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Poor Mimzy's aches and pains

MimzMum

Wise Old Thumper
He's allowed me to massage his left rear leg and toes for long periods today. My other two wouldn't let me near their feet on a bet but Mimz just nuzzles his face near my hand and flexes his little toes as my fingers touch them. :(
He's needed his maximum 0.3 ml of metacam broken into two daily doses for about the last week. It doesn't really agree with his stomach but if I don't give it he just lies around all day and night, obviously uncomfy.

He's had a fast growing hip spur on that side, early onset arthritis (since he was three or four years old) and spondylosis...now I'm seeing his back curve as if he has scoliosis. He holds his left rear foot at an odd angle all the time and hasn't flopped to sleep for years.

My poor boy. It's just not fair. He used to love binking and running about playing hide and seek with me. He's grown old far too quickly. :cry:

What else can I do to ease his pain? He seems to prefer cold to heat and snuggles up to his frozen water bottles. So warming him doesn't help. :(
 
He's allowed me to massage his left rear leg and toes for long periods today. My other two wouldn't let me near their feet on a bet but Mimz just nuzzles his face near my hand and flexes his little toes as my fingers touch them. :(
He's needed his maximum 0.3 ml of metacam broken into two daily doses for about the last week. It doesn't really agree with his stomach but if I don't give it he just lies around all day and night, obviously uncomfy.

He's had a fast growing hip spur on that side, early onset arthritis (since he was three or four years old) and spondylosis...now I'm seeing his back curve as if he has scoliosis. He holds his left rear foot at an odd angle all the time and hasn't flopped to sleep for years.

My poor boy. It's just not fair. He used to love binking and running about playing hide and seek with me. He's grown old far too quickly. :cry:

What else can I do to ease his pain? He seems to prefer cold to heat and snuggles up to his frozen water bottles. So warming him doesn't help. :(

Thats a very low dose of metacam, especially split into 2. Is it dog or cat metacam?

I'd speak to your vet about getting Mimzy onto a MUCH higher dosage.

Vibes for you and him!
 
Thats a very low dose of metacam, especially split into 2. Is it dog or cat metacam?

I'd speak to your vet about getting Mimzy onto a MUCH higher dosage.

Vibes for you and him!

Actually I missed that completely and agree with GrahamL. Unless Mimzy is a tiny bunny. :)
 
He's allowed me to massage his left rear leg and toes for long periods today. My other two wouldn't let me near their feet on a bet but Mimz just nuzzles his face near my hand and flexes his little toes as my fingers touch them. :(
He's needed his maximum 0.3 ml of metacam broken into two daily doses for about the last week. It doesn't really agree with his stomach but if I don't give it he just lies around all day and night, obviously uncomfy.

He's had a fast growing hip spur on that side, early onset arthritis (since he was three or four years old) and spondylosis...now I'm seeing his back curve as if he has scoliosis. He holds his left rear foot at an odd angle all the time and hasn't flopped to sleep for years.

My poor boy. It's just not fair. He used to love binking and running about playing hide and seek with me. He's grown old far too quickly. :cry:

What else can I do to ease his pain? He seems to prefer cold to heat and snuggles up to his frozen water bottles. So warming him doesn't help. :(





Poor chap :cry:

As Metacam does not agree with him then giving a high dose may not be a good idea

Would your Vet consider an alternative analgesia ? Possibly given by injection if his GI tract is very sensitive.

Do any Vets near you do offer acupuncture ? I have had a few Rabbits who have benefited from this
 

Do any Vets near you do offer acupuncture ?
I have had a few Rabbits who have benefited from this

This is what I was going to suggest. I know there are a few buns on the forum who have done really well with it.

