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I need advice, suggestons, ideas, alternatives, ANYTHING! Please!

Anniebirdy

Alpha Buck
Long story Im afraid... Little Marge soon going under GA for removal of incisors. Checked with the sanctuary who graced me with this precious bun, and although she has need multiple G.A's, she has proven to be a very strong little bunny and always recovered extremely well.. Obviously I will still be concerned and worried on the day, but her good recovery history is a comfort.

Benjamin however, a very different story. Has himself needed GA in the past, always had more risk because of his brain problems. Last G.A was for molars, dental surgery. He was sooooo ill, and really struggled to recover from the G.A. Future G.A to be completely avoided if at all possible, and if desperately needed, an intensive care hospital inpatient plan is the way to go, according to his excellent vet's advice. Even if he seems fine, he must be closely monitored and stay in hospital at least o/night.
To my great dismay, burrs are starting to form again on his molar, to the left of his jaw. It's not cutting or damaging cheek at this point, but it is a bit more noticeable under basic bunny dental check than it was last time.
Its getting bigger. If it dosent somehow stop, it's going to start to damage his mouth. It will HAVE to be dealt with, I can just feel it coming to this. And it would seem there is no other humane way possible of rectifying his molar without a G.A. Benjamins risk factor is sky high now re: G.A. I could quite easily lose him. Untreated, if molar problem continues to advance, he will suffer, he will struggle. This is a nightmare situation. Im not there yet with him, but all the signs are that we are heading in that direction, and not really at a snails pace.
Do any of you know of any, I mean absolutely ANY way round this, to avoid G.A? If a spinal block could be used, Id have that done, even if it had never been tried before, Id push for it. But its his mouth. They'd have to block from his eyebrows down, that's just not going to happen. Local anaesthetic is a no-no, he may be pain free but the trauma would probably kill him, he'd go out of his mind I know.
As I said, it's not upon us yet, but it's coming, so Im desperately trying to find alternatives to G.A. It took him close on 18 hours of collapsing, loss of motor-function control, head shaking and stinking diarrhea to final come back to normal last time.
Im getting quite terrified inside now, it would rip my world to shreds if I lost him. He has battled some dreadful setbacks and pulled back from the very edge time and time again. He WANTS to live, he loves life. Even if they had a technique abroad somewhere, tried and tested and proven, I would take him there. I would do absolutely anything, so anything any of you could possibly suggest I will be so very, very grateful for. I just can not leave any stone unturned over this, not when potentially he is in such grave danger.
 
Oh no poor Benjamin :( I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but didn't want to say nothing. I hope you can find an alternative for him xxx
 
Can you not find a vet who will do conscious dentals? My rabbit was having spurrs burred down, but my vet did them with bunny awake. He had them down about every 10 weeks and it was not a problem. (Since removal of incisors last year, spurs have stopped growing, so need to do them anymore). I would try and find a vet who would consider doing this, if possible.
 
Can you not find a vet who will do conscious dentals? My rabbit was having spurrs burred down, but my vet did them with bunny awake. He had them down about every 10 weeks and it was not a problem. (Since removal of incisors last year, spurs have stopped growing, so need to do them anymore). I would try and find a vet who would consider doing this, if possible.

Hi Ninny, thankyou for your reply. My vet team do do conscious dentals, but not on the molars, only the incisors, and Benjamins problems are right at the back, and very, very difficult if not impossible to access surgically while he is awake. I just dont understand nether, why he is getting burrs on his back teeth, he nearly always has a piece of straw or hay merrily twirling away inside his carrot-crunchers, he's even accepting good pellets, he (well, they have lots of chew/shredding toys but still, these dental problems persist :(
Y'know, from what I'm picking up from reading and reading and studying these bunnies and their problems, it seems to me that your 'basic' uppy-eared bunny with a normal, proper little bunny snout dont seem to have nearly so many problems. The minute you get these specially bred/modified little buns with their appealing flat faces, and cutesy wutesy floppy little ears, you get problems. Or at least it is really beginning to appear that way to me. They do look soooooo appealing and cuddly-toy like, but when do you ever see a natural wild bunikin that looks as though it has ran face first into a wall at 60MPH, or spent 6 months with a body-builders weights attached to its poor lug'oles to make them hang down flat to the side of their little faces. They do look adorably cute, but in such a short time with my two precious rescues, Im begining to think ''the cuter, the crueler''.
I really dont mean to sound sour, I dont have a sour bone in my body, but Im certainly getting sadder because I seeing that more and more bunnies are suffering, including both of mine x
 
