success with giving Baytril/thoughts about snuffles

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

I think that most of us find that our buns object violently to Baytril. Benjie was getting quite stressed to the point where I feared it was counterproductive.
Neither Thumper nor Benjie are used to being hand fed, smell their food carefully, usually chin it!, not easily decieved!!

With an ABx like Baytril, it's essential to get the whole dose in, every single drop or else at best it doesn't work & at worst with repeated underdosing we can get resistant organisms. A stress free method of delivery had become essential.

Baytril on toast didn't work for us - he could smell it. But he loves his echinacea on toast (less than a sugarcube size)
I also found the baytril tended to soak through the toast & out the other side - no good.

ETA Baytril given this way seems to be less effective.
Plan b) Make up marbocyl as an oral preparation. This is much more palatable.

Echinacea was also initially given on toast but is also less effective. Trying to give it on a basil leaf.
Why do I use echinacea? It is said to reduce high cortisol levels caused by stress. The high cortisol levels can suppress the immune response. So I'm doing all I can to help his own immune sytem fight the infection too.

Jenova · Feb 16, 2012

thumps_ said:
I think that most of us find that our buns object violently to Baytril. Benjie was getting quite stressed to the point where I feared it was counterproductive.
Neither Thumper nor Benjie are used to being hand fed, smell their food carefully, usually chin it!, not easily decieved!!

With an ABx like Baytril, it's essential to get the whole dose in, every single drop or else at best it doesn't work & at worst with repeated underdosing we can get resistant organisms. A stress free method of delivery had become essential.

Baytril on toast didn't work for us - he could smell it. But he loves his echinacea on toast (less than a sugarcube size)
I also found the baytril tended to soak through the toast & out the other side - no good.

Plan b) Completely dry out a 2" length of the crust of brown bread, about 1/4" deep. This will hold 0.52ml Bayrtil & the crust stops it coming out through the other side. Then I run the 2 drops of echinacea & golden seal (which he loves) on top of the baytril, (& more recently his bisolvon). Not only does every crumb go down but he rummages in his food bowl for more!

Why do I use echinacea? It is said to reduce high cortisol levels caused by stress. The high cortisol levels can suppress the immune response. So I'm doing all I can to help his own immune sytem fight the infection too.

Amazing.

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

In fact it was your observation about what happened to Grimlock when he got stressed from taking ABx which really started me thinking Jenova. You might like to share it with us all again here.

Vita · Feb 16, 2012

In what form do you feed the echinacea?

I regularly give my bun dried coneflower (echinacea) which evidently won't have the predictable dosage amounts of tablets etc.

Jenova · Feb 16, 2012

thumps_ said:
In fact it was your observation about what happened to Grimlock when he got stressed from taking ABx which really started me thinking Jenova. You might like to share it with us all again here.

I'm just going to quote myself. I have an illness or something and it's a bit too hard for me to concentrate on writing it again so I hope you don't mind.

Jenova said:
I 100% agree about stress reduction. This is what I have been experiencing with Grim lately. I hide his baytril in bread. He started not to eat all the bread and I was worried about him not getting the full dose. So I started to syringe him instead, 'locking' him between my legs and my body (I sort of crouch over him) as it's the only way to hold him in place, he gets out of bunny burritos. He was quite stressed by this and hated the baytril. So even though he was getting the full dose he was also getting stress. And he got worse!

So now we're back to bread and if he doesn't eat it all one night then that's okay, because he's better off. Stress reduction is more important than the medication in my opinion.

...

I love all inventive ways of getting medicine into rabbits if it doesn't cause stress.

With Grim's sore mouth he has bread rather than toast and he's back to going crazy for it which is a relief!

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

Vita said:
In what form do you feed the echinacea?

I regularly give my bun dried coneflower (echinacea) which evidently won't have the predictable dosage amounts of tablets etc.

I'm currently giving an alcohol free combination extract of echinaecea & goldenseal. It's a dark brown liquid with a dropper. (Preparations with golden seal in them are about to be withdrawn because Golden seal has become an endangered plant.)
I could well be predjudiced by my training in orthodox medicine but rightly or wrongly see the major problem with herbal medicines as being the difficulty of standardising the dose. The active compounds can fluctuate widely according to growing conditions, eg water /sunlight as well as the point of growth at which they are harvested.

