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Snuffles & saline nebuliser for rabbit & owner!.

thumps_

Wise Old Thumper
Little Bengie came to me nearly 6 months ago - private rescue with snuffles, white discharge from nose & eyes, sneezing & 2 abscesses. He also had alot of uneaten caecals.
We assumed pasteurellosis. He had almost cured the abscesses himself when I found them, but he was started on 2 weeks of Baytril. He's a very nervous bunny.
I've concentrated on mimimizing stress, strict dust control & am fortunate that I can feed him grass rather than hay, storing home dried rabbit friendly tree leaves & wild plants for overwintering (low dust)
He also has a few drops of ongoing herbal medicines - aqueous echinacea to maintain his immune system & a herbal mix medicine.

I have found that home made saline by nebuliser to be invaluable for both of us! (My own chronic sinusitus)
Because he's so nervous I couldn't get him used to a nebulising chamber, so he just sits on my knee for 20 mins & even purrs, needing no restraint, while I waft the spray about 3" fom his nose. Of course I get "nebulised too"! So we can't do it this way if there are meds in the nebuliser!!!!

With the recent hot weather he had a minor relapse - alot of dry sneezing & off his food. All came back under control again within 3 days by restarting his Bisolvon & nebulising with saline x2 daily. My own upper airways are fantastic!!! There was an increased runny nose at first, but now it's completely clear. This was the same for Benjie. The only draw back is a salty taste in the back of the mouth.
I now propose to keep Benjie nebulised with saline on a daily basis for the rest of his life.

I wasn't going to post until we'd got through a year, but his recent response has been quite remarkable.

The recipe for home made saline is 1/4 teaspoon (culinary measure) sea salt in 1/4 liter of cooled boiled water.
I can't make it sterile bacteriologically but I can make it very clean. I sterilise a jam jar in the oven as for jam making as a storage bottle, & only store the solution in the fridge for 2 days.
ETA this recipe gives a strength of Normal saline = N Saline which is commonly used for most purposes.

I'd appreciate your comments especially from those who have snuffles bunnies.
 
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I too have had a lot of success using saline in a nebuliser. I also use saline nasal wash-outs for myself as I have chronic sinusitis. It works better than any prescription nasal sprays I have ever tried.

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I hope the treatment continues to help both Bengie and you :)
 
Great to hear such positive news for him. I still believe that the nebuliser with saline solution has been the key to keeping Grim going. He also had a relapse in the heat. I think it being warmer literally just makes the bacteria reproduce faster.
 
Thank you for your reply Jane. I'll never forget that you diagnosed the peculiar red patch on his foot as a possible abscess - I never did get a photo.
I'm sorry that you have upper airway probs too. I found out years ago that ABx did nothing by mouth, but eye drops were helpful. In fact the best thing of all was to get a really runny cold.:shock::oops: - good clear out for a few months. So it got me thinking that the big key to snuffles was to get things runny & draining.

I'm sorry to hear Grimlock had a recent relapse. I think that another aspect is that I noticed Benjie breathing more rapidly to keep cool & my own nose dried out! I'm working on a hunch that whether dust or heat the secretions dry out, get stuck & then the bugs have a field day.

Trouble is that I don't know what's going on inside. When his nose is dry, he could be fine or a sinus could have blocked with infection behind it not able to drain into the nose. That's why I decided to keep on with it.
 
i believe saline in the nebuliser has been the key thing in treating bisc and matt. they now have hypertonic saline. i'm lucky that they have no issues with being in the 'box' - there is no way they would sit on my knee for it! :shock:
 
Hello :wave:

I'm glad to hear you are both doing well. I was thinking I hadn't seen you around much recently.

Bengie must feel like he's on holiday at the seaside every day with all that moist salty air :D
 
I'm wondering if this could help my little snuffly boy, he doesn't have much discharge but sneezes a lot :( Never quite understood how this nebulising thing works though? Would anyone care to explain it to me? :oops: Sorry if I sound really thick but I don't quite get it. Obviously would only consider this if it could help Boris in any way, which I doubt seeing as he has so little discharge? :?
 
