dysbiosis

What are the main symptoms of dysbiosis?

Vet isn't sure what is wrong with my little girl. Faecal samples have come back negative to anything nasty.

Uneaten Cecotophs
Unformed Cecotrophs
Mucky bum
'Doughy' abdomen
Reduced gut motility
Diarrhoea (usually if associated with abx therapy)
Bloat

Hmmm, well she eats her caecals, her poops are odd sizes, some huge and some tiny, they don't seem crumbly despite being on hay, fibreplex and profibre only, sometimes they are really squishy. And her tummy rubbles quite loudly. She eats hay really well. So doesn't sound like dysbiosis does it?

Can you post a picture of her poos to give an example of the abnormal ones ?

Is she on any medication ?

Maintaining her weight?

Drinking a lot ?

How old is she ?

When all tests were exhausted for one of my Buns (Harry) who presented in a similar way, but worse as he was not able to keep himself clean and he sometimes passed a jelly-like liquid, a diagnosis of Inflammatory Bowel Disease was made. He was started on Sulphasalazine and after just 2 weeks he was 100% back to normal. Treatment was stopped and he has never had a relapse (touches wood)

Jack's-Jane said:

Can you post a picture of her poos to give an example of the abnormal ones ?

Is she on any medication ?

Maintaining her weight?

Drinking a lot ?

How old is she ?

When all tests were exhausted for one of my Buns (Harry) who presented in a similar way, but worse as he was not able to keep himself clean and he sometimes passed a jelly-like liquid, a diagnosis of Inflammatory Bowel Disease was made. He was started on Sulphasalazine and after just 2 weeks he was 100% back to normal. Treatment was stopped and he has never had a relapse (touches wood)

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I will try to post a picture later when I finish work.

No medication, she is the epileptic one, she had one dose of Phenobarbital and produced black squishy poops so we decided to get her tummy right first.
She has had some infracol but not since yesterday morning now as that wasn't helping.

She is about 5 months old and seems to be growing well and maintaining her weight

She keeps herself very clean down below and have never seen a jelly liquid or anything.

She seems to drink a "normal" amount I would say, not excessive at all.

Has she had her Liver function checked and has she been wormed ?

Full bloods and EC done, all returned fine and normal. 5 days of Lapizole done for the worming.

Are the abnormal poos a daily event, or just now and again ?

Sounds as though it is some sort of motility problem, maybe neurological in origin given her other medical history :?

Every day unfortunately, I was wondering if it may be neurological, I just want them to be good enough to get her spayed if possible as she is a hormonal little madam!! At the moment the vet is reluctant to spay due to the gurgling noises. We know it is a risk of fits post anaesthetic but the vet thinks she should be ok as her epilepsy symptoms are so minor at the moment and getting less frequent, she has not had a full blown "fit" as such.

Just wanted to send some vibes.
Could it be a problem with the formation of the gut?

MichG said:

Every day unfortunately, I was wondering if it may be neurological, I just want them to be good enough to get her spayed if possible as she is a hormonal little madam!! At the moment the vet is reluctant to spay due to the gurgling noises. We know it is a risk of fits post anaesthetic but the vet thinks she should be ok as her epilepsy symptoms are so minor at the moment and getting less frequent, she has not had a full blown "fit" as such.

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If you would like to try, I have a supply of Blackthorn or Sloe leaves & would send you some if you pm me an address or tell you what I know about them.
My bridge bun Thumper had serious gut problems all his life which mimicked the neurological problem dysautonomia. These leaves which are avidly eaten by wild buns got him through to the age of 6years 4 months,despite a continuous battle with stasis & dysbiosis.

My former vet worked in an exotics center, & used them effectively for hospitalised buns with stasis whatever the cause. I have her assurance that it will not make a situation worse whatever the diagnosis.

My new bun Benjie had mild dysbiosis on arrival. He found the box of dried leaves, & jumped in it eating quite a lot. His dysbiosis cleared within 2-3 days. He doesn't eat them now.

I would be very interested to see photos of her poops.

thumps_ said:

If you would like to try, I have a supply of Blackthorn or Sloe leaves & would send you some if you pm me an address or tell you what I know about them.
My bridge bun Thumper had serious gut problems all his life which mimicked the neurological problem dysautonomia. These leaves which are avidly eaten by wild buns got him through to the age of 6years 4 months,despite a continuous battle with stasis & dysbiosis.