Spurs can be caused by many things unfortunately :( I have your "standard uppy eared bun" and he never had teeth problems until he was over 3 years old. He didn't cope well with his last GA and I'm in the same situation as you. He has some spurs growing on his left side and it's starting to affect him so he will need a dental very soon. Just to add to my worries I lost my other bun, Ellie, during a dental last year. :cry:
How old is he? It could easily be genetic or age that is causing the spurs. The best thing you could do is talk to your vet about alternatives, but I'm not sure about conscious dentals, seems to me that the bunny would have to be sedated at least to perform this.
 
You are so right about the breed thing - think of persian cats and pug dogs! The closer they are to nature then generally the healthier they are ( there will always be exceptions before anyone jumps on me!)

So sorry you are having to deal with this - I cannot see any way of avoiding GA if his back teeth get to point of causing him pain and if he is in pain then you have no choice but to take the risk. YOu would not want him to suffer and once he is then any risk is worth taking. Your vets sound very knowledgable and I am sure he would get the best treatment available.
 
Oh no poor Benjamin :( I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but didn't want to say nothing. I hope you can find an alternative for him xxx

Thankyou ripminnie x Kind thoughts help more than you think :) It means a lot when people care xx

Spurs can be caused by many things unfortunately :( I have your "standard uppy eared bun" and he never had teeth problems until he was over 3 years old. He didn't cope well with his last GA and I'm in the same situation as you. He has some spurs growing on his left side and it's starting to affect him so he will need a dental very soon. Just to add to my worries I lost my other bun, Ellie, during a dental last year. :cry:
How old is he? It could easily be genetic or age that is causing the spurs. The best thing you could do is talk to your vet about alternatives, but I'm not sure about conscious dentals, seems to me that the bunny would have to be sedated at least to perform this.

Hi Vegan Bunny :) Benjamin is about 21 months old, his dentals started showing problems about 6 months ago. He was a rescue baby in a dreadful state and close to death when I took him into my care, so I have no idea of his background regarding genetics unfortunately. His jaw was damaged though when I got him. Im so sorry you too are going through this, especially after what you have already been through ((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))
 
[ My vet team do do conscious dentals, but not on the molars, only the incisors[/QUOTE]

Hello again

I am sorry to hear that your vet team only carry out conscious dentals on the incisors and not on the molars. My vet, Guy Carter, at Medivet in Watford (Hertfordshire) can remove spurs from any of the back teeth and is just fantastic - without him my bun would have never made it to his ripe old age of 10½!! I know a lot of the vets won't or can't do conscious dentals on the molars, but there are other vets who can and will. I can only suggest trying to find one of these vets - maybe there is a member on RU in your area who could help point you in the direction of a specialist rabbit vet? I agree that many of the lops do seem to have teeth trouble, because of the shape of their jaw - such a shame.
 
This is such a horrible situation to be in.

My Herbie had severe dental problems and had to have dentals every 2-3 weeks. Luckily he was a tough lad and bounced back well. Like Benjamin, Herbie's problems were too difficult to do consciously, the spurs were tiny and most of his teeth were affected. Poor Herbie didn't have a good molar in his head. As Herbie got older he started taking longer to come round from the anaesthetic and didn't bounce back as quickly and I thought I was going to end up in a situation similar to what you are in now, but my vet reduced the GA down as much as she could and this worked well for Herbie. My vet had been doing Herbie's teeth every few weeks for 6 years, so she knew his mouth well and only needed him under for a very short while.