Lots of vibes and nose rubs to Mimzy xx
 
Thank you for your kind replies everyone. :)
Mimzy is a Holland lop, approximately 3-4 pounds. Not sure exactly since vet weighs him in kilograms and conversion isn't my strong suit. I don't know what I did with his last vet bill which will show his weight, I'll try to find it if that would help.
He's been on this 0.2-0.3 ml per day for over a year now. I worry how it's affecting his stomach, liver and kidneys. It is the dog strength.
Of late I've also noticed his water intake/urine output is dwindling, but even weather changes can affect that in him so I'm keeping a close eye. I speak to his vet this weekend so I'm going to mention this. All the buns are eating Oxbow Meadow Hay and the last few batches seem to cause some chalky urine in the other two, so although Mimzy's urine is clear, I may have to have him checked for sludge.
He is eating less hay...he may need a dental. He enjoys his greens, occasional pellets and hay cubes.
All three are blowing their coats. Mimzy is having some difficulty regrowing his and last year he was shaved for an ultrasound (we feared thymoma) and these areas just behind his forelegs haven't grown back much at all. I fear he's not taking in enough nourishment to moult, I remember how Judy's (thumps_) Thumper often had this problem and she'd have to up his forage. Sadly our yard still thinks it's winter and only one small patch of dandelions have surfaced. :(

Jane we just got an acupuncturist at our practice. Not sure if Mimz would sit still for it but I will ask about it.
Injectable meds can be problematic with my buns. I don't do well with needles (I know I should suck it up and learn to be) and although hubby has helped me in the past with Pen-G injections we tend to see meds dribble back out rather than stay put no matter how hard we try to get it right. It's frustrating for us and stressful for Mimz. :(

I've just seen Mimz hop in and immediately out of his litter box twice now. At night I just use Carefresh in his habitat and no litter box to give him a break from hopping in and out and I find urine stains on the bedding, but during the day we have this behavior and rather less wee.

Sigh...methinks we'll be driving him in if he keeps this up. :(
 
Poor boy.

I just remembered when my chinchilla broke her arm she was on 0.33ml of dog metacam, so that really is a tiny amount for a rabbit, especially if it's being given in half doses. As far as I'm aware, metacam does cause kidney issues in dogs, but there is no proof it does for rabbits. But the way I see it, if they're in pain it's no good, so they may as well have some pain free time on a higher dose and if it does cause issues then deal with that later.

The way metacam is measured roughly is 0.2ml per kilo of bunny. Grim is about 3kg so he has 0.66ml. I've given that to him every twelve hours at one point when his teeth were really bad. I wold ask the vet if you can up the dose, depending on his weight. Thinking my chinchilla had more than that makes me realise how small a dose it is.
 
Fiver weighs about 1.9kg (think that's about 4lbs) and he was on 0.4mls of Metacam for a minor problem. I would think your bunny should be on a lot more but if it affects his tummy then other pain killers could be given. Either that or the vet could inject the metacam, this would mean lots of trips to the vets though so perhaps you could ask for a long term painkiller? I'm not sure what painkiller specifically but just thinking of things you could ask your vet.
Acupunture is a very good idea. :thumb: I would certainly try that. Does he have lots of soft things to sit/lie on? Vet bet is very good for achey buns to sit on :)
 
Wow...a chinchilla dose? 0_o That seems inadequate then.
I'll speak to my vet about upping it or changing to a different delivery method. We briefly discussed tramadol last visit but it requires special preparation. I'd have to go to a humans pharmacy and sometimes being in Alaska means ordering medicine from the lower 48 due to lack of supply/demand.

I think I figured out the daytime wee problem. Removed litter box and left litter. Mimz went over straightaway and lifted his tail in two different spots. Sure enough he'd been trying to tell me to lose the box. I'm not paying close enough attention to his cues. I'm a moron, me. (forehead slap)

He's happy as a clam now...digging away, chewing his hay cube, nosebonking me for a fuss. I plead foggy brain due to insomnia.

Vegan Bunny! :D My Fiver sends nose wiggles to your Fiver! :thumb:

I was surprised when, during a bout of stasis last year, that Fiver received (from ER vet) a dosing schedule of 0.3 mls of metacam as needed each hour until his gut got moving again and this was on top of injectable buprenorphine and metaclop. Fiver is the same weight as Mimzy! So my vet must be taking the conservative approach.
Definitely will look into the acupuncture. It's not something Mimzy would have to do daily, is it? We live thirty miles from town and the vet's office...that would be a rough travel schedule for my bun.
I've tried a number of soft things for him but he's a chewer, so the possibility of intestinal blockage is always a concern. Currently I think I have a winner in the Palace Pet Bed as he doesn't seem to be able to tear much if anything out of it. He really slouches while sitting on it and I'm not sure if he doesn't get too warm using it. I'm still looking for the perfect fit in this area.
Of course he loves my bed...but he'll wee on it. :roll: He will soak a puppy pad and then as I'm changing it he'll wee again on my bedding and laugh at my exasperation. :twisted:

I love him so much. :love:
 
If you are using the Dog Metacam (1.5mg/ml) then the dose range can be 0.2ml-0.4ml/kg daily. Infact the dose is noted as being even higher in some papers I have just read.

