E.Cuniculi-How Long Til Improvement of Paresis/Tilt w/Panacur?Alternative Therapies?

As some of you already know, Leila my dwarf x bunny has hind limb paresis since friday. For two days prior her right hind was being lifted a little but she was getting about fine. Perhaps now I look back, for a month or so she had been reluctant to jump out of the cage or up on my bed like she normally did. I thought she was perhaps getting a bit stuff with old age. She's 7.

Leila's been to Twickenham vets and is on a 6 week course of 2.4ml of 10% Panacur and she has metacam (0,5ml) once a day too. I noticed possible blood in her urine the day after gettign the treatment started. The vet recommended taking Leila for an ultrasound locally, so I did that day. The local vet said she could see something and feel something but couldn't say if it was nasty or benign. That with the paresis meant that they then suggested if Panacur hadn't shown any affect 9 days from then I should consider putting her to sleep as an option.

I'm just a little confused though and obviously distraught. It would be a massive and irreversable decision. I've never had to do this before with my own pet.

I would like to ask anyone who has had a bun with E/C before, how long it took before they began to see the SLIGHTEST improvement? Is 9 days/2 weeks too little? Even for an older bun with paresis and possible mass?

If she's still happy, eating, drinking, pooing, weeing, washing etc should I at least wait 3 weeks? A month? Finish the course? Before deciding? The vets wont perform a spay on her with paresis as it wouldn't be fair on her recovering from GA.

Obviously if she was suffering I would have to make the decision, but at the moment I don't think she is.. I know her inside out..

Also for anyone who's had experience with E/C are there any helpful alternative/complimentary therapies? Did any little things work for you and your bun to get them mobile or balanced again?

Thanks so much for all your help guys, you are keeping me going!

Im so sorry, I have no advice to offer but didnt want to read and run. There are members on here who will be able to answer your questions in depth, who have been faced with similar situations themselves.

Hoping and praying that Leila starts to improve and respond to treatment soon xxx

Havent got much time at the moment, but have loads of stuff on this as looking after an EC bunny myself.
When I have more time, I will post and try to see if I can help.
It takes ages to get over this...keep plugging.
So many bunnies recover nowadays...Chat later.xx

I think it's too soon. Not because of the treatment or anything, but because she's happy. Even if she never walks again, if she's happy I would let her live and fight. I also know from what people have said that EC gets worse before it gets better and takes ages. I've not had experience with EC myself, but I do have a rabbit who is ill long term. He takes a little more to look after, but now we're in a routine it's not so bad for me. He's happy though, he wants to live and I think it should always be up to the rabbit.

Vets know a lot, but they don't know everything. If you're not happy with what they say, get a second opinion. Although I believe Twickenham are one of the best vets so I'm sure you can just explain how you feel to them.

When Grim started to get really ill one of the things that happened to him was the vet found two huge abscesses in his jaws. He told me they could not be treated and the best thing was to put him to sleep. I said no I wanted to try. he repeated that it would be best for him to let him go under GA. I said no. I got a second opinion. The vet did a lot of research, found a treatment and eight weeks later the abscesses were gone and have never come back. That was in 2009. You know best for your rabbit. You sound like a wonderful owner, so you will do what's best.

Jenova said:

I think it's too soon. Not because of the treatment or anything, but because she's happy. Even if she never walks again, if she's happy I would let her live and fight. I also know from what people have said that EC gets worse before it gets better and takes ages. I've not had experience with EC myself, but I do have a rabbit who is ill long term. He takes a little more to look after, but now we're in a routine it's not so bad for me. He's happy though, he wants to live and I think it should always be up to the rabbit.

Vets know a lot, but they don't know everything. If you're not happy with what they say, get a second opinion. Although I believe Twickenham are one of the best vets so I'm sure you can just explain how you feel to them.

When Grim started to get really ill one of the things that happened to him was the vet found two huge abscesses in his jaws. He told me they could not be treated and the best thing was to put him to sleep. I said no I wanted to try. he repeated that it would be best for him to let him go under GA. I said no. I got a second opinion. The vet did a lot of research, found a treatment and eight weeks later the abscesses were gone and have never come back. That was in 2009. You know best for your rabbit. You sound like a wonderful owner, so you will do what's best.

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Thank you so much for your kind words.. *hug* I will have to discuss it with Laura after the 9 days or two weeks is up. The worst thing I could do is give up on her if she still wants to live, and does not appear to be in pain. because as I said before, once that decision is made, that's it.. I believe in her so much, and I do believe miracles can happen and I believe she deserves one!

Also watch this video. Then read the description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R9SVZ3FrI0

oops double posted

Jenova said:

Also watch this video. Then read the description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R9SVZ3FrI0

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That's pretty hope giving...

Just thought I'd post a couple of videos of Leila at her best

Jenova said:

Also watch this video. Then read the description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R9SVZ3FrI0

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gushes!

love this video have seen it before eeeee


Righto as jenova said and I said in the other thread it is a long road, it take a long time, but if the rabbit is fighting, wants to live and is happy then fight with them they need you to be their support.