Oh WoW!!! How lovely to meet up with you both again BiscandMatt1 & Lilbun. :D:D:D I don't think I've heard your news for a couple of years. Please let me know how everyone's doing.

Well BiscandMatt1 I don't think either of us expected me to have a snuffles bunny, in those far off days when we were thrashing out what was best for your 2!
I'm glad you agree with the saline. I suspect it penetrates the thick mucus well & helps it to liquidise better, but my other reason was theoretical - it's less likely to give a severe wipe out of the harmless bacteria which provide a but of cover to stop the nasties getting a foothold.

Lilbun I gather you are one of the very few people who can say that they've had both sorts of "bun in the oven" & both came out safely. How are you all?

Yes, with a new baby bunny, & TBH I didn't think he was long for this world at the beginning, sorting out a diet, meds & getting to know each other knocked the stuffing out of me. Even now there's not much time over for the internet. I don't know how big Benjie will grow. He's a totally different shape to Thumper - more like a Beveran but I doubt he'll make a full sized Beveran although his growth curve has been healthy. It's no mean feat getting in enough forage to get him through winter!
 
I'm wondering if this could help my little snuffly boy, he doesn't have much discharge but sneezes a lot :( Never quite understood how this nebulising thing works though? Would anyone care to explain it to me? :oops: Sorry if I sound really thick but I don't quite get it. Obviously would only consider this if it could help Boris in any way, which I doubt seeing as he has so little discharge? :?

:wave: Hi Oompa-Loopa, Benjie doesn't have much discharge either, but sneezes a lot & makes all sorts of bubbles & sqeaks from his nose when he grooms & eats when he has a flare up.

A nebuliser is the same principle as a perfume spray. It's a machine which makes compressed air to break up the liquid in a chamber into a fog of minute droplets which can be inhaled easily. The trouble is that it's a bit noisy, so I got Benjie used to the sound 1st. The saline helps to make the secretions thinner, easier to clear, & they don't stay around in the nasal passages so long acting as a breeding ground for bacteria.
Unlike Jacks Jane I don't attatch the mask I just direct the fog at his nose - it comes out in quite a straight, cool stream, but not forcefully.

A nebuliser costs about £50 on the internet. I think it's well worth a try for Boris.
It's quite a common condition in rabbits so if after a good trial it didn't help, I think you'd find someone grateful for a nearly new 2nd hand one! I think there's a good chance it would help & would love to know how you get on if you try it.

Sense of smell is very important to rabbits - it's actually how they identify us - not by sight or sound. Obviously it's important in warning them of danger. Also important in feeding cos they can't see what they're eating. I can understand why Benjie should be nervous when his sense of smell is impaired. I suspect his ears get a bit bunged up too at times but not a true otitis media, more like our "glue ear"!
 
Thank you very much for your reply, I get it now! :D I'll look into getting a nebuliser for Boris as it could definitely be worth trying, I have a feeling the noise would bother him but if I introduce it to him slowly that will probably be less of a problem I reckon :wave:
 
I nebulise Grim in his carry case. I put the nozzle through the door and drape a towel over it. He stomps a little bit but then settles down and washed himself. I set a timer so I know how long he's been in and it's good for him to have the routine and know exactly how long he's going to be in there.
 
I nebulise Grim in his carry case. I put the nozzle through the door and drape a towel over it. He stomps a little bit but then settles down and washed himself. I set a timer so I know how long he's been in and it's good for him to have the routine and know exactly how long he's going to be in there.

Yes, I also think that bunnies like routine.
Both Thumper & Benjie have done a token protest at "human interferance" = medication/dentals, usually hiding under the bed! When I realised that Benjie wasn't only licking my hand but actually purring, & needed no restraint whatsoever, I reckoned it couldn't be too bad at all. Seems that my buns always do a token protest!

Do either you or Biscandmatt1 have any photos of your nebuliser set up?
I just thought it would be nice to see the various options of using a nebuliser in 1 place.
 
