poops & rushing round the house with me again.:D:D:D
He's also completely stopped trying to eat carpet, my duvet, pillows, & even my clothes etc. for "soft" fiber. :D:D:D
He's not the only one who's feeling a lot better!!! :lol:
 
What a relief for you, I am so glad he is feeling so much better now. Are you still using the vets you moved to when yourold practice changed?

I am always in awe of how much of the hawthorn wood they eat. I am mapping out the bushes I use so I can cut them some over winter.
 
:shock: and :D relieved to hear he is on the mend! I totally agree with you there Judy and I am very glad that all went well with his GA and dental procedures.... funny to have a wart under his tongue! Sounds like you have an eagle eyed vet on hand which must be a relief.

I honestly believe that moulting and fur causes more persistent ileus than we ever give it credit for. Pops had an iffy gut for about 6 months from the begining of this year..... droppings continuously small.... virtually non existent for days on end. She had a bout of stasis as an emergency in the midst of it all. I have never seen her moult so heavily as she did this summer.... funnily enough the minute that heavy coat finally fell out and she stopped moulting her droppings instantly reverted to a size I have not seen them for years.... enormous! All it took was a holiday in Dorset and some bountiful forage and lovely juicy long grass and plantains from the Downs of Purbeck and she came home a different rabbit. Can not stress enough to those with moulting ileus buns the importance of hydration, fibre and getting rid of that fur coat!

Perhaps the reason 'house rabbits' do appear to have more instances of ileus/bloat/stasis is down to the constant temperatures indoors and persistent continuous moulting? :? Perhaps this is 'one', just one, of the reasons as to why the old fashioned hutch bunny we all kept as children managed to avoid such repeated and frequent episodes?

Hoping that Benjie remains well from now on and I promise to give you a bell soon... been a busy time here recently :oops: :wave: x
 
Yes, I with you on most of that PL.
I only know 2 facts. Moulting is a big STRESS factor for a bun. In order to moult they have to increase their energy intake by 40%.
I don't know what factors trigger moult.

I had dramatic experience of the effect of dietary intake & daylight on moulting with Thumper in the early days. His winter coat was fudge coloured, & summer coat very dark. It became impossible to feed him just as he started to moult the front end 1 spring. moulting stopped completely & he was dramatically coloured fudge with black points on his body, blackhead & a small black cape over his shoulders. It was like that all summer as I struggled trying to keep him alive, until it was literally back against the wall I said "blow all this modern stuff, I've got to feed him like a wildie". The 1st attempt was with fresh wild oats (wildies love grain crops!) It kept him going but he'd wouldn't even eat home dried oat hay. (Gut too slow to manage food & water) In fact on fresh food only Thumper didn't get stasis, but had horrendous dysbiosis - pouring olive green unseparated "toothpaste" from his bottom.
Strangely the break through with moulting was when I used the daylight lamp for myself in high exposure -2 hours a night. Thumper was similarly exposed. He started to moult copiously, literally handfuls, but the problem was that he couldn't stop!!! As soon as he started to moult at his back end he started again at his front end!!:shock:
When I eventually worked out what was happening, I stopped his exposure to the daylight lamp & he stopped moulting immediately. The trouble is that so many other things were happening at the same time, eg we discovered blackthorn leaves!! It was a couple of years before Thumps managed to get into the same season coat all over.

That year had been interesting re day light. I'm very aware of it because I've solar tubes for hot water.
The previous autumn had been very overcast all the time. There was a sudden change to very hot sunny weather in spring.He started to moult a bit more but soon needed total shading. Poor fella couldn't get any sunlight without literally boiling.
That was the year before I joined RU. It looked as if stasis was very seasonal, a mainly summer phenomenon, & Donnamt's Alvin was always the 1st bun to go down with stasis. Buns were dying in droves, with no answers. (Probably obstructing on fur balls.) Jacks Jane got that under control with a rationalised medical approach. Fortunately we haven't had a year as bad as that since.

OK we all know that wildies spend the day time underground in their burrows. But what I notice walking round the warrens in the heat of the day, is not a rabbit outside, but loads of movement at the entrance to the burrows. my theory is that they lie up inside the burrow entrance, getting their sunlight, & nip deep underground when they get too hot.

I see a definate relationship of slow gut, & the 1st thing they cut back on is fluid intake, so the ingesta get dehydrated. donnamt noticed this reduction in water consumption as the 1st sign Alvin's gut was slowing down to a critical level. Elve also noticed the dehydration aspect of paramount importance.
So behind the scenes in pm's we had the 2 schools of thought. You & I were going for the more "natural diet" of high fibre, whereas the others thought it was mainly a hydration problem. Fortunately we both respected each other as probably right but tackling the problem from different ends.