Mimz is not on a therapeutic dose of Metacam, so he really wont be having any benefit from it at all. As far as side effects go, as with all medication there will be risks. But you need to weigh up risks v benefits. If Mimz were my Bunny I would rather he had a therapeutic dose of medication to give him a more comfortable time even if that time may be marginally shortened due to any *possible but NOT inevitable* negative effects of the drug.

I would have a word with the Vet about increasing the dose and possibly adding a H2-receptor antagonist such as Ranitidine. This will help reduce the risk of GI tract ulceration.

Here is a bit of info about the excretion rate of Meloxicam (Metacam) in Rabbits:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16521861

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Meloxicam.htm

I have had Rabbits on a relatively high dose of Metacam and none have had any adverse side effects

Lots of vibes being sent for Mimz xx
 
Just finishing up his 'spa day'...omg
Nails were terrible, even though we just had them done a few weeks ago. Fur is coming out in brittle chunks in the most odd places; left side of face, right flank, rear heels and skirt. And he's NOT happy about all the poking and prodding. I hate this time of month.

Got his weight. 1770 kg. Two years ago he was over 1800. He floats up and down the scale but he just feels so bony lately. :(

He's chillin' next to me while I scratch his bum for him. :) And wonder of wonders...he's fallen asleep for almost an hour! He NEVER does that outside his sleeping spot. (Yes, it took me that long to finished this post!)

He was doing something really odd earlier though. He'd pack his mouth full of hay and carry it around and if I tried to take it from him he wouldn't let it go without ample tugging on my part. He looked like a mother bird getting stuff to build a nest with. Now I'm worried he's jammed something in a gum or between his teeth somewhere.

He was feeling well enough to spray me as I inspected his botty though. Yuck. :x
 
If you are using the Dog Metacam (1.5mg/ml) then the dose range can be 0.2ml-0.4ml/kg daily. Infact the dose is noted as being even higher in some papers I have just read.

Mimz is not on a therapeutic dose of Metacam, so he really wont be having any benefit from it at all. As far as side effects go, as with all medication there will be risks. But you need to weigh up risks v benefits. If Mimz were my Bunny I would rather he had a therapeutic dose of medication to give him a more comfortable time even if that time may be marginally shortened due to any *possible but NOT inevitable* negative effects of the drug.

I would have a word with the Vet about increasing the dose and possibly adding a H2-receptor antagonist such as Ranitidine. This will help reduce the risk of GI tract ulceration.

Here is a bit of info about the excretion rate of Meloxicam (Metacam) in Rabbits:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16521861

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Meloxicam.htm

I have had Rabbits on a relatively high dose of Metacam and none have had any adverse side effects

Lots of vibes being sent for Mimz xx

Thank you, Jane :)
I wanted to reply exclusively to your post.
Thank you for all the info on metacam. How sad that what I've been giving him hasn't been enough. :( Yes, it's likely not affecting his tummy...instead he just looks uncomfy because he's still in pain. :cry:
And if he's in pain it will shorten his life AND he'll be miserable for it. I can't lose anything trying a higher dose. I will talk to my vet...she has mentioned before that bunnies can handle higher doses than dogs or cats. I think he will benefit in general from the ranitidine as well since unless he's running a course of baytril his tum does present as sluggish or gassy.

And thank you also for the vibes. :) I've told Mimzy you're thinking of him. :)
 
I don't have time to read the whole thread so sorry but just to say that Nino had early onset OA too and benefitted greatly from daily metacam at the therapeutic level adjusted to how he was and the weather etc. Cold and damp will always make it worse so we increased it in winter months and then dropped it down again in the warmer months.

Lots of things you can do to help - a heat pad for resting on - Nino had a pet safe electric blanket (low voltage and armoured cable) - worked wonders because it keeps the joints warm and stops them stiffening up on rest. Glucosamine supplements - there are lots of pet arthritic supplements out there - my bun had a cat glucosamine capsule mashed into banana daily - it certainly helped with mobility. I have to emphasize how crucial pain relief was though - metacam is so effective, but even more so as an anti-inflammatory and thus preventing further joint damage (or slowing it down anyway). Yes it was a risk from SE but early onset OA is life limiting and quality limiting anyway so IMO it was the highest dose he needed for a better quality of life, albeit shorter. It may be that giving ranitidine as well long term as an H2 receptor antagonist will help prevent the GI side effects of high dose metacam.