I'm wondering if this could help my little snuffly boy, he doesn't have much discharge but sneezes a lot :( Never quite understood how this nebulising thing works though? Would anyone care to explain it to me? :oops: Sorry if I sound really thick but I don't quite get it. Obviously would only consider this if it could help Boris in any way, which I doubt seeing as he has so little discharge? :?

i think it would be really beneficial for boris. bisc and matt both have 'snuffles' but bisc sneezes without much discharge at all, like almost dry sneezing, whereas matt does very bunged up sneezing with alot of discharge. in both cases, nebulising has been the best thing for both of them. also, with bisc, he has gradually needed it less over time aswell which is amazing. so boris may be the same. normal saline alone would be fine for bisc, he has hypertonic saline and parvolex added just because that is what matt has.

i got my nebuliser from evergreen nebulisers online. i think it was around £40 ish. i got a plastic storage box from wilkos and we put a hole in the side where the nozzle goes and then i put two pieces of brown tape to hold it.

it can take them a while to get used to it. matt used to scratch to get out when we used his carrier. for him this didn't work as he didn't like not being able to see us and he could bite the bars aswell. with the plastic box, he settled so quickly and licks all the steam with his little tongue :love: he loves going in there now and even asks to go in!

they do 20-30mins twice a day, matt always and bisc not as much. generally when he wants :roll: but as i said, it sounds like you could just use saline alone and just nebulise when needed.

i think it's been the best thing for them, honestly can't recommend it enough. :D

eta: also, there can be damage done inside the nose, which is what bisc has. this seems to be a usual thing and is one of the reasons they can be stable but not completely cured. anyway, there can also be mucus inside the nose and at the back of the nose, so even though not alot comes out, it can still be there if you know what i mean. so nebulising will loosen any inside and drain it, and also keep the nose as clear as possible aswell.
 
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Yes, I also think that bunnies like routine.
Both Thumper & Benjie have done a token protest at "human interferance" = medication/dentals, usually hiding under the bed! When I realised that Benjie wasn't only licking my hand but actually purring, & needed no restraint whatsoever, I reckoned it couldn't be too bad at all. Seems that my buns always do a token protest!

Do either you or Biscandmatt1 have any photos of your nebuliser set up?
I just thought it would be nice to see the various options of using a nebuliser in 1 place.

i agree with routine. matt loves his routine. as i am setting everything up, i tell him to have wee wee's which he does. they have two small litter trays - one is the toilet and the other just have newspaper in. when he has had a wee, i swap the trays over and he does a kind of lap round the lounge then into the empty tray and i pick that up and lean it slightly into the neb box and he hops in. bisc - hmmm, well if he decided he will go in that time, he does a lap and hides in a gap down the side of the cage! because mummy is clever, i put the empty tray in the gap so he hops into it! haha. then i put him into the neb box. they have probiotics in there and then just either snooze in there or lick steam off the sides of the box. :love:

i don't think benjie could have ended up with anyone better. :love: you gave me so much advice and support when we were desperately trying to get my two stable. can't thank you enough. seems like a long time ago and we got there in the end. :love::love:

i have pics of the set up so will post those when photobucket decides to co-operate. x
 
No nebulising or snuffles experience here but just wanted to say that it is great to see you back on here Thumps and to hear what remarkable progress Benjie has made in your experienced, inventive and capable hands! :thumb::D:wave:

It is also lovely to hear and have described - both with pictures - how one would go about nebulising a rabbit - and even making a homemade saline solution. This is a fantastic thread and would be a useful sticky in fact I feel for those about to embark on this type of treatment. Great photo from Jane as one method - would LOVE to see BiscandMatts Bunnies in the Mist pic again :love: as an alternative method.

I am mentally bookmarking this thread should I ever need it.

:)lol::lol::lol: at Lilbun's buns in the oven Thumps!)

xx
 
i think it would be really beneficial for boris. bisc and matt both have 'snuffles' but bisc sneezes without much discharge at all, like almost dry sneezing, whereas matt does very bunged up sneezing with alot of discharge. in both cases, nebulising has been the best thing for both of them. also, with bisc, he has gradually needed it less over time aswell which is amazing. so boris may be the same. normal saline alone would be fine for bisc, he has hypertonic saline and parvolex added just because that is what matt has.

i got my nebuliser from evergreen nebulisers online. i think it was around £40 ish. i got a plastic storage box from wilkos and we put a hole in the side where the nozzle goes and then i put two pieces of brown tape to hold it.

