Balancing treatment with stress. So happy post 46! :)

Grim has a lot wrong with him and as a result I have to do a lot too him every day to keep him going. I always worry about making him unhappy with his treatment. If all his treatment stresses him out is there a point when it's too much? Tonight I haven't put him in his nebuliser because I feel like I've just done too much.

I have syringed him pain killers twice and half an hour later after they've had time to work I've massaged the pus out of his eye and cleaned them and applied cream. I've also clean his eyes and applied the cream twice more. I've syringed him 1.34ml of baytril, which is a lot and he hates it and gets very stressed. He usually also has to go in his carry case to be nebulised for twenty minutes and every three days has an injection as well. It wasn't too bad when he would take the baytril and metacam off bread and I could disguise medicine as him having a treat. :?

Do you think it's important to do everything or more important to have a balance? This is long term, Grim will most likely be on the baytril and injections for life. The nebuliser really helps his snuffles but at the moment he has a horrible eye infection that needs treating four times a day. It was so easy when he was eating bread. I would pop him in the nebuliser and when he came out he knew he had a 'treat' of bread waiting for him. All his medicine was hidden in there so he only had one horrible things happen to him each day and every three days would have the injection. That I think is manageable and acceptable, I feel really horrible right now constantly giving him medicine and poking his eyes. And his bum really needs cleaning but I can't bring myself to stress him out that much right now.

i think you've answered your own question. i'm sorry.

I think quality of life always takes priority. Some Rabbits can cope with endless hands on treatment numerous times a day, some find one injection every 3 days too stressful. It really is a totally individual issue and only you are in a position to judge if the stress of treatment is becoming too much for Grim. No-one knows him like you do.

Maybe have another chat with the Vet treating Grim ?

I am sorry that he is now not coping too well

I totally, completely and utterly agree with Jane.

I think them being able to cope with the stress takes priority too. I can't imagine. I know it must be so awful. I know my bunnies wouldn't be able to deal with it especially Bumble.

Ruthie xxx

Oh goodness, I was just a couple of days ago telling my OH about Grim and how amazing you are at doing his intense treatment
I have a vague idea how stressful it is from having to nurse Mimi intensely through her head tilt. It was always in the back of my mind whether it was too much for her
I think Grim will let you know hun, how does he cope with everything on the face of it? Im sure youve tried hiding his meds in a variety of things but I was wondering if you have tried hiding it in abit of porridge and mashed banana?
Is there any way you can stagger the meds abit, perhaps only nebulise every other day or so? Maybe a chat with your vet is a good call.
Sorry Im no help, just wanted to send tons of vibes for your special boy xxx

I do think a balance is very important and as others have said it very much depends on each bunny how much they are able to cope with.

I do think it makes a difference whether the treatment is short term or long term. Lots of hands on care that causes stress for a short time which will hopefully lead to the bunny having a healthy life back is going to be worth it, but if that treatment is going to be for the rest of the bunnies life then issues like quality over quantity come in to play xx

It really is the hardest decision we have to make owning any animal and I think from reading your post that you have already answered your own question.

Personally and this is not an opinion just how I feel myself and having had one of my bunnies pts recently, quality of life is what its all about. While my bunny was struggling to move around but happy and eating then I would have moved heaven and earth but once she was obviously suffering and distressed and not eating then it was time to say goodbye.

Talk to your vet and ask them to be totally honest with you.

Sending you

Thank you for replying everyone.

I moved them both inside to monitor Grim a bit better. He seems to be doing a little better inside and is moving around more. Outside he was sitting in the sleeping area all day, only leaving to eat or go to the litter tray and then returning to the sleeping area. In my room he's been moving around a little more and lying down. I'm also able to just quickly give him any medicine he needs rather than picking him out of the hutch, bringing him in, doing it and then letting him back outside. I tried him with bread again last night and he got really excited about it, so I'm going to try hiding his baytril in it tonight and see how it goes.

Grim deals with stress and pain very well to be honest, but to me that doesn't mean I can just put him through it. :?
He's not been 'happy' for a couple of weeks now. He has all the medicine he needs and it's a hour and a half trip to the vets and back so about four hours in total including the appointment. I don't know if I should take him up or not. Smoo needs her VHD. I put it off for a week as I didn't want to drag Grim up to Norwich with her and she gets stressed alone. I was contemplating seeing if my vet minded me getting her VHD done in Yarmouth (I'm sure she wouldn't).

I think I should take him up and have a good long discussion with my vet. Perhaps there is some other treatment we could try? :?

If he'll have the baytril in bread then that eliminates a lot of the stress but if he's still not happy I need to try and find out why, what's causing it and if it can be fixed or not. He does have down days but this has been going on too long. He's coming up to six now and he's been ill throughout his whole life. To be honest I didn't think he'd make it this far. I've always given a long list of what's wrong with Grim and then finished off by saying how happy he is and what a good quality of life he has, but he's not happy right now.

What happens if he just has the Depocillin and not Baytril ?

Been thinking about all this, is Grim trying to tell you that it is the oral abx that are now making him feeling poorly- ie the Baytril

The mucky bum being another pointer to cecal dysbiosis. Does he know that the Baytril is the culprit, the thing that is tipping his tummy over the edge. Hence his sudden refusal to eat bread with Baytril in it?