I spent hours massaging Yuki all over focusing on her back legs and neck.

Everyday now I wipe access stuff off her bottom, I wash her when she needs it as she gets a dirty bum lots, I massage her back legs and feed her extra to keep her weight up.

little-laura said:

gushes!

love this video have seen it before eeeee


Righto as jenova said and I said in the other thread it is a long road, it take a long time, but if the rabbit is fighting, wants to live and is happy then fight with them they need you to be their support.

I spent hours massaging Yuki all over focusing on her back legs and neck.

Everyday now I wipe access stuff off her bottom, I wash her when she needs it as she gets a dirty bum lots, I massage her back legs and feed her extra to keep her weight up.

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Aww she's a very lucky bun.. I am going to take it a day at a time and if she's still seems happy in herself and isnt suffering I will aim to finish the Panacur course I think. Luckily, I took today and monday off work for my birthday tomoz, so as I only work part-time I will have 6 days to be around all day for her

Has the thing that was seen on ultrasound and felt by the vet been followed up any further? I can't help but wonder if that is linked to the issue and think it would be very premature to pts on the basis of panacur and metacam not working, when the cause of the hind leg weakness could well be linked to whatever the ultrasound showed in there, whether in addition to ec or perhaps even completely unrelated! What do Laura/C make of the ultrasound result in the context of the symptoms? If I had confidence in the u/s results definitely showing something, i would be thinking of discussing the possibility of surgery especially if this is an unswayed female. I do hope that your little one can be helped x x

I think it's sensible to take it one day at a time. As long as she is eating/drinking/pooing/weeing and seems happy in herself there is no need to rush into any decisions that cannot be reversed. 9 days is way, way too soon in my opinion.

Every bun is different- with my bun Tippex Porkychickens's head tilt I would say it was a good 4 months before she really turned the corner and began to improve. Until then it was a roller coaster ride of good days and bad days. She still has a tilt but is generally a very very happy bunny. In her case we believe that an ear infection triggered a recurrence of E.c. she had had previously. A couple of years before she suddenly collapsed and was paralysed for 5 days before making a full recovery as quickly as it began.

Lots and lots of get well vibes for your bunny xx

ETA: I forgot to say: I was offered acupunture for Tippex. I declined at the time because she was rolling too badly and I didn't want her to roll with needles in but it may be worth discussing with Laura to see whether she thinks it may help. It can have amazing results for several conditions. Tippex had it once when she had been in ileus for about 10 days and the results were impressive xx

My Inca has had EC and associated hind leg paralysis. When she first got it she was just catching her leg going into the litter tray and slipping a bit, but then I came home from work and she was lying with her legs out at the side covered in pee and poo and she couldn't get up.

I took her to the vets and she had a steroid injection and got panacur. The steroid helped her but once it wore off she was back to having no power in her legs. She basically got a few more steroid injections and then went on to Metacam. It really took her weeks to recover from this and even now her legs are pretty weak, although she copes fine. (she does have other unrelated issues re her legs!)

I personally would say that it is too soon. I have had Inca with EC & Hind leg paralysis and I also had Kermit with EC & Head Tilt (at different times) and both took a good few weeks to show any markable improvements and even longer to be themselves again, albeit with a few things remaining.

I would also want to try to find out what the thing found on the ultrasound was.

Santa said:

Has the thing that was seen on ultrasound and felt by the vet been followed up any further? I can't help but wonder if that is linked to the issue and think it would be very premature to pts on the basis of panacur and metacam not working, when the cause of the hind leg weakness could well be linked to whatever the ultrasound showed in there, whether in addition to ec or perhaps even completely unrelated! What do Laura/C make of the ultrasound result in the context of the symptoms? If I had confidence in the u/s results definitely showing something, i would be thinking of discussing the possibility of surgery especially if this is an unswayed female. I do hope that your little one can be helped x x

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Unfortunately neither of the vets inc Laura will operate on her whilst her legs are like this as it's unfair for her having to recover from GA and not being able to move, which obviously I do understand, I wouldn't want her to suffer and be scared. But yeah, it is a worry, I have myself wondered if they are related (as in if this is either knackering the immune system or over stimulating it and causing the E/C symptoms)

I haven't seen christabel.. And unfortunately it wasn't Laura who did the U/S as they dont have the facilities so I took her to a nearby vet who did and they discussed it over the phone. So she didn't get to see it herself but I'm sure the vet described it the best she could.

If she regains mobility the first thing we'll do is get her spayed, even though it will carry risk. I wish it could be sooner, but I don't think any vet would want to do it and if they don't for the rabbits well being then I would question whether I would want it done.

lilbun said:

I think it's sensible to take it one day at a time. As long as she is eating/drinking/pooing/weeing and seems happy in herself there is no need to rush into any decisions that cannot be reversed. 9 days is way, way too soon in my opinion.