it can take them a while to get used to it. matt used to scratch to get out when we used his carrier. for him this didn't work as he didn't like not being able to see us and he could bite the bars aswell. with the plastic box, he settled so quickly and licks all the steam with his little tongue :love: he loves going in there now and even asks to go in!

they do 20-30mins twice a day, matt always and bisc not as much. generally when he wants :roll: but as i said, it sounds like you could just use saline alone and just nebulise when needed.

i think it's been the best thing for them, honestly can't recommend it enough. :D

eta: also, there can be damage done inside the nose, which is what bisc has. this seems to be a usual thing and is one of the reasons they can be stable but not completely cured. anyway, there can also be mucus inside the nose and at the back of the nose, so even though not alot comes out, it can still be there if you know what i mean. so nebulising will loosen any inside and drain it, and also keep the nose as clear as possible aswell.

Thank you so much for sharing your widsom :D :thumb:

I had a quick look on Amazon last night and found quite a few different ones, most of them were around £50-£60 I think so maybe I ought to have a look elsewhere if there are cheaper ones available....they might even sell them somewhere more local to me, which would save me some potentially high shipping costs. Not sure where to look though as I've never even heard of these being used over here. But it shouldn't be impossible.

I do suspect that there's damage inside the nose and possibly in the lungs as well since it's basically impossible to get rid of completely. The first time around he went completely back to normal, even his breathing rate was normal. But a few months in the hands of a useless vet later, it has progressed and become a chronic problem. I often beat myself up for not realising sooner but really, there's no point in thinking about the past and wondering if I could've done anything differently. I just have to do whatever I can to help him now and hope for the best :) A nebuliser might be a good way of achieving that, so I'm seriously considering getting one :thumb:
 
I want to say a big thankyou to all the posters on this thread.

I know ALL of you through RU, as amazing caring people, totally devoted to your lovely bunnies, & who have struggled through nightmares of bunny illness to do everything possible to help them, & give then happy fulfilled lives.
I feel a great warmth for you ALL, as despite your individual distress, you have shared so freely in trying to understand the problems & find simple things we can do to improve the outcome for our bunnies.
Thank you for your compliment PL. I feel that it could apply to all of us on here.

Yes, PL I would also love to see the photo of bunnies in the mist again.

Biscandmatt1 if I hadn't known you through RU, Benjie would have deteriorated horrifically by now.
I owe it to you that I began to get a concept of the problem of snuffles, & why we can't cure it, but we can do so many simple things to keep it under control.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that the problem is that the initial infection damages the natural defeses & this is why they need help with a nebuliser. This is why I decided to keep on nebulising Benjie at such an early phase of the disease.

At risk of being boring, one of the problems is that we, & bunnies breath in all sorts of nasty bacteria with each breath. There's a brilliant defense. The mucus is like sticky "fly paper" & the clever bit is that it's continuously being moved to the back of the throat by microscopic hairs in the nasal lining. From the throat it's swallowed & dumped into the acid bath of the stomach -end of bacteria!!! It's like an escaltor of mucus which when working properly prevents the bacteria getting near the nasal lining & damaging it.
If the lining is destroyed by infection, it can't regrow these essential hairs, it can only make lumpy scar tissue, so the mucus gets stuck. If it gets stuck, the bacteria keep on multiplying & then start to attack the lining. We can't do anything about the hairs, but if we make the mucus more runny with a nebuliser it's easier for the remaining hairs to keep the system going, or if the damage is too great, at least we can get the bacteria out at the bottom end of the nose before they start to attack the lining.
The huge problem with bunnies is that the mucus is the same as ours but the passages are tiny, especially the passages from the sinuses & middle ear. So they can block easily if the mucus gets a bit thick or if the bacteria start to invade & the tissues swell in response. Yet again keeping the mucus thin with a nebuliser helps so much.

I'm both delighted for you biscandmatt1 that both your bunnies are stable, yet also sad because you were one of the 1st people to try this approach. The top people in the vet world understood what to aim for, but it was trial & error how best to achieve it. There wasn't any help from human medicine either because humans are so much bigger we don't hit the same problems to anything like the same degree.
It's thanks to your generosity & willingness to explain things to me that this thread exists & Benjie & I are trying out this form of treatment from the beginning.

The other aspect to this journey is that all our bunnies have different temperaments. Some will hop into a carrier or box to be nebulised, some will take to a mask & some just won't! The more ways we find to achieve the same ends -the easier it is for those in the future!
 
Thank you so much for sharing your widsom :D :thumb:

I had a quick look on Amazon last night and found quite a few different ones, most of them were around £50-£60 I think so maybe I ought to have a look elsewhere if there are cheaper ones available....they might even sell them somewhere more local to me, which would save me some potentially high shipping costs. Not sure where to look though as I've never even heard of these being used over here. But it shouldn't be impossible.

I do suspect that there's damage inside the nose and possibly in the lungs as well since it's basically impossible to get rid of completely. The first time around he went completely back to normal, even his breathing rate was normal. But a few months in the hands of a useless vet later, it has progressed and become a chronic problem. I often beat myself up for not realising sooner but really, there's no point in thinking about the past and wondering if I could've done anything differently. I just have to do whatever I can to help him now and hope for the best :) A nebuliser might be a good way of achieving that, so I'm seriously considering getting one :thumb:

this is the one we have. i don't know what shipping is like. but just incase it's ok:

http://evergreen-nebulizers.co.uk/mains/mains_omron.html#c28p

it's the omron c28. you can buy spare parts aswell, very useful when bunnies chew through the wire! :roll:

i know what you mean, i beat myself up about it aswell because i didn't realise they needed an exotics vet and the vet we were going to were not good and it just got left and got worse and by the time we went to the rabbit vet it was a chronic problem. i do blame myself. but like you say, we can only do everything we can now.

i'm glad you're considering getting a nebuliser anyway. :thumb:
 
Oh WoW!!! How lovely to meet up with you both again BiscandMatt1 & Lilbun. :D:D:D I don't think I've heard your news for a couple of years. Please let me know how everyone's doing.

Well BiscandMatt1 I don't think either of us expected me to have a snuffles bunny, in those far off days when we were thrashing out what was best for your 2!
I'm glad you agree with the saline. I suspect it penetrates the thick mucus well & helps it to liquidise better, but my other reason was theoretical - it's less likely to give a severe wipe out of the harmless bacteria which provide a but of cover to stop the nasties getting a foothold.

Lilbun I gather you are one of the very few people who can say that they've had both sorts of "bun in the oven" & both came out safely. How are you all?

Yes, with a new baby bunny, & TBH I didn't think he was long for this world at the beginning, sorting out a diet, meds & getting to know each other knocked the stuffing out of me. Even now there's not much time over for the internet. I don't know how big Benjie will grow. He's a totally different shape to Thumper - more like a Beveran but I doubt he'll make a full sized Beveran although his growth curve has been healthy. It's no mean feat getting in enough forage to get him through winter!

Sorry for the late reply: Between the buns and Mr A (baby) I am kept very busy! Mr A is a real live wire and rarely sleeps for long, and the buns have had a spot of spring fever (or as I think of it now, Eurovision fever, as there always seems to be an outbreak of scrapping that coincides with the Eurovision song contest. This time it has resulted in a bunny divorce (after 3 years together) so I am currently involved in bonding- Mango Fattyharebit has decided she wants to live with Apricot Le-Bunbun and Custardapple Furrypods instead of Tippex Porkychicken and Bunny Clifton. Fingers crossed it will work out this time.

Thanks for explaining how nebulising works. Fortunately I haven't needed to use it on my crew but I have seen in it action and know that it can literally be a life-saver.

Love and nose rubs to Bengie xx
 
thumps_ - you made me all emotional with what you said. i feel as though you helped me way more though. and i just repeated what the vet said really. i tell him i pass his wisdom off as my own! :lol:

here's the 'bunny/bunnies in the mist' :love:

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we have a new neb box now after the last one i accidently cracked all the plastic when making the hole, which matt then took as an opportunity to rip apart! :roll: the new one my dad made a small hole in the side with a blow torch and now it just has two pieces of brown tape across and looks much neater. :lol:
 
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