Hope he feels better soon x

ETA Nino's metacam dosing ranged between 0.3 and 0.4 mls twice a day - so that is 0.6-0.8 mls daily of the dog stuff - he weighed 1.5-1.7 kg (varied a bit) so you can see he was up at the upper range of dosing. If he had acute pain we would take it up as a one-off to 1ml on occassion as a one-off dose - quite a hefty dose for a little bunny, and he tolerated it well. He had regular bloods and all was fine kidney/liver wise. :wave:
 
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Can't believe I forgot to update this thread...sorry. :(
So my vet agreed to up his metacam doses, but only to a maximum of 0.4ml per day. I also haven't gotten a dosage from her on the ranitidine, I think that with the dogs' surgeries and the lack of time she's actually at the practice she's forgotten and I've been so wound up with everything going on, I didn't remember either. *sigh*
Sadly, after these last few weeks the higher dose doesn't seem to be helping...if anything he seems worse. I think we may have to try a different painkiller for him. Perhaps he's developed a tolerance to metacam.

My poor little boy looks so old. :cry: Having had chronic pain for years myself, I can attest that it ages you prematurely.

He and Fiver had a nice afternoon yesterday though.
(sorry it's such a big pic, not sure how to resize)
D701E847-orig.jpg

Spur of the moment get together that lasted three hours. They seemed to enjoy one another's company. :)
I may abandon attempts to rebond Mimzy with Pip and try with Fiver instead...I still worry that Pip would crush Mimzy in his depleted state were she to assert dominance. However this leaves her without a husbun. (I am not allowed anymore rabbits as my OH is now allergic to them.)
 
First off I would like to say GORGEOUS bunnies :love: Mimzmum :wave:

I'm so sorry that poor Mimzy is suffering with his chronic pain. How long has he been on the higher dose of metacam? It can take a while to build up the levels in his blood - are you splitting the dose? Nino's arthritis responded much better in a pain sense to 2x daily metacam - he really seemed happier with the split dose. In terms of pain relief for an inflammatory degenerative condition, metacam really is the most effective it appears, I would be surprised if tolerance were achieved at that dosage rate? :? You could try another NSAID but you do need the non-steroidal drug for the reduction of inflammation in the joint in these conditions.

Nino only weighed 1.5kg and was having 0.4ml twice daily - perhaps you could try and persuade your vet again to consider a higher dose? Difficult I appreciate :cry: I'm wondering if some external exotic vet or research evidence on rabbit tolerance and excretion rates of metacam would help to persuade her? I do think he would benefit from a higher dose still. She could do blood tests every few months - 6 months to satisfy her concern to check his renal/liver function. This is what my vet did with Nino - they were always normal so he eventually stopped worrying about the SE so much and dropped his bloods to once a year to keep an eye on things.

Vibes for Mimzy xx

p.s. have you tried the heat blanket idea?
 
Thank you, PL. :)
You know, the warming blanket had completely slipped my mind. :( I'm juggling so much lately I'm not sure which end is up anymore. But generally he doesn't like heat. As our indoor and outdoor temps rise I see him sitting oddly, his back slumping towards his haunches. It's almost like he's melting. Then when temps drop or he has a frozen water bottle nearby, he's much more animated, alert and upright.
He does get a split dose. Been doing that for awhile actually. :)
I think he's a bit improved after dropping the dose, but hard to tell with our fluctuating weather. Been too warm one minute, cold and windy/storming the next or just downright muggy. He's just not a happy bun these days but the excess metacam seems to turn him into a downright puddle. I worry that the swaybacked posture could be anything from tummy upset/gas to kidney pain. :(
I have to take Jenna (my Yorkie) to have stitches removed tomorrow so I'll do a little dance and see if I can't get some better answers for Mimzy. She's been pretty good so far about discussing him in absentia, she knows it agitates him extremely to bring him in. But if this isn't resolved by next week or if he spirals down it'll be time for him to ride in. *nods*

Thank you for all your help. :) I hope we get some progress made soon.
 
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