Unusually orange urine

From what I've read from searching on here and google, this isn't something to worry about... can someone just confirm that this is right, to give me a little peace of mind? :wave:

They've been allowed supervised free range time in the garden for the first time recently, I'm guessing it's something they've eaten out there. I don't need to cut down their play time do I?

Orange wee is fine and is probably caused by eating dandelions that are now growing in the garden.

No, no need to cut playtime, just make sure it's supervised so they don't eat the toxic plants you may have around.

Enjoy watching them enjoy the freedom of a big playground!

Thank you! :thumb:

if they're not usually allowed out you should limit the amount they can eat to begin with so that they gradually get used to eating more fresh plant matter.

Stator said:

if they're not usually allowed out you should limit the amount they can eat to begin with so that they gradually get used to eating more fresh plant matter.

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Thank you, yes, I've been letting them out on the patio and one corner of grass for a while now but have only just finished securing the fence so they can access the rest of the garden. They have an hour ish a day on the lawn at the mo - it is indeed full of dandelions. I usually pick them for them but now they can get to them themselves they get a bit carried away!

I've been tempting them back home with a couple of the day's portion of pellets so that they aren't too disappointed when I decide they've eaten enough of the garden for the day.

Thanks for your advice :wave:

I can reassure you that it's completely normal & common in buns who are eating a natural diet of wild foods - dandelions especially.
Here's Thumper's urine after he's had a feast of dandelions.

My Incas pee has been the same recently due to me feeding her dandelions from the garden. I was initially worried too!

Thanks everyone, feel better now!

I could be wrong - probably am - but I think you have to limit the amount of dandelions bunnies have as too many can upset their tummies. I think. Perhaps someone else can confirm/correct?

Angie B said:

I could be wrong - probably am - but I think you have to limit the amount of dandelions bunnies have as too many can upset their tummies. I think. Perhaps someone else can confirm/correct?

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Yes, you are absolutely correct:thumb:. ANY new food can upset their tummy & cause moist or runny caecals (dysbiosis) by disrupting the bacteria in the gut. It has to be introduced gradually, & reintroduced gradually if they haven't eaten it for a while.
Dandelions also contain a diuretic (makes them pass more urine than normal). The diuretic is mainly in the stem of leaves & flowers. (Isn't it interesting how different parts of plants contain different natural medicines?) However they don't get dehydrated if fed really fresh leaves because the fluid in the leaves exceeds the diuetic effect.
It's a similar situation with bladder sludge problems. Although dry dandelion leaves have a relatively high calcium content, the fluid in the fresh leaves offsets this, so that a few dandelion leaves have a net benefit for buns prone to sludge.

My Thumper had an incredibly rare gut disease (only recorded case in a rabbit) For the last 8-9 months of his life the only thing he could eat was fresh dandelion leaves 3/4 carrierbagful a day. :shock: I do NOT recommend this. I had to be very careful that he didn't dehydrate. Thumper learned to discard the stems & I helped by taking them all out too.

thumps_ said:

Yes, you are absolutely correct:thumb:. ANY new food can upset their tummy & cause moist or runny caecals (dysbiosis) by disrupting the bacteria in the gut. It has to be introduced gradually, & reintroduced gradually if they haven't eaten it for a while.
Dandelions also contain a diuretic (makes them pass more urine than normal). The diuretic is mainly in the stem of leaves & flowers. (Isn't it interesting how different parts of plants contain different natural medicines?) However they don't get dehydrated if fed really fresh leaves because the fluid in the leaves exceeds the diuetic effect.
It's a similar situation with bladder sludge problems. Although dry dandelion leaves have a relatively high calcium content, the fluid in the fresh leaves offsets this, so that a few dandelion leaves have a net benefit for buns prone to sludge.

My Thumper had an incredibly rare gut disease (only recorded case in a rabbit) For the last 8-9 months of his life the only thing he could eat was fresh dandelion leaves 3/4 carrierbagful a day. :shock: I do NOT recommend this. I had to be very careful that he didn't dehydrate. Thumper learned to discard the stems & I helped by taking them all out too.

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I didn't know that, that's very interesting. Thank you :wave:

thumps_ said:

Yes, you are absolutely correct:thumb:. ANY new food can upset their tummy & cause moist or runny caecals (dysbiosis) by disrupting the bacteria in the gut. It has to be introduced gradually, & reintroduced gradually if they haven't eaten it for a while.
Dandelions also contain a diuretic (makes them pass more urine than normal). The diuretic is mainly in the stem of leaves & flowers. (Isn't it interesting how different parts of plants contain different natural medicines?) However they don't get dehydrated if fed really fresh leaves because the fluid in the leaves exceeds the diuetic effect.It's a similar situation with bladder sludge problems. Although dry dandelion leaves have a relatively high calcium content, the fluid in the fresh leaves offsets this, so that a few dandelion leaves have a net benefit for buns prone to sludge.