My own buns seem to know what they need or quickly learn, so for standard maintenance, with the plants I use, I prefer to free feed the plant & just keeping a watch over them. They know what they're doing & I don't!!

Thumper could manage his GI tract issues by diet far better than I could have ever done. I knew he was hitting problems by what he was eating before there were any signs. He kept himself remarkably ileus free, by achieving a knife edge balance, & slight variations in what he ate each meal.

Bengie had minor dysbiosis on arrival which I intended to treat with orthodox dietary measures alone, but he found the store of blackthorn leaves, jumped in & sorted out his tummy in a couple of days. :shock: He doesn't want them now! Fair enough - tummy sorted.

Poor Benjie hasn't had a break since new year. Unwanted & found loose in the center of a large town - terrified. Stayed with the finder for just over 2 weeks. Then brought to me - with snuffles, 2 abscesses, (almost certainly pastuerellosis) & mild dysbiosis. I give him Abx, then his plums drop & he's stoned out of his mind on testosterone so he had an urgent neuter. We thought we'd got through it, but the snuffles returned on Sun. I had to do all possible to boost his immune system a fast as poss.
When we're safely through it, I'll probably give him the plant as regular maintenance.

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

Jenova said:
I'm just going to quote myself. I have an illness or something and it's a bit too hard for me to concentrate on writing it again so I hope you don't mind.

I love all inventive ways of getting medicine into rabbits if it doesn't cause stress.
With Grim's sore mouth he has bread rather than toast and he's back to going crazy for it which is a relief!

Wishing you a speedy recovery Jenova.
I'm relieved that Grim is back to his normal self in terms of bread, I'll be even more pleased when he's completely OK.
Thanks so much for posting, because it's the clearest demonstration of the effect of stress on the efficacy of Baytril in buns I've ever seen.

I puzzled for years why the response to Baytril in bunnies has been much poorer than I would expect, from using a near relative ABx in humans. Of course I was thinking human - wrong dose, wrong organism, not getting to the right place.

Even in humans if we knock out the immune system, we're seriously stretched to control an infection.

I've been trying to see it from a bunny's view point.
Any infection & they're less fit = more at risk to predation AND at more risk of losing their place in the social heirarchy if challenged to fight.
With snuffles, they are obligate nose breathers, so any narrowing of the nasal passages by inflammatory swelling or thick secretions must be highly distressing.
They use smell both to recognise individuals/predators & together with whiskers lips & more taste buds than we have - safe food from poisonous foods. I imagined that they might feel more vulnerable in several ways if sense of smell is compromised.
They may also be experiencing the mother of a headache if their sinuses are blocked. PAIN is a big stress factor.

I just thought along the lines that a bunged up nose isn't much of a problem to us, but I can see it's a different ball game for bunnies.
I was taken aback by how thick & tenacious the infected secretions are. Quite surprised that Benjie had managed to sneeze it out!
Any sense in my thoughts? Thinking is dangerous as far as I'm concerned!:lol:

Boudicca · Feb 16, 2012

Congratulations on the sneaky dried crust technique

It's been really interesting reading about the combination of echinacea and Baytril! I occassionally give my two the dried echinacea (Coneflower) will it still be of any use or has all the useful 'stuff' been lost in the drying process? Also a few weeks back I was looking for info on Baytril dosing! Our vet prescribes a fairly low dose twice daily but a few comments I received on here suggested most recent thought is that much higher doses given once a day were more effective! Do you have any info on this or know of where this might be in any recent papers?

I wish Benjie a speedy recovery!

Jack's-Jane · Feb 16, 2012

I am learning more here !!

Thanks Benjie........oh and Judy too :lol:

Get those WBCs fighting off the infection Benjie

prettylupin · Feb 16, 2012

Fascinating and am so pleased you have found a way to get his meds in properly..... brilliant!

:wave:

We can always rely on you to make that little extra effort that can teach us all something new, thank you

:wave:

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

Boudicca said:
Congratulations on the sneaky dried crust technique It's been really interesting reading about the combination of echinacea and Baytril! I occassionally give my two the dried echinacea (Coneflower) will it still be of any use or has all the useful 'stuff' been lost in the drying process? Also a few weeks back I was looking for info on Baytril dosing! Our vet prescribes a fairly low dose twice daily but a few comments I received on here suggested most recent thought is that much higher doses given once a day were more effective! Do you have any info on this or know of where this might be in any recent papers?

