Update He's Gone - we are devastated, UTI (who knows)

Following on from this thread http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?327664-2nd-U-D-not-broken-toes-weeing-blood!

I have tried searching UTI on here but can never find anything on this search function! We want to go to the emergency vet asap but need to know what to ask and what treatment co-Co should have? Is it plain ol' baytril what sort of dose for a 2.5kg bunny and should he have stronger painkiller he's had 1.4mls of cat metacam! As he hasn't eaten should he now have some gut stimulant as well?

I'm now thinking he didn't crash into anything at all and just has the start of the UtI!

What makes you think it's a UTI ? Are there not injuries indicating an accident ?

Baytril is usually effective, dose rate is 10mg/kg/12hrs if given orally

Has abdominal injury been ruled out ?

I wouldn't automatically presume it's a UTI. What is he caught himself doing something, and that is causing the blood. Equally, it could be a kidney stone or something more problematical. For a UTI though my vet prescribes Baytril or Septrin. I'm not sure of the doses for individual bunnies but because Baytril is most effective when dosed once a day.

I would suggest asking for narcotics to be administered though because the Metacam does not seem to be sufficient.

Contrary to the original info I was given and from what the vet said there are no obvious signs if trauma!! I still couldnt really see the eye nick?! My friend just assumed he had hurt himself because she saw him charge down the garden at top speed and into the shed then saw him flopping in the hay basket one side then the other! Having quizzed further, she hadn't noticed his behaviour prior to him running up the garden! He was fine this morning behaving normally! There is some red staining on the fur near his willy and when we flipped him over we could see it had come from the little pink bit where I presume his willy pops out?! He is dry underneath! I was only guessing at UTI as I know that can result in blood in urine?! The vet felt him all over for injury and couldnt find anything, but I don't know if that would be sufficient to tell if he had abdominal injuries? My friend said she based her theory on banging his head based on the fact he had a small cut on his eyelid not because there is evidence of it!

He is drinking little and often by himself but not eating or pooing :?

So how do we get a wee sample exactly? I'd like to try and get one to take with us for analysis!

No change over night and he seems to be straining to go but nothing not even wees off to the vets in a few minutes! I'm praying we get a vet who knows what they're doing!

We saw yet another new vet, but she seemed much better than most! Co-Co has been admitted (with Matilda) as they want to get a wee sample to see if he does have a UTI. She couldnt feel any obvious problems but said if we get no joy from the wee test then she would consider doing a scan to get a better idea if there is anything internal going on. She said she would wait for the wee sample before administering any more meds so they don't interfere with the sample results, then he's having the works stronger painkiller, gut stimulant and fluids etc. Poor little man looks so forlorn

Update: Yesterday evening Co-Cos owner spoke to the vet and made it very clear she was concerned at the lack of meds, so when she got there the vet gave him a shot of vetergesic! She also showed Matilda&Twinks how to administer it by injection and she has 2 days worth (0.4ml twice daily). She was also given 3 days worth of Baytril to give orally (0.3ml twice daily). The vet said while the urine sample did not show anything unusual with changes to the phosphates, calcium etc Co-Co did pass blood while he was there, it's a bit unclear as to whether this was actually tested and proved to be blood!! Without anything else to go on the vet wanted to try the baytril hoping he has cystitis and that it will clear it up in a few days. If not, Co-Co must go back for a scan.

Co-Co is still not eating for himself and has stopped drinking so he is being syringe fed recovery and cooled boiled water. He sits in the same spot looking depressed with eyes half shut. When he is picked up and placed on the table for meds his eyes are open fully and he tolerates it for a bit before getting angry and digging and biting the towel, so he still has fight in him, he is not floppy. His owner is staying off work to look after him and Im staying there over night, last night we were up through the night trying to get some fluids into him, but he prefers to hold it in his mouth then let it dribble out! Is there a way to get him to swallow? obviously we are conscious of not wanting to put it too far down incase he chokes.

It's only been 20hours since the first dose of Baytril, if it is straightforward cystitis how long should it be before he shows signs of improvement?

How long would people leave it before going back to the vet?

If he goes back we will ask to be allowed to give him sub cut fluids as we are already injecting the vetergesic.