My Thumper had an incredibly rare gut disease (only recorded case in a rabbit) For the last 8-9 months of his life the only thing he could eat was fresh dandelion leaves 3/4 carrierbagful a day. :shock: I do NOT recommend this. I had to be very careful that he didn't dehydrate. Thumper learned to discard the stems & I helped by taking them all out too.

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Thank you, super informative post! So eating them straight from the ground should be ok?

Yes, but limit them.

Okey dokey, I will continue limiting their time in the garden. It's been horrible out today so they've been in their run and hutch and the litter trays are consequently a normal colour! I can always de-dandelion the worst bits before they go out as well :thumb: My lawn is not the most beautiful even and green patch you will find... :lol:

sierra*323 said:

Okey dokey, I will continue limiting their time in the garden. It's been horrible out today so they've been in their run and hutch and the litter trays are consequently a normal colour! I can always de-dandelion the worst bits before they go out as well :thumb: My lawn is not the most beautiful even and green patch you will find... :lol:

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:lol: Sounds like a good bunny lawn to me.:thumb: What I also used to do was get Thumper used to the edible plants in the lawn by introducing them to his feed slowly, as they appeared.
My buns are house buns so they're a bit nervous of predators when out. Yep I free range them too, so they can have a decent run around & dig :thumb: I never leave them alone for even a second. Being a bit nervous neither eat much from the garden -they don't like putting their head down to graze!
It's been horrible here too. Benjie is pelting round the house like a coiled up spring! :lol:

I think Doughnut is one of the few rabbits who doesn't like dandelions. She won't eat any part of it, much prefers rose leaves which she goes mad for.

She's a house rabbit too but goes out on the grass now when the weather's OK. She loves the grass but since it keeps raining she's not getting out as much and doesn't seem to have as much exercise indoors,she'd rather just eat and sleep!

cpayne said:

I think Doughnut is one of the few rabbits who doesn't like dandelions. She won't eat any part of it, much prefers rose leaves which she goes mad for.

She's a house rabbit too but goes out on the grass now when the weather's OK. She loves the grass but since it keeps raining she's not getting out as much and doesn't seem to have as much exercise indoors,she'd rather just eat and sleep!

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Rose leaves are good fiber to keep the gut moving. If she's moulting just now she may well "go for" them to help to get rid of the fur she swallows when she's grooming. Also spring plants/grass is slightly rich for them & they top up on fiber to keep their gut stable (prevent dysbiosis)
Benjie is currently "going for" a combination of hawthorn leaves & chickweed. (Chickweed has mucilage in it which acts as a gut lubricant) He's about 3/4 of the way through his 1st. moult & changed his diet slightly when moulting became heavy.
I'm gaining an impression that a lot of rabbits have the general idea about what they need to eat to keep them in top condition, but they can also learn by eating a little & waiting for the effect. There seems to be quite a lot of individual variation in which wild plants they'll eat or refuse.

To get orange urine the plants only have to be green. Some also have additional orange or red pigments in them & are notorious for it. Benjie has urine the same colour as Thumper's because the bulk of his diet is fresh green hawthorn leaves & fresh chickweed.

Do you want me to discuss the relationship between the green chlorophyl in plants & haem in animals/ urine colour? Simple biochemistry but I can't translate the long names to anything simpler?

thumps_ said:

Rose leaves are good fiber to keep the gut moving. If she's moulting just now she may well "go for" them to help to get rid of the fur she swallows when she's grooming. Also spring plants/grass is slightly rich for them & they top up on fiber to keep their gut stable (prevent dysbiosis)
Benjie is currently "going for" a combination of hawthorn leaves & chickweed. (Chickweed has mucilage in it which acts as a gut lubricant) He's about 3/4 of the way through his 1st. moult & changed his diet slightly when moulting became heavy.
I'm gaining an impression that a lot of rabbits have the general idea about what they need to eat to keep them in top condition, but they can also learn by eating a little & waiting for the effect. There seems to be quite a lot of individual variation in which wild plants they'll eat or refuse.

To get orange urine the plants only have to be green. Some also have additional orange or red pigments in them & are notorious for it. Benjie has urine the same colour as Thumper's because the bulk of his diet is fresh green hawthorn leaves & fresh chickweed.

Do you want me to discuss the relationship between the green chlorophyl in plants & haem in animals/ urine colour? Simple biochemistry but I can't translate the long names to anything simpler?

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Sure, I'd like to read :wave: This is interesting stuff!

I've asked for it now! :lol: I'm open to correction by any biochemists around.
I'll put in a few wiki links to explain the terms. I find it easier to look at molecular structure to understand relationships.

