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nature vs. nurture - do I need to intervene?

Ryerabbit

New Kit
If this is in the wrong section, please feel free to move it

Hi everyone.
This is my first ever post on here and I imagine I am not going to be an overly active member - I only work with rabbits, I don't own any!

I have a mother and babies at work at the minute that I am really concerned about, but I don't know if I am being over dramatic because I have never done this before.

The story behind it is long and complicated. We had two "male" lionhead rabbits handed over to us from somebody who didn't want them anymore. My colleague decided to trust these people and didn't double check their sex. So of course, a few weeks later we had a surprise of two very large (atleast three inches in length) and very still born babies. The male was left in with the female for another 7 days before he was removed and neutered (not my responsibility and not something I agree with before anyone rips my head off). So of course, another litter appeared yesterday. There were four, although I found one dead this morning. With the first litter the mother had built a huge nest from fur, hay, all sorts of stuff. This time round there is nothing. I have given her a box and nesting material but she isn't interested. I don't have a proper nesting box, just a cardboard box. The babies are all over the place though. She keeps walking on then and standing on them. One has small cuts on its back from her nails. They have been wriggling around all day and I can't see any milk bands on their bellies. One of them was feeling colder than the others so I don't have high expectations for it, unfortunately.

I have been careful with scent when handling the babies to try and not put the mother off. I checked her underneath and it took me a long time to find her nipples because she obviously hadn't removed any hair from around them. I don't know if her mammary glands should be 'full', but they definitely don't feel it and i couldn't express any milk from her nipples.

I am at work tomorrow (i don't normally work weekends) so I am going to check and see if they are still alive or if there is any difference. But, what do I do? When do I decide to step in and take over if I need to or do I even bother at all? I don't know what the success rates of hand raising rabbits at this age is. I have never done it before. Are any of the things I have described above natural or IS there something to worry about?

oh FYI - Mum isn't very tame and doesn't like to be handled much - I think they were just locked away in a hutch all the time

I think I know what answers I will get here but its worth a try anyway

Thanks!
 
I would let nature take its course. She might start feeding them soon but if not they will die. If they aren't covered they will get cold and die. So I don't know if you put them all together or not to keep warm.
 
It just depends on Mum then. They dont always feed them for 24 hours after birth so you might have a nice surprise tomorrow. Mums like grass or greens when they have babies. Fingers crossed, not that we need any more buns.
 
I don't have the experience of others on this site but... none survived from the first litter (and it was a small litter and they were (perhaps) unusually large) and one at least has already died from this litter.

It doesn't sound like an ideal genetic mating to me. I wonder if they are brother and sister with further inbreeding in their ancestry? I tend to be someone who tries to give most things a chance but in this case I wonder if nature knows best and these perhaps aren't viable kits anyway.

She's certainly proving to be a carp mother - and I say this as someone who "rescued" a rabbit who later proved her gender by delivering 5 kits, 4 of which survived infancy. She seemed to naturally be a very good mother.

Good luck with whatever you decide. And hope that the two adult rabbits at least go on to have happy lives in knowledgeable homes where they are valued and loved forever.
 
No none survived from the fist litter because the male probably killed them. This is quite usual so I have heard.
 
I don't think the male killed the first two. There was no wounds of any sort on them and they were discovered not long after birth.

Yes, we are wondering if they are brother and sister aswell, especially if they were bought together and probably from the same litter. I don't even know how old they are.

I know all about not needing any more rabbits. I work with over 20.

I know nothing about breeding and rearing young because I have no interest in the subject and generally no need to until something like this crops up
 
I personally would intervene and try and help mum to look after the babies.

I also suspect that the previous two died due to being foetal giants and therefore likely incompatible with life or who suffocated during kindling (although they would likely be 'pencil kits' in that situation).

I'm on my phone so can't get it but there is a link about accIdental litters stickies in the health section which may be useful.
 
Two babies died today so there is one left. Mum had eaten the foot off one of them, it died shortly after. I have the last one at home now but I am not holding out much hope. Got him all warmed up in a small carry case
 
How sad :cry:

I do believe animals have more of a sixth sense, they know when young aren't going to survive and when they're unhealthy and generally they do leave them to die. It's very sad, but that's nature.
 
Two babies died today so there is one left. Mum had eaten the foot off one of them, it died shortly after. I have the last one at home now but I am not holding out much hope. Got him all warmed up in a small carry case

Shouldn't the mother be providing food for the baby, through milk. If she's not there how is the baby going to survive unless you're syringing kitten's milk into the baby, which I think can be used as an alternative to a Doe's milk.
 
I personally would intervene and try and help mum to look after the babies.

I also suspect that the previous two died due to being foetal giants and therefore likely incompatible with life or who suffocated during kindling (although they would likely be 'pencil kits' in that situation).

I'm on my phone so can't get it but there is a link about accIdental litters stickies in the health section which may be useful.

In relation to this post, this is the link I was talking about.
 
Shouldn't the mother be providing food for the baby, through milk. If she's not there how is the baby going to survive unless you're syringing kitten's milk into the baby, which I think can be used as an alternative to a Doe's milk.


The mother wasn't providing milk for any of the babies. They were all dehydrated and she didn't even have any milk to give. I am syringe feeding pre-made kitten milk at the minute, which i think is essentially goats milk, until i can get to the wholesaler first thing in tomorrow morning and buy some kitten formula. I haven't just brought the baby home and left it in a box, i am attempting to provide care for it.

He (for reference purposes only) has taken quite a bit of milk since i've had him home. I say "quite a bit", it's a slow process and only takes one droplet at a time. The skin isn't looking as wrinkly and the baby is sleeping and yawning now. I've managed to get him to pee once but i think he is managing on his own and i am keeping him warm with a bag of rice heated up in the microwave and wrapped in a blanket.

Time will tell now

ETA: I should add that I think this couldn't have come at a better time because i have the next two weeks off work so can provide care 24/7, not that I wouldn't have been able to at work either! its just easier at home
 
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The mother wasn't providing milk for any of the babies. They were all dehydrated and she didn't even have any milk to give. I am syringe feeding pre-made kitten milk at the minute, which i think is essentially goats milk, until i can get to the wholesaler first thing in tomorrow morning and buy some kitten formula. I haven't just brought the baby home and left it in a box, i am attempting to provide care for it.

He (for reference purposes only) has taken quite a bit of milk since i've had him home. I say "quite a bit", it's a slow process and only takes one droplet at a time. The skin isn't looking as wrinkly and the baby is sleeping and yawning now. I've managed to get him to pee once but i think he is managing on his own and i am keeping him warm with a bag of rice heated up in the microwave and wrapped in a blanket.

Time will tell now

ETA: I should add that I think this couldn't have come at a better time because i have the next two weeks off work so can provide care 24/7, not that I wouldn't have been able to at work either! its just easier at home

Sorry my ignorance, I must have not read your previous posts correctly.
Well Done anyway for taking care of the bunny, as you didn't have to :)
 
Good luck with the little one. If you can get him to adulthood, you're going to have a very affectionate rabbit who adores you. :thumb:
 
Be very careful when feeding, a lot of handreared kits die from aspirating the milk. Go slowly. You need to feed often, have a look at the sticky thread on the matter, that will give you more info. You should help him pee too, info on the thread I think.

I believe the milk you need is called cimicat or kimicat or something, you should be able to get it from your vets, your vet should have an emergency service (because its out of normal hours) which may stock it, I'd ring up and see.

A snugglesafe would be a good thing to have as they give out steady heat and last hours and hours, longer than any rice/wheat bag, mine used to last all night under a duvet. You can get them from pets at home, so easy to find and open every day.

The first couple of weeks are the hardest, especially the first few days, but it can be done, I had a rabbit who was living proof of that and grew up very healthy, although socially awkward with the other rabbits, I think because we didnt socialise him with other rabbits soon enough.

Oh and a heads up, ignore the advice you'll sometimes find online that says you need to give the kit rabbit poo or rabbit caeceotrophs to eat - poo is waste and a healthy rabbit will not leave caecotrophs - so you want neither near your fragile kit. There may be some value to a probiotic though, this is something to discuss with your vet.
 
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