If there is no improvement I'm thinking we should ask for a scan/xray, bloods and back teeth check I presume all 3 could be done under sedation?

Is there anything else we can do or consider doing?

Thank you!

To be honest, when mine have had cystitis, after the first dose of Metacam, within a relatively short period of time, they clearly feel more comfortable.

What you have to work out now is if he isn't eating because he is hurting or if he isn't eating because the vetergesic has spaced him out. Not an easy task.

I totally agree about the Sub Cut fluids and those tests. Probably, the sooner the better, because the more depleted he gets, the harder it will be for him to come round and recover from it.

I still think it's pain because he does loud teeth grinding when he's picked up and handled just before he's given the pain relief, then after they kick in it stops and he's quite dozy. So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place, when the pain relief wears off he's in pain and wont eat and when it kicks in he's too dozy to eat. The vet said she would prefer not to give the metacam as that will irritate his stomach and, to be honest, it didn't seem strong enough!

He's still straining when he tries to wee, his owner has said he did a small amout earlier today (and 4 little poos!) and it was not red stained, Im taking that as a positive in that he's not blocked up, which I know would be very serious. I wish we could get more fluid into him to see if he's just dehydrated or really is struggling to go? We've decided if there is no change by tomorrow morning he must go back for all the other checks! Do you think we should phone this afternoon and ask if they will give us some fluids to administer tonight?

I was in your Pet Clinic at lunchtime to get some Fibreplex!

Is that the first time you went in there?

I would say fluids today would be essential to be honest. What Metacam dose was he on and what amount/type of metacam?

I don't think it sounds like a straight forward UTI with those symptoms to be honest. I would be maybe thinking kidney stones on the move.

Sky-O said:

Is that the first time you went in there?

I would say fluids today would be essential to be honest. What Metacam dose was he on and what amount/type of metacam?

I don't think it sounds like a straight forward UTI with those symptoms to be honest. I would be maybe thinking kidney stones on the move.

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I've popped in once or twice before for a few bits and bobs

The vet prescribed 0.6ml of cat metacam which is really low for a 2.6kg bunny we realised he was still in pain and gave an extra 0.8ml (1.4mls) but that didnt stop him tooth grinding either. Do you think its worth going back to metacam at a higher dose so that he doesnt have the drowzyness? The vet was reluctant to give metacam because of the stomach issue but I asked if Zantac was an option to help counteract stomach irritation. She actually didnt want to give any pain relief but under protest gave us the Vetergesic because that, given by injection, wouldn't cause the same issues.

I was googling all sorts of stuff through the night and came to various conclusions including kidney stones, I'm hoping they would show up in a scan?

My only other potential theory is that the Baytril dose is too low. It is a 2.5% solution (25mg/ml) and he's only been given 0.3ml x2 daily a total of 0.6ml which is only 15mg! According to Janes effective dose of 10mg/kg he should be on nearly twice that at 26mg approx 1ml Should we phone the vet and ask if we can up tonights dose to 0.7ml which would make it up to 1ml for the 24hrs?! Can you recall what dose you were giving your bunnies?

We haven't used Baytril here for ages, sorry. I have no memory, although, actually, vague recollection of my 1.4kg nethie having 0.6mls of Baytril, once a day (bcause it's most effective when dosed once a day). I can't remember what he was on that for though (was about 3 years ago). I don't know what concentration it was and I would only adjust the dose with the ok from a vet.

Yes, kidney stones and sludge would show up on an x-ray (and be really interesting so you should ask to see them).

Would it be worthwhile discussing with your vet about dog metacam, and potentially injecting it, but also using it in conjunction with the vetergesic to start with, to try and not ever get that drop off effect where he is in pain?

This really does sound too 'extreme' to be a simple UTI, to be honest.

So in effect your little nethie was on the same dose as a big dwarf lop and he's having the small dose spread into 2 smaller ones :? Ive also re-read Janes dose and she said for 12hrs not 24!! I think our vets have a later surgery tonight so I think I will try and give them a call! To discuss the change in painkiller and increase in baytril hopefully one of the partners will be on tonight! oh have to go Shes taking him in he's deteriorated so I want to be there....