Every bun is different- with my bun Tippex Porkychickens's head tilt I would say it was a good 4 months before she really turned the corner and began to improve. Until then it was a roller coaster ride of good days and bad days. She still has a tilt but is generally a very very happy bunny. In her case we believe that an ear infection triggered a recurrence of E.c. she had had previously. A couple of years before she suddenly collapsed and was paralysed for 5 days before making a full recovery as quickly as it began.

Lots and lots of get well vibes for your bunny xx

ETA: I forgot to say: I was offered acupunture for Tippex. I declined at the time because she was rolling too badly and I didn't want her to roll with needles in but it may be worth discussing with Laura to see whether she thinks it may help. It can have amazing results for several conditions. Tippex had it once when she had been in ileus for about 10 days and the results were impressive xx

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Thanks for your help and info, I will definately look into accupuncture. xxx

Kermit said:

My Inca has had EC and associated hind leg paralysis. When she first got it she was just catching her leg going into the litter tray and slipping a bit, but then I came home from work and she was lying with her legs out at the side covered in pee and poo and she couldn't get up.

I took her to the vets and she had a steroid injection and got panacur. The steroid helped her but once it wore off she was back to having no power in her legs. She basically got a few more steroid injections and then went on to Metacam. It really took her weeks to recover from this and even now her legs are pretty weak, although she copes fine. (she does have other unrelated issues re her legs!)

I personally would say that it is too soon. I have had Inca with EC & Hind leg paralysis and I also had Kermit with EC & Head Tilt (at different times) and both took a good few weeks to show any markable improvements and even longer to be themselves again, albeit with a few things remaining.

I would also want to try to find out what the thing found on the ultrasound was.

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Aw bless her, what other issues does she have with her legs?

I think I will aim to finish the course as long as Leila's not suffering and is still fighting and enjoying eating/washing etc

Hi

I am sorry not to be able to contribute much here but I just wanted to say that personally I would have total trust in any advice given by Laura or Christabel. Neither would ever in a thousand, billion, million years, suggest PTS if they believed that there were any humane alternative.

Neither Vet have the 'give up at the first hurdle' attitude. Both are driven by total dedication and compassion for every animal they treat. Advising to PTS or advising against surgical intervention would only be given if it was 100% in the best interests of the animal.

I am so sorry that Leila has many problems and I do hope that she can remain bright in spirit. She is obviously receiving wonderful care from you, dont underestimate how important 'TLC' is, even if it cannot bring about the miracle we long for. If 'letting go' is what ultimately has to occur then you can rest assured that neither you nor Laura or C have let Leila down

Believe me I know first hand the agony of having to accept that sometimes certain things cannot be 'fixed' for a Rabbit. When that happens we have to do what is right by them because that is the final gift of love we can give them.

I so hope that Leila gets her miracle and that recovery can occur.

Jack's-Jane said:

Hi

I am sorry not to be able to contribute much here but I just wanted to say that personally I would have total trust in any advice given by Laura or Christabel. Neither would ever in a thousand, billion, million years, suggest PTS if they believed that there were any humane alternative.

Neither Vet have the 'give up at the first hurdle' attitude. Both are driven by total dedication and compassion for every animal they treat. Advising to PTS or advising against surgical intervention would only be given if it was 100% in the best interests of the animal.

I am so sorry that Leila has many problems and I do hope that she can remain bright in spirit. She is obviously receiving wonderful care from you, dont underestimate how important 'TLC' is, even if it cannot bring about the miracle we long for. If 'letting go' is what ultimately has to occur then you can rest assured that neither you nor Laura or C have let Leila down

Believe me I know first hand the agony of having to accept that sometimes certain things cannot be 'fixed' for a Rabbit. When that happens we have to do what is right by them because that is the final gift of love we can give them.

I so hope that Leila gets her miracle and that recovery can occur.

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Thanks Jane, I do agree with what you wrote.. it's never easy though...

I wrote this on Leila's thread in rabbit chat but will write it here as well..Leila is beginning to show signs of improvement, over the last two days especially. She is moving by herself around the cage which she wasnt doing before, not walking on hinds yet though. BUT is pushing back with force now when they're touched/held, splaying toes much more, stretching/shivering them more, more sensitive to touch or to something like hay tickling them. Today when outside and placed in the normal seating position rabbits adopt she was trying to move off from them, trying to walk, muscles quivering as she tried and shuffling them slightly! It was amazing to see! Then she kicked one ut suddenly, with such a jolt that it made me jump, as if she was trying to wake it up! She's eating even more now, gonna order some science selective pellets as she liked the sample pack so much. I will keep up the intensive care. have been gently tapping on the accupressure points too to stimulate energy flow to the muscles.. Trying anything I can, but I think the garden is making her most determined! We only just moved and she wants to explore it so much as it's huge and full of clover and plaintains!