Sorry I can't be of any more help than this, but I can only go on my experience with Herbie and he didn't have brain problems like Benjamin, with Herbie it was just age that affected his ability to cope with the GA.
 
You are so right about the breed thing - think of persian cats and pug dogs! The closer they are to nature then generally the healthier they are ( there will always be exceptions before anyone jumps on me!)

Im glad Im not alone thinking and worrying this way, I was worried I may come across as a paranoid twerp :roll: It's not really highlighted that much in bunnies though I dont think...? Maybe because it's only kind of recently that these problems are really coming to light perhaps? I think with dogs and cats it's had far more publicity, and good breeders are leaning more to 'outbreeding' rather than 'inbreeding' thank God.


So sorry you are having to deal with this - I cannot see any way of avoiding GA if his back teeth get to point of causing him pain and if he is in pain then you have no choice but to take the risk. YOu would not want him to suffer and once he is then any risk is worth taking. Your vets sound very knowledgable and I am sure he would get the best treatment available.

Aye, it's worrying to say the least :( But yes, my vets, Id trust my daughters life in their hands, my own life. I keep pushing myself to be level headed about it... If it comes to an option of possible death, even high risk, or a 100% g/tee of terrible pain and ongoing suffering for any of my animals, not just the bun, or buns, then 'High Risk' would get the vote every time.
 
Hi Vegan Bunny :) Benjamin is about 21 months old, his dentals started showing problems about 6 months ago. He was a rescue baby in a dreadful state and close to death when I took him into my care, so I have no idea of his background regarding genetics unfortunately. His jaw was damaged though when I got him. Im so sorry you too are going through this, especially after what you have already been through ((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))

Thankyou for your kind words. Gosh 21 months is nothing, poor Benjamin. :'( Has he only had the one dental before? If he was badly treated maybe his dental problems were more diet related and with a lot of hay you could at least reduce the time between dentals, providing he gets through the one he is needing at present. Are his teeth bothering him? Does he seem in pain or is he coping well?
Fiver is ok at the moment and I will try to leave it for as long as possible before sending him for a dental. Obviously I won't leave him so long that he is in a lot of pain but he starting to become grumpy which is a sign that he isn't 100% happy. He is eating and running around the garden, grooming Xena and isn't sitting and grinding his teeth so I know that he isn't in pain, probably just feeling a bit uncomfortable.
Your vets sound very knowledgeable so I'd be quite confident using them since you know them; have you mentioned about conscious dentals? Asked them if they could try it at least? Perhaps you could put him on Metacam once he starts showing signs of pain? This isn't ideal but in the circumstances it is something I would certainly think about doing to extend the time to his dental.
 
For some of our older more at risk bunnies with really bad molars we have requested a gas only anaesthetic and they have always come round really quickly with them. We had a 9 year old with neurological problems along with multiple other issues who had seriously bad teeth and needed regular dentals. we always opted for gas only and he came through every one with flying colours :D

Might be something worth discussing with your vet:?
 
Thankyou for your kind words. Gosh 21 months is nothing, poor Benjamin. :'( Has he only had the one dental before? If he was badly treated maybe his dental problems were more diet related and with a lot of hay you could at least reduce the time between dentals, providing he gets through the one he is needing at present. Are his teeth bothering him? Does he seem in pain or is he coping well?
Fiver is ok at the moment and I will try to leave it for as long as possible before sending him for a dental. Obviously I won't leave him so long that he is in a lot of pain but he starting to become grumpy which is a sign that he isn't 100% happy. He is eating and running around the garden, grooming Xena and isn't sitting and grinding his teeth so I know that he isn't in pain, probably just feeling a bit uncomfortable.
Your vets sound very knowledgeable so I'd be quite confident using them since you know them; have you mentioned about conscious dentals? Asked them if they could try it at least? Perhaps you could put him on Metacam once he starts showing signs of pain? This isn't ideal but in the circumstances it is something I would certainly think about doing to extend the time to his dental.