We're looking at the general area of how haem can be made & how it's changed to a form which can be excreted by the kidneys -the biochemistry of porphorins. Although rabbits work on a very similar principal to humans there are some differences in biochemistry. I don't know the details in porphorin metabolism.

My hypothesis is that rabbit urine may be like human urine in that the orange pigment in rabbits fed their natural green plant diet, rich in chlorophyll is mainly urobilin, because they eat far more porphorins than they need.

I've noticed that when rabbits are fed the standard diet of mostly hay with a little veg & small portion of pellets their urine is very pale, their caecals are brown, & their waste poops are large round & golden.
As they are transferred to a fresh plant diet their urine gradually darkens, caecals are black with a slight greenish tinge, & their wastes are dark like those of wild buns.
Weight is constant & general condition excellent.
Although the urine is dark, liver function tests, & kidney tests are absolutely normal, as are the red blood cells.
This continued for 6 years in Thumper's case.

[For Thumper the best index that he was dehydrated was that he passed less urine & it was much chalkier - but there was little colour change. (Unlike humans who get more pigment = darker urine when dehydrated)]

There's a situation in injured humans where the biochemical "factory" is working fine, & there's no disease eg several brokem bones which have bled into the tissues such that the patient has lost so much blood from the circulation they need a blood transfusion. WE have added a large amount of haem to the patient's body before the patient can reycle the haem they've lost into the tissues to make more blood. Over the next few days as they break down the blood clot to recycle the haem the patient's body basically "says", "there's far too much haem round here -chuck it" & their urine goes very dark!

I assumed that as my rabbits' biochemistry side was working normally, they were in very good condition, actually surviving their respective illnesses better than would be expected, & they were eating a normal wild rabbit diet, this was normal for buns on a natural diet, & caused by a high porphorin intake beyond their bodily needs, (in this case from diet) leading to high porphorin excretion.

What is a porphorin? A family of molecules with 4 pentagonal carbon rings (pyrrole rings) as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrins. You can see the structure of haem there.

What is haem? It's an essential part of the haemoglobin molecule which is essential fro oxygen transport rounf the body. It's also essential to release the energy from glucose (in the cytochrome oxidase chain) It's important! :lol:

Now look at the structure of Chlorophyll the green pigment in plants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorophyll#Chemical_structure
Can you see that group of 4 pentagonal pyrrole rings? but the big big difference is that haem has a central Fe (iron) atom but chlorophyll has a central Mg (magnesium) atom.
At the bottom of the article you can see what happens to the chlorophyll when plants are "degreened", eg hay. The structure changes markedly - it's degraded a lot.

OK Chemists can synthesise haem from plant chlorophyll. It's lengthy & complicated, & there are several processes. BUT the only way they can break open those 4 pyrrole rings to replace the Mg with the Fe is to use bacteria.

OK I'm guessing here. I suspect that the micro organisms in a rabbit caecum are perfectly capable of breaking open those pyrrole rings in chlorophyll to make the conversion to haem much simpler than the way humans metabolise it. Also the colour of pure chlorophyll is black with a greenish tinge - much like naturally fed bunny caecals.

So that is why I think that the difference in urine & poop colour between more naturally fed buns & the standard domestic diet is different. Purely due to the amount of chlorophyll in the diet & how the body metabolises that family of nutrients -the porphorins.
I'm making some big assumptions, but think they are reasonable to make given the models I do understand, until someone comes up with a better theory.
In the meantime I'll carry on talking about plant pigments cos it's a heck of a lot easier & they are certainly a big factor too!:lol::lol:
Also it's far too long since I opened a biochemistry book!! :lol:

Finally a big difference between rabbit porphorin metabolism & humans, is that when very stressed the urine can be passed pale & turn dark even blood coloured on standing. This is due to uribilin precursors. With very severe stress they can pass red urine looking like just like blood, but when tested with Dipstix it isn't blood. In fact it's porphorins. If humans do that we've got a disease -porphyria, but it's normal for rabbits under severe stress.

Here endeth the treatise on rabbit urine colour!:lol:

I really like you Sierra 323. It's the way you politely suggest "But that doesn't explain what I'm seeing". Good for you. :thumb:

You need to write a book Thumps, I'd buy it

Will give Doughnut lots of rose leaves since she can have them. She's not moulting at the moment but will try her again with dandelion when she does. I guessing bramble leaves are better than rose leaves for digestion but sadly my supplier is leaving my work so will try and find a source near me.

I haven't heard of chickweed before.

I agree with your analysis for what it's worth. Doughnuts poop is darker and orange urine now she's eating grass and leaves. Before it was light golden poops and pale urine.

I think having a rabbit makes you discuss urine and poop so much more, seem to discuss it at least once a week on here.