VERY underweight Harlequin bun and Dutch bun...

After the death of Fiddlesticks a few weeks back, I've been getting concerned about Pumpkin and Dexter's weight. Tonight, I decided that as the OH was here, I would give them a good health check and bring them in to be weighed.

I checked the other 4 over and they feel chunky... Can feel their spine and need to press in a tiny bit to feel their ribs. When I checked Pumpkin and Dexter however, I can feel their ribs very easily and picking them up, they feel so tiny.

So, checked their weight... Did it on my scales with me so won't be 100% accurate. Dexter was 1.4/1.5kg, which, I think for a dutch, puts him 0.5/0.6kg underweight.

Pumpkin, is a harlequin, a small one though... She's 1.7/1.8kg, so around 1kg underweight although, in all honesty, she doesn't feel it. Dexter feels worst.

I know, ideally, you're not supposed to split a bonded group but in November when D and P had their vacc's, D was 2.1kg and P was 2.6kg (maybe 2.7kg). That's an awful lot smaller. Due to Fiddles passing away and feeling so tiny when I found her, I'm really worried. So, have brought P and D in and put them in the bathroom (no heating on in there and it's cold all the time in there anyway...tiled floors, felted roof (not a proper house roof on it as it's a rubbish extension!)

I've put some veg in for them and their hay... No pellets as ran out yesterday and OH just got home tonight.

What should I do????? Fill them up together until their weight gets better? How would I do this, just unlimited pellets, bit more veg/herbs and their usual hay?)

Then what do I do? Re-bond with the others and hope for the best again? I'm not sure I can do this bonded 6 thing... They are just constantly back and forth with weight and I just find it hard to make sure they are all getting their fair share. First it was Fiddles who died, now who else?

Would I be better splitting them? If I were to do 2 trios, what would the accomodation have to be like? I'm not even sure I could do 2 trios... Milly doesn't really fit into either group. It's Dexter, Pumpkin and their 3 babies (not so much babies anymore as they're just over a year - from the accidental litter)

I don't know how I'm going to do all this. I don't have the garden space :/ If they had to be split, Milly would need to go and I don't think I could bond Bramble and put him outside because my garden is tiny. I can't knock down the outhouse yet as we don't have the funds... So one group would need bought a hutch/run combo and one would have to stay in the shed till it was knocked down. Then, I could do two hutches/runs or two playhouses/runs but nothing else will really fit... And I could only have a 6x2 hutch with an attached 6x4 run. I honestly don't think I could could much bigger than that...

What am I going to do I'm so worried....

ETA: Just realised, when the outhouse is taken down (the stone one we have now, where the 6 buns live), which should be around March/May time, I will have the room for a bigger run. So, they could have the 6x2x2 Happy hutch with the 6x4 run underneath and I could add on the 4foot run extension too.

Don't suddenlyincrease their food by huge amounts in case it gives them runny poops, just give a little more every day. Have you had their teeth checked recently?

Can you have Dexter and Pumpkin as a pair, and leave the rest together?

abbymarysmokey said:

Don't suddenlyincrease their food by huge amounts in case it gives them runny poops, just give a little more every day. Have you had their teeth checked recently?

Can you have Dexter and Pumpkin as a pair, and leave the rest together?

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Ah, ok... Didn't think of that! I'll add more food gradually. Teeth were checked in Dec when they had their 2nd jabs. They were completely fine. Neither of them have ever had teeth problems, neither did Fiddles. Just checked on them both too and they're both eating hay and veg like they've been starved

I just feel that with a big group, Fiddles was pushed out and now Dex and Pumpkin are too.

The other 4 could in theory be left together but the outhouse is due to come down soon. It's the 3 girls who seem to be dominant so Milly is also feeling a bit thinner but not enough to warrant concern. The 3 girls are really chunky so it's obvious they've been taking all the food.

The problem I have is the outhouse is coming down. I don't physicall have the room for accomodation for 4 buns in together and I honestly don't feel that Milly would work on her own in there. I think she may with Dexter and Pumpkin but those two have such a strong bond that I'm not sure being a trio would work.

Then, if I had 2 trios, Bramble would have to stay as a single house bun as I can't take on any more buns and I wouldn't have the room outside.

If all had stayed together, we were buying a new shed plus an aviary. I can only fit in what space the shed/aviary would have taken up... That's around 9 foot long by 11/12 feet wide. I can't fit in anything more :/ How big accomodation would a trio need? This is all so horrible

We are moving in 1/2 years time but that's not soon enough for this really...

Other than the weight issue, how do they get on as a group? If you could resolve the weight issue, would your preference be to keep them all together?

Presuming it was, my suggestion would be to start up a weekly weighing routine and record the weights. It would help you to know their individual 'ideal' weights, the vets may have them in their notes. Most pet bunnies are cross breeds and not bred to standards so being under the standard weight for a Harlequin isn't necessarily a problem. Once your monitoring them you could then feed extra as needed. It wouldn't need to be much, just hand feeding a few extra pellets to anyone that dropped which is easily done when your interacting with them. You could keep keep a bag of junior pellets of the brand you use, to use as 'treats' for this situation as they are more fattening.

Also, what and how to you feed? It's not necessarily that the dominant bunnies are deliberately being nasty about food, sometimes the others just feel it's rude to push in so don't put themselves forward. You may find that removing any bowls/feeders and scattering pellets across the floor means there are no hot spots and the food is more evenly distributed. Also if you are only feeding once a day, splitting it into two or three feeds may help, as some bunnies prefer a little at a time, and in a group that can mean that food they leave for latter gets scooped up by someone else that eats in one go. Again, they aren't being nasty just have different preferences.

Another thing is that outdoor bunnies in winter often need a little extra feed as they expend more energy so you may need to increase pellets over winter. If none of the others a particularly overweight (getting too much) it may be that an overall increase will help. Group bunnies can also be more active, so a bun that's moved to a group, may need slightly more than they needed previously.

So, if you'd like to keep them together and there isn't any aggression that suggests they need splitting, I would keep them together and the ones that are underweight, hand feed some extra pellets to daily or separate them into a carrier and give them pellets to munch (mix higher protein ones as an option). You should find the weight goes back on, and then regularly monitor the weight should stop the worrying and make it easier to track any changes and correct it quickly

The space you have could easily house two trios. To make the most use of the available space, what about having two joined aviaries (each 9ft x 6ft)...and put a hutch or hen-house inside raised up off the floor by about 50cm so they can use the space underneath too?

Tamsin said:

Other than the weight issue, how do they get on as a group? If you could resolve the weight issue, would your preference be to keep them all together?

Presuming it was, my suggestion would be to start up a weekly weighing routine and record the weights. It would help you to know their individual 'ideal' weights, the vets may have them in their notes. Most pet bunnies are cross breeds and not bred to standards so being under the standard weight for a Harlequin isn't necessarily a problem. Once your monitoring them you could then feed extra as needed. It wouldn't need to be much, just hand feeding a few extra pellets to anyone that dropped which is easily done when your interacting with them. You could keep keep a bag of junior pellets of the brand you use, to use as 'treats' for this situation as they are more fattening.

Also, what and how to you feed? It's not necessarily that the dominant bunnies are deliberately being nasty about food, sometimes the others just feel it's rude to push in so don't put themselves forward. You may find that removing any bowls/feeders and scattering pellets across the floor means there are no hot spots and the food is more evenly distributed. Also if you are only feeding once a day, splitting it into two or three feeds may help, as some bunnies prefer a little at a time, and in a group that can mean that food they leave for latter gets scooped up by someone else that eats in one go. Again, they aren't being nasty just have different preferences.

Another thing is that outdoor bunnies in winter often need a little extra feed as they expend more energy so you may need to increase pellets over winter. If none of the others a particularly overweight (getting too much) it may be that an overall increase will help. Group bunnies can also be more active, so a bun that's moved to a group, may need slightly more than they needed previously.

So, if you'd like to keep them together and there isn't any aggression that suggests they need splitting, I would keep them together and the ones that are underweight, hand feed some extra pellets to daily or separate them into a carrier and give them pellets to munch (mix higher protein ones as an option). You should find the weight goes back on, and then regularly monitor the weight should stop the worrying and make it easier to track any changes and correct it quickly

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Hi Tamsin,

Thanks for replying

The three girls are definetely the dominant ones. They've been ok up until just before Christmas but I always sensed a bit of 'pushing out'. Milly is definetely on her own in things especially now that Fiddlesticks has gone.

Pumpkin is an extremely submissive bun, as is Dexter. When I feed, I normally feed at least 2 egg cup fulls, which amounts to around 1/3 of my loaf tin oops I always scatter feed and never, ever use bowls. Using bowls would definetely mean pushing out of Dex, Pumpkin and Milly. I also feed them a bit of veg everyday or herbs. For 6, it usually amounts to a small bag of spring greens or a bag of tesco herbs. They get a mix of herbs/green/kale/ a carrot cut between them and hand fed/dandelions daily. I normally give them different every day. Again, it's scatter fed.

I'm not sure that they all get on, rather than tolerate. I used to think the girls loved being with mum and dad, but now they're just dominant and a little bit mean... As they are outside, I don't get to monitor their behaviour constantly, but Dexter has become very quiet and a bit withdrawn after getting quite nippy and aggressive for a few weeks (he's always been the cuddle bun so it was a shock!) Pumpkin is also very withdrawn and quiet.

I have no idea which parent the girls have got their bossiness from as neither parent has ever displayed any :lol: I'm not sure if it could be the lack of males in there, there is only 1 male to 5 girls.

I do get this gut instinct to split them... If I did, their new hutches/runs could easily be put side by side and they would still get to see eachother.

Last night was the most comfortable I've seen Pumpkin and Dexter in a time... They were both snuggled together munching hay and just looked happier.

If I were to split them, what would be appropriate for a trio? Would a 6x2x2 Happy hutch with the attatched 6x4 run and then the 4 foot extension be suitable? OH has said this morning that we could do that as it was going to cost around £350 to do the shed and aviary anyway...

Thanks again Tamsin x

abbymarysmokey said:

The space you have could easily house two trios. To make the most use of the available space, what about having two joined aviaries (each 9ft x 6ft)...and put a hutch or hen-house inside raised up off the floor by about 50cm so they can use the space underneath too?

Click to expand...

The only problem with the aviary is that for now, the buns being split would mean that I'd have to buy a hutch/run combo. This would take up some of the budget for the aviary that we had... The aviary wasn't due to be built until March time when we can clear the pebbles/sleepers and tree from the side of the shed. I could ask the OH but I'm not sure how up to building an aviary of that size he'd be...

When we move (which is definetely in 1-2 years time when I've finished uni this year and landed myself a full-time job), we're going to get another mortgage for a bigger house... This one is too teeny. I'm not sure if a hutch/run combo would be our best bet until we move. Then, a permanent place could be built (have my eye on some kennel/aviary combos).

It's all bit too much and confusing :/

Zahirre said:

The only problem with the aviary is that for now, the buns being split would mean that I'd have to buy a hutch/run combo. This would take up some of the budget for the aviary that we had... The aviary wasn't due to be built until March time when we can clear the pebbles/sleepers and tree from the side of the shed. I could ask the OH but I'm not sure how up to building an aviary of that size he'd be...

When we move (which is definetely in 1-2 years time when I've finished uni this year and landed myself a full-time job), we're going to get another mortgage for a bigger house... This one is too teeny. I'm not sure if a hutch/run combo would be our best bet until we move. Then, a permanent place could be built (have my eye on some kennel/aviary combos).

It's all bit too much and confusing :/

Click to expand...

If you build the aviary/ies using panels (usually about 6ftx 3ft each) you can just unscrew them and take them with you when you move

abbymarysmokey said:

If you build the aviary/ies using panels (usually about 6ftx 3ft each) you can just unscrew them and take them with you when you move

Click to expand...

Just spoke to OH...

He said your idea is much better than mine He said that it'll take him a weekend to knock everything down and then he could build the aviary.

He said that he'd pop exterior wood on the top and then felt it.

What size hutches would we need inside the aviary? Or would a 4x4 playhouse be ok? I think I'd rather a playhouse than a hutch... The flooring would be slabs and OH said he'd make a sort of plastic covering for the whole of the aviary to stop rain/snow getting in which could be rolled and tied up so they'd have access to the aviary 24/7.

Wow... this is exciting!

ETA: What do I do until March time? I can leave Milly in with the others for the moment and keep an eye on her, so those 4 can have the shed. I don't have the funds to buy a full 6ft run combo. Would my 5foot emergency hutch do for a month or two for Pumpkin and Dexter? (they are on the small side for their breed) and I could get the OH to build a run to attach to it... so probably 5x5 which they could have access to. Would this be ok for just a month or two? I don't want to keep them indoor for much longer... Although the bathroom is cool, it's still warm even with windows open and they are struggling a bit in there...

A 4x4 playhouse would be fine, but would take up a bit more room because you'd have to have it sitting on the floor rather than raised up on legs. In theory a 6ft x 2ft hutch should be fine for a trio, although an 8ft one would obviously be better.

This is one of my 6ft x 9ft aviaries, with a 6ft x 2ft hutch inside (the buns are large...one is a giant cross and the other a frenchie cross):

abbymarysmokey said:

A 4x4 playhouse would be fine, but would take up a bit more room because you'd have to have it sitting on the floor rather than raised up on legs. In theory a 6ft x 2ft hutch should be fine for a trio, although an 8ft one would obviously be better.

This is one of my 6ft x 9ft aviaries, with a 6ft x 2ft hutch inside (the buns are large...one is a giant cross and the other a frenchie cross):

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Ah, I see what you mean now... A hutch does look like it'll be better

Forget the emergency 5 foot hutch... Just found someone selling a 6ft one second hand within my budget

good luck with everything! vibes for the buns

Buns seem to be doing ok at the moment Pumpkin, as usual is super nervous and not mega keen on strokes... BUT - she did eat some pellets out of my hand! First time ever!!!! Was so happy!

Dexie, is as usual being his cuddly self... eating all his pellets out of my hand and he's even been trying to pinch some extra Fenugreeks!!!!:lol:

But, I thought that I would take some pictures and see what you all thought...

This is Pumpkin, didn't manage to get her stretched out as she's not too keen on jumping about in front of me... But this is her... (please excuse the bathroom... they've made quite a mess!!!!)



This is her sort of stretched out...




And this is Dexter....




And a stretchy out one...




What do you all think? Do they look really bad????

Dexter looks fine in the pictures, Pumpkin looks like she could be underweight but it could be the angle. Fur makes it so hard to tell as it evens out the angles you'd see on a less fluffy animal that was under weight, you really need hands on.

Tamsin said:

Dexter looks fine in the pictures, Pumpkin looks like she could be underweight but it could be the angle. Fur makes it so hard to tell as it evens out the angles you'd see on a less fluffy animal that was under weight, you really need hands on.

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Thanks for replying again Tamsin, I do really appreciate it! Especially at half 2 in the morning!

I upped their pellet by a small amount yesterday and am going to add a few extra pellets today. I sat in the bathroom with them and hand fed them both I feel really chuffed as it's the first time Pumkin has accepted being hand fed

They've also recieved some fenugreeks, an few inches of carrot each and a handful of spring greens. They have also been going through hay like I've never seen! They ate a whole storage box just yesterday! I think they're enjoying being able to eat! Although... I do need to make sure I feed them treats at exactly the same time, otherwise, Dexter tries to steal it from Pumpkin's mouth! :lol:

I think you're right though, Dexter just feels a bit lean (think I over-panicked the other night) but Pumpkin does feel a lot thinner. She's a very furry bun but she feels too lean underneath it all. Wish I could get her to perriscope so I can get a better picture.

We're going to sort out the emergency hutch this afternoon and OH is going to build a run to attatch to it this week... He's also said he'll bring forward doing the aviary to Feb time so that Dexter and Pumpkin aren't stuck in a 5ft hutch for too long.

Then, I'm going to rebond one of the girls to Pumpkin and Dexter and have 2 trios. The aviary will be around 11/12ft by around 12ft. So that would make the space for them, if halfed down the middle, 5.5/6ft by 12ft. Would this be ok for a trio, with a raised hutch, like Abby said?

That amount of space sounds great for a trio, 12' is a nice long run I agree about the raised hutch, that way they get the space underneath too.

Once you're happy with how they feel, stick them on the scales, it's so much easier to compare. Sometimes I look at Scamp and think he's lost weight, but he's the same when weighed, just he moults in patterns that maybe him look under.