Like your Fiver, Benjamin seems fine at the moment, all very normal and good, but the bur had grown from the previous check. yes, I will ask my vet about conscious dental, mainly to hear his/their views on the situation. I wonder.... Morphine? Is morphine and a bunny a possibility???
Benjamins problems go back to just before I got him. He was 9 or 10 weeks old when he was entrusted to my care to try and save his life... 9 or 10 weeks.....
His story is here, I played a lot of it down or left it out to make it watchable... A lot of the videos and photos I got of him I just wouldnt publish. I used them/needed them for reference, comparison as the long, touch and go battle to save his life progressed. This edition is viewable though..
 
It means they wake up really quickly as soon as the gas is removed and there are less possible side effects when under. However it doesn't smell nice and putting a mask on them initially can be stressful, so it depends on the individual bunny.

Some of the vets at our practice will not do a gas only GA on rabbits where as others are happy to do it if it is in the best interests of the bunny :) So it will be down to whether your vet is comfortable with this procedure and whether it is in the best interest of your bunny. But it is certainly something to ask about.
 
I think looking for options is good and very important.

What I will just say is that my Badger was exceptionally high risk for any GA, but he came through them all although he too had a recovery period. Also, last time my Dopey had a dental they nearly lost her on the table. She is going to be exceptionally high risk now every time she needs a dental. I'm trying not to focus on the what if's. I'm making sure her diet is as optimal for her as possible and we're enjoying everyday. If the worst comes to the worst then she has had a good quality of life. It will be me and her bonded friends who suffer, not her. Sometimes that can be something to hold onto when faced with these high risk procedures.
 
It means they wake up really quickly as soon as the gas is removed and there are less possible side effects when under. However it doesn't smell nice and putting a mask on them initially can be stressful, so it depends on the individual bunny.

Some of the vets at our practice will not do a gas only GA on rabbits where as others are happy to do it if it is in the best interests of the bunny :) So it will be down to whether your vet is comfortable with this procedure and whether it is in the best interest of your bunny. But it is certainly something to ask about.

It most certainly is, thankyou so much! :love::thumb:

I think looking for options is good and very important.

What I will just say is that my Badger was exceptionally high risk for any GA, but he came through them all although he too had a recovery period. Also, last time my Dopey had a dental they nearly lost her on the table. She is going to be exceptionally high risk now every time she needs a dental. I'm trying not to focus on the what if's. I'm making sure her diet is as optimal for her as possible and we're enjoying everyday. If the worst comes to the worst then she has had a good quality of life. It will be me and her bonded friends who suffer, not her. Sometimes that can be something to hold onto when faced with these high risk procedures.[/QUOTE]

THIS! ^^^^^^
You know Sky-O, when I first got Benjamin, I made a vow to him. I PROMISED him I would take care of him, that I would never let him suffer, that no matter what, his needs would always, always be tended to. I always have, and always will keep that vow. I know I dont even need say it really, because everyone here will know and understand anyway, I am scared but I promised myself nothing, my promises were all to him. I will search and seak and check every possible avenue for the safest, gentlest, the kindest, the best way forward. FOR HIM. :love: :love: :love:
 
You know Sky-O, when I first got Benjamin, I made a vow to him. I PROMISED him I would take care of him, that I would never let him suffer, that no matter what, his needs would always, always be tended to. I always have, and always will keep that vow. I know I dont even need say it really, because everyone here will know and understand anyway, I am scared but I promised myself nothing, my promises were all to him. I will search and seak and check every possible avenue for the safest, gentlest, the kindest, the best way forward. FOR HIM. :love: :love: :love:

So true, it always has to be about the bunny, never ever about us and what we want
 
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