Also, his guts are being heavily challenged on many fronts- abx therapy, no hay, higher than 'normal' carb intake, stress from sore eyes .......

I wonder if he is saying 'it's not my snuffles etc now that is making me feel poorly, it's my tummy that is all 'wrong' :?

ETA is he maintaining his weight and has he started to drink more in the last few weeks ?

Jack's-Jane said:

What happens if he just has the Depocillin and not Baytril ?

Been thinking about all this, is Grim trying to tell you that it is the oral abx that are now making him feeling poorly- ie the Baytril

The mucky bum being another pointer to cecal dysbiosis. Does he know that the Baytril is the culprit, the thing that is tipping his tummy over the edge. Hence his sudden refusal to eat bread with Baytril in it?

Also, his guts are being heavily challenged on many fronts- abx therapy, no hay, higher than 'normal' carb intake, stress from sore eyes .......

I wonder if he is saying 'it's not my snuffles etc now that is making me feel poorly, it's my tummy that is all 'wrong' :?

ETA is he maintaining his weight and has he started to drink more in the last few weeks ?

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That's a very good point.
He has never eaten hay and always had a messy bum but it might just be a bit too much after so long.
The only issue is when the baytril is stopped his runny nose gets a lot worse and he's constantly sneezing which must also cause stress.
It's been the combination of penicillin and baytril that has finally stopped the sneezing. Such a hard decision. I think I'll monitor him over the weekend and then ring my vet on Monday as see if she wants him in or can suggest anything. If we need to stop the baytril to his his stomach a rest I wonder if there's anything else we can do to keep the sneezing at bay.

He's still eating fine and drinking normally. I'm certain it's not his teeth as I know now what his behaviour is when he needs a dental.

Thanks for thinking of him Jane.

Jenova said:

That's a very good point.
He has never eaten hay and always had a messy bum but it might just be a bit too much after so long.
The only issue is when the baytril is stopped his runny nose gets a lot worse and he's constantly sneezing which must also cause stress.
It's been the combination of penicillin and baytril that has finally stopped the sneezing. Such a hard decision. I think I'll monitor him over the weekend and then ring my vet on Monday as see if she wants him in or can suggest anything. If we need to stop the baytril to his his stomach a rest I wonder if there's anything else we can do to keep the sneezing at bay.

He's still eating fine and drinking normally. I'm certain it's not his teeth as I know now what his behaviour is when he needs a dental.

Thanks for thinking of him Jane.

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I was thinking more of his Kidney function than his teeth when I asked about his weight and water intake.

Jack's-Jane said:

I was thinking more of his Kidney function than his teeth when I asked about his weight and water intake.

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In that area I am almost certain he's fine. He's a good weight and eats and drinks normally. :wave:

Been thinking about Grim a lot.

I've just removed some awful smelling poo from his bum and tail. I hate doing it because it's usually all on his balls (well the empty skin, he's been done) and I worry so much about hurting him.

I think your theory on his stomach might be right Jane.

The other issue is of course his eyes. His left eye is not getting any better. The infection smells so foul when I massage it out, I clean it up, put the chloramphenicol in and within hours it's just as bad. I limit it to two massages a day as I don't want to hurt him or cause damage.

The only time he has been this 'sad' was the winter I moved him outside. It was a drastic action and it worked, not that I recommend it. The heating in the house was making the infections worse and the cold outside helped clear things up. Well it's not that warm right now, so will he get worse in the summer? Obviously an option is to flush his tear duct which would have to be done under GA. I will see if my vet wants to do this.

But the other issue is if it is his stomach playing up too the baytril would have to be stopped. This would mean he would start sneezing again. When he went on the baytril and penicillin we discussed that this was just to make him comfortable until his time comes. It's not a cure but gives him a good quality of life. If we stop this treatment then his quality of life will be greatly reduced and I don't know if it would be fair to let him carry on constantly sneezing.

We could try another antibiotic, something we could use with the nebuliser. My vet was worried about any strong antibiotic administered in this way getting into his stomach. Does anyone have any advice regarding this?

I've thought about this before but I don't know if it's too extreme. Would removing his eye or eyes be an option? He has very little sight and no sight at all with all the infection. If I move anything slightly he runs into it. Could the eye and all the tear duct tissue be removed so he would not be in pain and not get any infections? Or is it unfair on him to do this?

I'm just not sure what can be done right now. He's never been so unhappy for so long. If I can't find a way to make him happy I think it might be his time.

I'm sorry you and Grim are struggling I don't know what to suggest but thinking of you both here and hope he can come through it

Thank you. I'm going to go and give him snuggles now.

I'm reading, but I'm so sorry, I don't have much to add to be honest.

Sky-O said:

I'm reading, but I'm so sorry, I don't have much to add to be honest.

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Me too.

You know him best and have worked so hard to give him the best quality of life, I don't think anyone can give you any more advice TBH, it is totally yur decision along with advice from the vets that know him. But we will all support you whatever you decide xx

Thanks everyone.

He did a flop last night, but then Smoo humped him. She's been doting on him all morning though.