I wish Benjie a speedy recovery!

I'm actually as limited as all of you re information. I've no internet access to the "meaty" professional vet papers. TBH I'd find it tough going to understand them now, because my basic science has been superceeded by better theories. Immunology is a whole new field since I qualified, but wasn't pertinant to my working life in Accident & Emergency. Anyone who has studied immunology at uni, in any of the biological sciences, would have a better grasp of the subject than I do now. However some basic principals remain the same.

Re coneflower I can't answer your question from knowledge, but I can advise you how to find out.

If your bunnies are eating it & actively selecting it they know it's helping them.
Bunnies are different from us in that when given wild plants they will select what they need, not like us by pleasant taste.
I've noticed that young buns experiment a lot & try out inappropriate things. Benjie was fascinated by my food at 1st. but not allowed it. He ignores it now!

This doesn't apply to human veg which is high in nutrients. Bunnies will often select these above all because they are so rare in the wild that they're they're a huge & infrequent bonus. Obviously such plants as there are, get eaten by many species before they've grown to any size & therefore become rare because they're eaten before they can seed. Our veg has been "genetically engineered" over centuries selecting for flavour, high nutrient content, & low fiber in the process of cultivation. The wild forms of our veg aren't worth picking let alone eating as a staple for us!

Thumper wouldn't eat sloe leaves at all until about 6-8 weeks before leaf fall, once the berries had ripened. I don't actually know why this should be. I assume it's because that's when they become effective for GI motility problems because neither would he eat many other safe tree leaves. He'd suddenly eat them voraciously when they reached this particular stage of growth.
Benjie shows a similar pattern of eating along with his "experimentation".

Liz47 · Feb 16, 2012

Well done and thankyou for sharing, hope Benjie soon feels better. Boris had to be on Baytril for 15 days for a pre neuter infection, he ate it straight off his food, actually licked it off as well, odd bunny!

Hugo's There · Feb 16, 2012

The dose of baytril is quite small. Dexter is on 2.4ml and it is a nightmare getting it in to him. We get it in but he lets it drip back out

But not sure what we can try to get that amount into him :?

Regarding echinacea, when Eddie needed it to boost his immune system we were prescribed it by our vet. She said it was far stronger than anything you can buy over the counter

So it might be worth asking for it that way

GrahamL · Feb 16, 2012

This echi stuff - is it something commonly used in bunnies to help boost the immune system?

I'm going to do my own research but could someone explain what it is, where i can get it and its uses/properties?

Sounds like something i could make use of...?

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

GrahamL said:
This echi stuff - is it something commonly used in bunnies to help boost the immune system?

I'm going to do my own research but could someone explain what it is, where i can get it and its uses/properties?

Sounds like something i could make use of...?

:wave: Hi Graham. Echinacea is a daisy like plant also called the coneflower.
It is used in herbal medicine, including vet herbal medicine (for bunnies). It is marketed as "boosting the immune system" but what it actually does is suppress the release of cortisol which is one of the hormones released during stress. It's the high cortisol levels which suppress the immune system & can precipitate ileus in rabbits.
At low doses or fresh plant it can be given continuously. At very high doses some people recommend a break eg 5 days taking it & 2 days break so it doesn't over suppress cortisol which leads to a medical condition similar to Addison's disease in humans.
It will interact by reducing the effect of corticosteroids given medicinally too.
[There is a good resume of it's properties in Kathy Smith Rabbit care in the 21st. century page167. She's a good author with 20 years in the pharmaceutical industry, & 1st hand experience of using alternative medicines in her own buns.]
Thanks for getting me to check it out. It's actually recommended for snuffles & other chronic relapsing bacterial infections in combination with ABx.

ETA it's available on internet as dried plant - the roots are the most effective part. There is also a tincture (alcohol extraction). the amount of alcohol is insignificant for buns. I have an alcohol free extraction combined with Golden Seal but won't be able to get it much longer. You don't need a prescription, but do tell your vet if you give it.

thumps_ · Feb 16, 2012

Hugo's There said:

The dose of baytril is quite small. Dexter is on 2.4ml and it is a nightmare getting it in to him. We get it in but he lets it drip back out But not sure what we can try to get that amount into him :?

Click to expand...