My former vet worked in an exotics center, & used them effectively for hospitalised buns with stasis whatever the cause. I have her assurance that it will not make a situation worse whatever the diagnosis.

My new bun Benjie had mild dysbiosis on arrival. He found the box of dried leaves, & jumped in it eating quite a lot. His dysbiosis cleared within 2-3 days. He doesn't eat them now.

I would be very interested to see photos of her poops.

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I was hoping you would see this. I was wondering whether it was similar to what Thumper had, or even the same condition but I just don't know enough to comment.

We had a young bunny who had similar symptoms but also passed mucus, we came to the conclusion he had an allergy to manufactured food as nothing else showed up in any tests and no medication helped. He went on to a hay/dried herb diet only. Sadly we never got to find out if it would cure him completely as he died under a routine GA. But it did give us a chance to have a PM done which showed nothing wrong at all which we felt supported the theory of an allergy :?

Jenova said:

I was hoping you would see this. I was wondering whether it was similar to what Thumper had, or even the same condition but I just don't know enough to comment.

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I don't think anyone knows enough to comment except that Thumper was the 1st known case of that type of tissue response to TB in rabbits in the UK. We're still waiting to see which species of TB bacteria it was.
So the chances are vanishingly small.

That being said, the microscopic examination was done at a research center. They were expecting to see loss of nerve cells due to an autoimmune response to (presumably) a viral infection. There wasn't. Fortunately the histopathologist wouldn't give up until he'd cracked it! It wouldn't have been diagnosed at an ordinary pm. Unless the costs had been covered mainly by the research grant & most generously by 2 of the vets who cared for Thumper, they would have been prohibative. So there could well be more than the 1 case. It's much less common than dysautonomia in rabbits (rare). There were some subtle differences with Thumper.

The chances of diagnosing Thumper's illness while he was alive, even were we looking for it were very small. Unusually for rabbits there were very few bacteria but a large tissue reaction.
IMO here we have a very clear relationship of onset of illness to the 1st. dose of phenobarb. I don't know the effect of phenobarb on rabbit gut.

Hugo's There said:

We had a young bunny who had similar symptoms but also passed mucus, we came to the conclusion he had an allergy to manufactured food as nothing else showed up in any tests and no medication helped. He went on to a hay/dried herb diet only. Sadly we never got to find out if it would cure him completely as he died under a routine GA. But it did give us a chance to have a PM done which showed nothing wrong at all which we felt supported the theory of an allergy :?

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Not sure if I have done the right thing but she is booked in for spay today as she has become really hormonal. Vet said her tummy feels fine and the gurgling seems to have settled, poos still not quite right but vet is happy to do it now. Just hope it doesn't go bad, and I hope it will calm her down and make her happier. Feel sick

The last bunny anaesthetic I had I lost my little girl, also lost a bun in November, December and January just don't want to lose one this month too and my Snoopy has to have a dental at the end of the month

hope all goes well for you both looks like you have had some bad times fingers crossed

MichG said:

Hmmm, well she eats her caecals, her poops are odd sizes, some huge and some tiny, they don't seem crumbly despite being on hay, fibreplex and profibre only, sometimes they are really squishy. And her tummy rubbles quite loudly. She eats hay really well. So doesn't sound like dysbiosis does it?

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How long has she been on this hay only diet?

Everying crossed & every good wish for her spay today.

So sorry I missed this earlier. I hope it went well.

Surgery went well, she is bright, has pooped and eaten bits and pieces.
Spoke to Aggi (one of my 2 vets!!) who mentioned that the dysautonomia had crossed her mind but everything else has to be ruled out first and it is extremely difficult to diagnose.

She also said that she is seeing someone today whose bun has VERY similar symptoms, except is on his 3rd bout of stasis in 6 weeks but now has diahorrea. Woman wants to spend no money on her bun doing diagnostics or hospitalisation and will more than likely opt for PTS Aggi is going to see if she can persuade her to sign him over, then do some diagnostics and get him through what ever he has at the moment then if suitable and not contageous he might come to be bonded with Daisy. I am really hoping Aggi will take them both on when the weather is nicer and they can go outside. I would love to keep her but promised OH she is only a foster, I really hope Aggi can take her on in the spring/summer as she will get a lovely home with a vet