I could only tie both sides together with my "throughput theory". That per 24 hours bunny has to get enough nutrients fibre & fluid for their needs & if the gut slows down they can't.
Because they're the same species as wildies & wildies get all their fluids from dew or plant juices, they'll cut back on water intake 1st. Marie (vet) once told me that buns are very tolerant of thirst, & dehydration.

I think we all came round to the idea of using the wildie natural diet to optimise gut motility, so they could withstand natural seasonal fluctuations & maintain "throughput".

Yep I'm seeing the continuous low grade moult with Benjie, which I didn't see with Thumps. The enormous difference between them is that Benjie is too scared to go outside. The most he spends outside a day is 5-10 mins, rarely getting courage to venture off the path at the back of the house. He does frequent practice runs back indoors to check he's fit enough to escape from danger. I've also seen this type of behaviour in thumps who loved it outside, but wouldn't go out when he was ill, or stayed very close to the house.
Of course Benjie's snuffles will impair his main sense of danger - smell & possibly hearing at times.

In all this I'm not disgreeing with you about temp changes & moulting at all. I honestly haven't compared outside with inside temps, & would be fascinated to see how this fits into the picture.
I'm only saying that there's probably another factor - daylight exposure, & in fact it could well be the more minor factor!!! It's just that I'm more aware of it that I am of temp.

I'd definitely say that UK weather has changed a lot since roughly early 1990's. I see it in nature out in the fields, in trees, & had to give up gardening completely, used to grow all my veges, & although I've good soil I can't even grow weeds now. I've only about 6" of good soil on top of clay. It only takes 3 days of this unusually hot weather to set the clay like dried out concrete. Yes, you need a mattock to break it up. :shock: I can't keep the top soil moist enough for plant growth, even with mulching, cos it can't get water from deeper down through the concrete clay. I've tried breaking up the pan as it's called, but it only needs 1 week of hot weather to reform. :cry:

There is a potential effect on bunnies above ground. Although they can't sweat, when they can't lose anymore body heat through their ears, they breath more quickly & lose heat by evaporating water mainly through the upper airways as the lungs are small. Of course this presents a big problem for snuffles buns as everything dries out in the upper airways & infection can take root from lack of movement of secretions. An added problem for snuffles buns is dust, cos burrows are dust free!
I'm finding with Benjie that although he looks as if he's improving (drying up) in hot weather, he's actually getting worse cos he's blocking up. I can't keep up with the nebuliser either! Then when it cools down a bit it looks as if he's getting worse cos all the muck starts to drain, & he starts sneezing a lot.

But to return to stasis. I definitely noticed that as his feeding started to reduce, his water consumption fell off alarmingly. Temps in the bedroom where he usually stays have been surprisingly constant day & night over summer at 20 -22C by Galileo thermometer apart from a relatively few really hot days.
Just before his dental temps dropped to 18-20 overnight & all the muck started to come out.

If I contrast the depths of a wildie burrow, I think that humidity is relatively constant, & suspect but don't know that temps are much lower say of the order of 12C in summer & 8C in the depths of winter.
It's obvious that wildies can thrive in a much warmer climate than ours. For the moment it seems to me that they can always escape to these optimum conditions down their burrows, which our buns can't do.
TBH I haven't enough brain power left to work out how to improve things for them without causing ridiculous counterproductive humidity indoors. :cry:

Sorry for a mammoth essay. I really must emphasise that the all stasis work has been a joint collaberation between many people, all of whom have made huge contributions to my own understanding, & even this needs alot more refining. For a start there's how all your work on caecal dysbiosis comes into the picture PL.:)

It's so self evident to say that buns with stasis have a throughput problem - They can't get anything "through":lol: But what I'm actually saying is that the whole process starts long before we see the final result, with many factors slowing down the gut, until bunny gets into a situation he can't get out of, & then everything conspires against him into a downward spiral to the inevitable result.

ETA there's the HUGE stress factor in stasis. What causes a bunny stress is a subject in it's own right. The big reason why it causes gut slow down is that one of the hormones released under stress is cortisol which has a powerful effect on slowing down the gut.
Echinacea is marketed as boosting the immune response but in fact what it does, is to reduce the amount of cortisol released only through stress. High cortisol levels also suppress the immune system. The big problem is that correct levels of cortisol are paramount to keep us healthy. We're very ill indeed if levels are too low.
I don't know the correct dose to give to a bunny. Yes, I give an extract to Benjie because he's nervous & for his immune system & snuffles. Although they now say it's not necessary to have a rest from it to stop the adrenals failing to respond when they need to do so, I still give it to Benjie 5 days on & 2 days break. I feel we really need more facts about how to give it safely & correctly to bunnies here. Herbal medicines as distinct from diet, are far from harmless. They are highly effective in some circumstances & need to be respected as much as any drug on prescription!
 
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That's not been very nice!
Benjie was eating like a horse for 24 hours after his dental, then suddenly stopped, just 2 hawthorn twigs in 24 hours, a very few deformed fur ball type poops, then tiny bitty poops, caecals black & unformed, no drinking. Just as suddenly he started eating hawthorn leaves & twigs by the armful last night, but there was no obvious cause of obstruction from the bottom end. There have been no abnormal caecals since he started eating again, & I've seen him eating them last night, & waste poops immediately increased in size & back to nice big well separated ones today.
Yes, he had one twigs worth of blackthorn leaves about 4 -6 hours before he started eating properly again.
He was examined by the vet on Thurs am - no distension or gas, bowel sounds normal, non tender, "a bit runny at the bottom end of his abdomen".

There's such a strong resemblence to Thumper in the way he doesn't start up again until he's got all the muck out of his caecum. It isn't very nice.

I can't believe that his nose is dry & he's stopped sneezing although we stopped his ABx on Thurs.
However I did start him on a mixed herbal extract which cured Maizey's bun from recurrent snuffles for the year before he died several days ago.

Benjie is irrepressable tonight. Obviously feeling on excellent form!:D:D:D:D:D

I feel very:?:?:?:?:?:?:?:?
 
I am seeing lots of similarities between this description and my Barney. He drank lots when he arrived 3 months ago; almost emptying the bowl. He doesn't drink anything like that now. He is moulting at the back end and i have found big droppings full of fur, as well as very small ones. He frequently digs and eats bits of carpet :( do you have any more thoughts on this Judy? X
 
I am seeing lots of similarities between this description and my Barney. He drank lots when he arrived 3 months ago; almost emptying the bowl. He doesn't drink anything like that now. He is moulting at the back end and i have found big droppings full of fur, as well as very small ones. He frequently digs and eats bits of carpet :( do you have any more thoughts on this Judy? X

I think we have to speed up his gut a bit, the natural way!
When they eat cardboard or carpet they're trying to increase the completely indigestible fibre content to increase throughputas efficiently as they can.
If you pm me an address (no need for name) I'll send you a small supply of blackthorn leaves & the fine twigs of weeping willow which are Benjie's favourite GI stimulants in moult.
I'm hoping if we can really get him out of this one, he'll get through until spring when you might try hawthorn.
The advantage of leaves is that they've got lots of totally indigestible lignin, + cellulose (hay) + low nutrient value.
Blackthorn is a mild gut motility agent in it's own right, & seems to stabilise the caecal micro organisms.
 
I think we have to speed up his gut a bit, the natural way!
When they eat cardboard or carpet they're trying to increase the completely indigestible fibre content to increase throughputas efficiently as they can.
If you pm me an address (no need for name) I'll send you a small supply of blackthorn leaves & the fine twigs of weeping willow which are Benjie's favourite GI stimulants in moult.
I'm hoping if we can really get him out of this one, he'll get through until spring when you might try hawthorn.
The advantage of leaves is that they've got lots of totally indigestible lignin, + cellulose (hay) + low nutrient value.
Blackthorn is a mild gut motility agent in it's own right, & seems to stabilise the caecal micro organisms.

Thank you so much Judy :love: Barney has had X-rays today (normal) and blood tests to check for anything abnormal, as I've been really worried (other thread in rabbit chat) . I have been giving him dried plantain/clover with his hay, and today I've got some dried dandelion, birch and nettle - are these any good? :? I will PM you my address, I would really appreciate you sending me some blackthorn/willow to try him on. I have no idea where I would find it here though :( thank you so much xxx
 
:wave:My pleasure. :D
I've had a look at your general area & see your problem - dry stone walls & moorland.

The best time to identify blackthorn is in spring; April down here. It has a profuse fine white blossom importantly before it has any leaves. It's got huge black thorns too. Hawthorn flowers when the blackthorn is fading & always after the leaves have started to come out. This blossom looks more like the curds of cottage cheese.
Although it can grow quite tall it's more like a big scrubby bush & doesn't have big branches.
I noticed some scrubby looking places at the edge of the village - might be worth investigating later!
If you've got some locally I'll let you know the right time to collect it. Bunnies won't touch it until autumn.

With the forage I'd steer clear of the dandelions just now because they are diuretic (make him wee more) & the nettles might be a tad rich. The rest is great.
 
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