Hugo's There said:
Regarding echinacea, when Eddie needed it to boost his immune system we were prescribed it by our vet. She said it was far stronger than anything you can buy over the counter So it might be worth asking for it that way

Yes, I'm aware it's a low dose. He's a young bunny - plums only dropped a couple of weeks ago. I was amazed by the effect on his abscesses thigh & sole of the foot. He didn't need any surgery, just the top easing off the abscess on his thigh. Both now have vigorous fur growth & absolutely normal skin. So that dose is highly effective.

I know exactly the situation you describe with Dexter. Thumper never ever took to his Zantac & did exactly the same thing although I never needed to restrain him.
In his case it was keeping the chin at least level. His mouth held about 0.2 ml. I'd wait seemingly for ever for him to swallow. I used to give him alternate metacam 0.2 ml as a treat! & even dipped the tip of the Zantac syringe into the metacam bottle, which fooled him until he learned the routine!!!

In Thumper's case it was just him expressing dislike, rather than a major issue. HIS major issue was critical care & even an experienced vet couldn't get that in. When Thumper said NO Thumper meant NO & I loved him for being like that.

Maizey · Feb 16, 2012

Hi Judy,just seen this thread and hope you dont mind my input

.Echinacea needs,ideally,to get straight into the mucus membranes in the mouth to reach its full potential.When my beautiful bridge bunny,Maizey,started his battle with snuffles,at roughly the same age as your baby boy,we started with baytril,it worked while he was having the drug then the symptoms would return within weeks,as you know i tried everything to no avail

.After speaking to someone else who had gone down the herbal route I made my own herbal concoction for him which actually worked and kept him well and clear from snuffles

.I made a fresh batch every day and gave it three times daily in a basil leave,luckily he was a very tame bun so kept stress levels to a minimum.When my beautiful bride bunny Blue got a snuffles related illness I made the same recipe,sadly he wasnt as tame as Maizey,so i put the meds on a bit of toast which he took willingly,im afraid it didnt have the same effect as the toast has absorbed the echinacea mix so therefore went into his tummy rather than being absorbed in the mouth,this makes all the difference in my experience.
I do agree with you that keeping a bun stress free stops the immune system going into shutdown mode.Fingers crossed for Benjie xxxxx

Hugo's There · Feb 16, 2012

thumps_ said:
Yes, I'm aware it's a low dose. He's a young bunny - plums only dropped a couple of weeks ago. I was amazed by the effect on his abscesses thigh & sole of the foot. He didn't need any surgery, just the top easing off the abscess on his thigh. Both now have vigorous fur growth & absolutely normal skin. So that dose is highly effective.

I know exactly the situation you describe with Dexter. Thumper never ever took to his Zantac & did exactly the same thing although I never needed to restrain him.
In his case it was keeping the chin at least level. His mouth held about 0.2 ml. I'd wait seemingly for ever for him to swallow. I used to give him alternate metacam 0.2 ml as a treat! & even dipped the tip of the Zantac syringe into the metacam bottle, which fooled him until he learned the routine!!!
In Thumper's case it was just him expressing dislike, rather than a major issue. HIS major issue was critical care & even an experienced vet couldn't get that in. When Thumper said NO Thumper meant NO & I loved him for being like that.

Sorry i wasn't criticising your bunny's dose. I just meant I would probably need a whole loaf to do what you suggested with Dexters dose, but your idea is great for low doses Dexter is a strong muscular lad and not easy to hold on the best of occasions! We even gave up trying to hide his quarter frusemide tablet in an apple as he got wise to it

GrahamL · Feb 16, 2012

Thanks Judy, i'll speak to our vet about it, as Ginger seems to be on a low again so need anything i can to boost her immune response, damn pasteurella

Santa · Feb 16, 2012

Santa regularly had echinacea, and she LOVED the taste. I used to use it as the base to mix other medicines with...I often dissolved metronidazole or doxycycline tablets in a drop of echinacea in water, and she would just drink it happily straight out of the syringe. When she wasn't on oral abx I would mix the bisolvon in with it. From the research I did (slightly hazy memory now) the echinacea purpurae is the variety with the best "immune-boosting" properties - there is another one (echinacea angostifolia or something) which isn't said to be as effective, so it is worth checking as I found the cheaper ones contained less purpurae if any at all.

I'm really glad you've found an effective and stress-free way to give the baytril; I must admit that my vet now gives me the injectable type and I do a daily injection instead if it's needed. I've found it far easier for both of us :lol:

Good luck with your little one xxx

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