Valerie had a really bad UTI, she was put on large doses of Septrin for 2 weeks and it took around 4 or 5 days for her to start improving. Not sure if that helps at all as too tired to read all the posts

Yes thank you Liz it does! Most things I've read and heard so far suggest a UTI should clear up quite quickly, so it gives is hope that it still could be that rather than something more sinister!

Well he has been admitted and straight on to IV fluids and opiate painkiller! He will also have injected Baytril. His ears, which have been normal temp, were roasting hot so his temp will also be taken! This time round he really did not want his lower abdomen touched at all!! He will be having an X-ray later this evening! I'm so worried for him he is so gentle and I love him like my own! The vet also said if they can't figure it out tonight and by the morning, he will be refered to a specialist! She didn't give names but said there is one near Chelmsford (news to me!!) one at Romford and one at Newmarket. Is the one at Newmarket the one Parsnipbun uses?!

I hope they can help make him feel more comfortable.

I would ask for William (I think it is?) At Wylies in Upminster or Parsnipbun's vet, but I believe she is in Cambridge, not Newmarket. might be worth researching that and taking the info with you so you get a referral to the place you want.

Poor bunny We got impatient waiting for antibiotics to kick in so after 3 days opted for a US which was completely normal! It was a couple of days after that before she seemed any better.

I remember going to a specialist in Romford about 10 years ago. I wonder if it is the same vet. I didn't like them as I wanted to send both bunnies as they were bonded and they refused saying they didn;t have space :roll:

My vet is Cambridge . .

Cambridge Veterinary Services (aka John Grieves vets)
89 Cherry Hinton Rd

01223 249331

Insist on Mrs Marion Ford . . she is totally awesome



The Newmarket specialists she is saying MAY be the Animal Health Trust . . but they really do NOT do rabbits . .

Boudicca said:

Yes thank you Liz it does! Most things I've read and heard so far suggest a UTI should clear up quite quickly, so it gives is hope that it still could be that rather than something more sinister!

Well he has been admitted and straight on to IV fluids and opiate painkiller! He will also have injected Baytril. His ears, which have been normal temp, were roasting hot so his temp will also be taken! This time round he really did not want his lower abdomen touched at all!! He will be having an X-ray later this evening! I'm so worried for him he is so gentle and I love him like my own! The vet also said if they can't figure it out tonight and by the morning, he will be refered to a specialist! She didn't give names but said there is one near Chelmsford (news to me!!) one at Romford and one at Newmarket. Is the one at Newmarket the one Parsnipbun uses?!

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Ooo-err, I don't know of a bunny specialist at Chelmsford so I'd be interested to find out who that is supposed to be! The Romford one is probably Lawton in Harold Hill - although a lot of people on here really rate William at Wylie in Upminster, who is also a bunny specialist...he'd be my personal preference down this way.

Injected baytril is better than oral, it has been shown to be more effective...when mine have had injected baytril though they have had up to 20mg/kg, my vets say that they are now told that baytril is best given once a day rather than twice (it works on peak concentration not overall conc) and that really aggressive doses up to 20 mg/kg give really good results - I'm not sure they'd even do anything lower than 10mg/kg any more, although I might be wrong.

Good luck, I hope the little love picks up soon and that they can get to the bottom of his problems xxx

Santa said:

Ooo-err, I don't know of a bunny specialist at Chelmsford so I'd be interested to find out who that is supposed to be! The Romford one is probably Lawton in Harold Hill - although a lot of people on here really rate William at Wylie in Upminster, who is also a bunny specialist...he'd be my personal preference down this way.

Injected baytril is better than oral, it has been shown to be more effective...when mine have had injected baytril though they have had up to 20mg/kg, my vets say that they are now told that baytril is best given once a day rather than twice (it works on peak concentration not overall conc) and that really aggressive doses up to 20 mg/kg give really good results - I'm not sure they'd even do anything lower than 10mg/kg any more, although I might be wrong.

Good luck, I hope the little love picks up soon and that they can get to the bottom of his problems xxx

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Ooh yes it was Harold Hill we went to. Hopefully they have a different receptionist to the one I spoke to 10 years ago, miserable woman :lol: